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Asylum seekers waiting 10 years for decision

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    #122
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    A few posts back you said this 42 million was a worldwide figure.

    Which is it ?

    Its a world wide figure, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/19/world-refugee-numbers-1999-unhcr the country with the higest number of Refugees is Pakistan with 1.6 million.


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    #123
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....well the usual line is that the defence lawyers present cases they know to be fraudulent in order to make money. However if you want to say the state lawyers are in it to make a few bob too, in a grand lawyer conspiracy, feel free.

    Sad reply, you were the one inferring that her case was pro bono, as though once her lawyers didnt charge then there was no cost involved. You were also the one who brought her case up, I would happily avoid it because though she was a fraud I wouldn't use a single fraud case as being representative of all asylum/refugee claims.


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    #124
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Sad reply, you were the one inferring that her case was pro bono, as though once her lawyers didnt charge then there was no cost involved. You were also the one who brought her case up, I would happily avoid it because though she was a fraud I wouldn't use a single fraud case as being representative of all asylum/refugee claims.


    Wha?


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    #125
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,261 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    I know someone that worked for the ORAC and you wouldnt believe the nonsense that they have to deal with. Even if they can point out lies in the persons story the judicial review can just ignore it.
    Many of their colleagues were planning on retiring abroad because of some of the shady characters granted asylum.

    That said there were other clear cases were people had been tortured and these people would stay anywhere reguardless of the standard of tje accomadation rather than go back to what they fled.


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    #126
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    We need better border control. Anyone entering the country from outside the EU, without a visa needs to be detained and interviewed at length (and fairly) about their reason for being in the country. If they are a genuine asylum seeker then they should be allowed into the country.
    If not, back on the first return flight they go.

    If the numbers of asylum seekers needing support were reduced, the conditions should be improved.

    Ireland are far too soft in my opinion. We're seen as an easy touch and it's time to toughen up.


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    #127
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I know someone that worked for the ORAC and you wouldnt believe the nonsense that they have to deal with. Even if they can point out lies in the persons story the judicial review can just ignore it.
    Many of their colleagues were planning on retiring abroad because of some of the shady characters granted asylum.

    That said there were other clear cases were people had been tortured and these people would stay anywhere reguardless of the standard of tje accomadation rather than go back to what they fled.

    The High Court is not an Appeal, it can only look at how the decision was made not the substance of the decision.


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    #128
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ash23 wrote: »
    We need better border control. Anyone entering the country from outside the EU, without a visa needs to be detained and interviewed at length (and fairly) about their reason for being in the country. If they are a genuine asylum seeker then they should be allowed into the country.
    If not, back on the first return flight they go.

    If the numbers of asylum seekers needing support were reduced, the conditions should be improved.

    Ireland are far too soft in my opinion. We're seen as an easy touch and it's time to toughen up.


    "IRELAND’S IMMIGRATION SERVICES are more likely to reject applications from asylum seekers than all but a handful of the authorities in other EU countries.
    New figures published by the EU this morning shows that of the 1,625 asylum cases ruled on by Irish authorities last year, only 140 applications were granted some kind of positive protection – an approval rate of only 8.6 per cent."
    http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-asylum-seekers-eu-955725-Jun2013/


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    #129
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Nodin wrote: »
    "IRELAND’S IMMIGRATION SERVICES are more likely to reject applications from asylum seekers than all but a handful of the authorities in other EU countries.
    New figures published by the EU this morning shows that of the 1,625 asylum cases ruled on by Irish authorities last year, only 140 applications were granted some kind of positive protection – an approval rate of only 8.6 per cent."
    http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-asylum-seekers-eu-955725-Jun2013/


    After ten years of putting them up though and allowing countless appeals and children being born with Irish citizenship.

    Turnaround should be immediate. Decision made within a day or two. Not dragging out the process for years and years costing the government a fortune, tying up the courts and legal system and causing families to live in conditions as described. Having kids being reared here and then sent away.

    The process needs to be much quicker and stricter.


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    #130
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ash23 wrote: »
    After ten years of putting them up though and allowing countless appeals and children being born with Irish citizenship. .

    ...that loophole was closed years ago.
    ash23 wrote: »
    Turnaround should be immediate. Decision made within a day or two. Not dragging out the process for years and years costing the government a fortune, tying up the courts and legal system and causing families to live in conditions as described. Having kids being reared here and then sent away.

    The process needs to be much quicker and stricter.

    ....so goal post shift from 'we're too soft' to 'we're too slow'.


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    #131
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Systemic Risk wrote: »
    Should they just be happy we took them in at all and are providing for them?

    This.

    The alternative being imprisonment or death in their home countries...

    Beggars can't be choosers.


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    #132
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    ash23 wrote: »
    Turnaround should be immediate. Decision made within a day or two.

    The process needs to be much quicker and stricter.

    It would be impossible to make a decision that quickly in most cases, and probably illegal too as each application must be assesed and investigated.
    That said once a decision is made there should be one single appeal and thats it.
    there is no way that dragging it out ten years can be justified.


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    #133
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,261 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    infosys wrote: »
    The High Court is not an Appeal, it can only look at how the decision was made not the substance of the decision.

    Im no expert Im just repeating what my friend told me so I may have my terms wrong.


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    #134
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...that loophole was closed years ago.


    ....so goal post shift from 'we're too soft' to 'we're too slow'.

    If the parents have spent 3 out of 4 years prior to the birth, the child can claim Irish citizenship. When appeal upon appeals are being allowed it's easy for people to delay and then their children have a "link" to Ireland and can get Irish citizenship. I'm not saying they're wrong to do it. I'd probably do the same. But it's not fair on these kids who have to live in these conditions. But nor is it fair to burden our state with the costs associated either.

    We're too soft and too slow. Too soft as in we put up numerous people for numerous years, allowing indefinite appeals.

    You were taking it in terms of granted asylum. I was discussing the process as per the OP. And the length of the process. No "goal posts" as you put it. The end result is not the problem nor is it the discussion.

    If you were seeking asylum falsely, where would you go? The country that will detain you indefinitely while they look into your claim and put you on the first plane out if denied? Or the country which will give you food, a roof over your head and a weekly allowance for a decade?


    It might not be all it cracks up to be when they've been living the reality for a couple of years but as an incentive, it sounds pretty good on paper and I think that's part of the problem.


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    #135
    galah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭galah


    ash23 wrote: »
    If the parents have spent 3 out of 4 years prior to the birth, the child can claim Irish citizenship. When appeal upon appeals are being allowed it's easy for people to delay and then their children have a "link" to Ireland and can get Irish citizenship. I'm not saying they're wrong to do it. I'd probably do the same. But it's not fair on these kids who have to live in these conditions. But nor is it fair to burden our state with the costs associated either.

    only up to 2005: (citizensinformation.ie)
    Born in the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004

    Entitled to Irish citizenship or you are an Irish citizen

    Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005

    Entitled to Irish citizenship if your parents are Irish. Entitled to Irish citizenship, if your parents are foreign nationals legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth.


    What I don't get is why we can't let asylum seekers work to improve their lifestyle? It could be fairly easily controlled (special permits for example), government would get extra taxes instead of just spending money, and it would help potential asylum candidates to integrate much easier into Irish society as well.


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    #136
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Well according to citizens info
    Other foreign national parents of children born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by their having 3 out of the previous 4 years reckonable residence in the island of Ireland immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and can apply for a certificate of nationality - see 'How to apply' below.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

    Citizenship is not automatic and must be applied for but if your parents have been living in Ireland for 3/4 years before the child is born or can prove a "link" to Ireland the child is eligible to apply for citizenship. I'd imagine being schooled in Ireland and living in Ireland for 10 years would be enough of a link if the parents hadn't been living in Ireland for 3 years prior to the birth.


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    #137
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    ash23 wrote: »
    If the parents have spent 3 out of 4 years prior to the birth, the child can claim Irish citizenship. When appeal upon appeals are being allowed it's easy for people to delay and then their children have a "link" to Ireland and can get Irish citizenship. I'm not saying they're wrong to do it. I'd probably do the same. But it's not fair on these kids who have to live in these conditions. But nor is it fair to burden our state with the costs associated either.

    We're too soft and too slow. Too soft as in we put up numerous people for numerous years, allowing indefinite appeals.

    You were taking it in terms of granted asylum. I was discussing the process as per the OP. And the length of the process. No "goal posts" as you put it. The end result is not the problem nor is it the discussion.

    If you were seeking asylum falsely, where would you go? The country that will detain you indefinitely while they look into your claim and put you on the first plane out if denied? Or the country which will give you food, a roof over your head and a weekly allowance for a decade?


    It might not be all it cracks up to be when they've been living the reality for a couple of years but as an incentive, it sounds pretty good on paper and I think that's part of the problem.

    The 3 out of 4 years, must be legal applying for asylum is not reckonable for citizenship of either the parent or their children. Students on stamp 2 have the same issue.


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    #138
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    infosys wrote: »
    Its a world wide figure, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/19/world-refugee-numbers-1999-unhcr the country with the higest number of Refugees is Pakistan with 1.6 million.

    That's going to change. was reading this morning about Syria. Millions and millions displaced internally and millions more outside. many outside don't register because they fear that the government will conviscate their homes if they are declared refugees.
    Apparently it's the largest refugee crises since Rwanda.


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    #139
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ash23 wrote: »
    Well according to citizens info



    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

    Citizenship is not automatic and must be applied for but if your parents have been living in Ireland for 3/4 years before the child is born or can prove a "link" to Ireland the child is eligible to apply for citizenship. I'd imagine being schooled in Ireland and living in Ireland for 10 years would be enough of a link if the parents hadn't been living in Ireland for 3 years prior to the birth.

    It's not automatic and has to be applied for. You claimed it was automatic.


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    #140
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's not automatic and has to be applied for. You claimed it was automatic.

    If a person satisfies the rules they are a citizen simple. They like every other Citizen must apply for a passport but they are a citizen.

    Any child of a citizen born in ireland is a citizen. Any child of a citizen born abroad must register on the foregin births register and that person is a citizen on registration.

    Any person born of a non citizen in ireland is a citizen if one of their parents is legally resident in ireland for 3 out of tje previous 4 years. Certain types of residents are excluded, students on stamp 2 and Asylum seekers to name two.


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    #141
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's not automatic and has to be applied for. You claimed it was automatic.


    No I didn't.

    What I said was
    After ten years of putting them up though and allowing countless appeals and children being born with Irish citizenship.

    If that inferred automatic then my bad but that wasn't what I meant.


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    #142
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ash23 wrote: »
    No I didn't.

    What I said was

    If that inferred automatic then my bad but that wasn't what I meant.

    "children being born with Irish citizenship" doesn't infer, it baldly states. We'll file it away beside your "Ireland is soft" notion.


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    #143
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Nodin wrote: »
    "children being born with Irish citizenship" doesn't infer, it baldly states. We'll file it away beside your "Ireland is soft" notion.

    So are you actually looking to discuss the topic or just twist what anyone says, make up your own version of it even if they clarify what they mean and then be a patronising git about it?


    If it's the latter then you're doing a stand up job.


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    #144
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    It should take 6 months or 12 months tops.

    If it's taking 10 years is either a completely incompetent system or there's just one person processing 10,000+ applications?


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    #145
    Anahita
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Anahita


    I am familiar with situations where children are living in direct provision for 8+ years. There is a definite 'syndrome' or set of characteristics that develop when children are raised long term in this type of setting. We see it in school. I can't go into too much detail but if these long-term residents of direct provision centres do 'get their papers' the results of the lifetime institutionalisation of these children will be our problem to deal with long term. These needs will also cost money.

    I understand that the application and appeal process will in some ways be conducted in tandem to expedite cases as much as possible. In my own experience also, when some asylum seekers get a denial of their leave to remain they abscond within the Republic. They simply change their identities, go underground and register their children in different schools, etc... they do not participate in the economy by paying taxes, have no access to social welfare and work in the black market. The children suffer the most, in my experience often don't get to say goodbye to their friends or have any continuity in their education.

    Does this anger you? Shock you? Disgust you? Do you want these 'illegals' out of Ireland? How dare they live and work here illegally taking 'Irish' jobs and not contribute to the society in which they live!! Outrageous!


    Well....read this: http://www.thejournal.ie/immigration-reform-us-gilmore-irish-illegals-874103-Apr2013/
    Only they are not called 'illegals' in America, they're call 'undocumented.' Samesies, I think?


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    #146
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ash23 wrote: »
    So are you actually looking to discuss the topic or just twist what anyone says, make up your own version of it even if they clarify what they mean and then be a patronising git about it?


    If it's the latter then you're doing a stand up job.


    I didn't twist anything you said. Firstly you stated
    Ireland are far too soft in my opinion. We're seen as an easy touch and it's time to toughen up.

    This is factually incorrect, and I and others pointed that out.

    Secondly you stated
    After ten years of putting them up though and allowing countless appeals and children being born with Irish citizenship

    This is factually incorrect, and I and others pointed this out. Had you just acknowledged the fact in either case and moved on, it wouldn't have been raised again.


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    #147
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    It should take 6 months or 12 months tops.

    If it's taking 10 years is either a completely incompetent system or there's just one person processing 10,000+ applications?


    ...the former, from what I can gather. There are cases sub judice at the moment re what appear to be "mass" refusals in batches of applications, afaik.


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    #148
    RealistSpy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭RealistSpy


    The economy is bad so let us blame the Asylum Seekers.
    Let us all point the fingers and not take any responsibilities.
    Let us detach Ireland from the rest of the world and only care about "WE".

    I seriously wonder how the country would be if we deport all immigrants and other countries do like wise.
    I imagined a world where Africa nor Eire was not invaded.
    I wonder what the world would be like if it was the other way around.

    What would you do to survive and have a better life?

    Poem by RealistSpy {Is é an domhan mo thír agus Is é mo reiligiún a bheith go maith}, still learning Irish.


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    #149
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Nodin wrote: »
    I didn't twist anything you said. Firstly you stated


    This is factually incorrect, and I and others pointed that out.

    Secondly you stated



    This is factually incorrect, and I and others pointed this out. Had you just acknowledged the fact in either case and moved on, it wouldn't have been raised again.


    To clarify (again) I think Ireland are too soft. In many ways. In regard to the op, the length of the processing is caused in part because of the unwillingness to just give a no and stick to it. Allowing endless appeals and allowing the process to drag on and on, while supporting asylum seekers is soft.
    It's akin to saying no and then saying "well maybe". And doing it over and over. Not standing over a decision or following through is soft. I fail to see what is so hard to grasp about that point.

    As for the children and citizenship remark, I apologised for the lack of clarity and again explained in more detail. There were things I didn't know, for example that while waiting for asylum it wasn't counted as being resident in relation to the 3 out of 4 years so im glad I was informed about that. It's a pity it was in such a patronising and arrogant way though.


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    #150
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ash23 wrote: »
    To clarify (again) I think Ireland are too soft. In many ways. .

    No, not at all.
    ash23 wrote: »
    In regard to the op, the length of the processing is caused in part because of the unwillingness to just give a no and stick to it. Allowing endless appeals and allowing the process to drag on and on, while supporting asylum seekers is soft..

    You evidently think life here as an asylum seeker is soft, which is part of the problem.


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    #151
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    delthedriver wrote: »
    Attacking a poster ?:)

    Of course you are entitled to your opinion, however there was nothing passive nor aggressive in my post :)

    Perhaps a little realism is needed:)
    'Course you were being passive-aggressive. And you've done it again in the above post. Every dig you make about people having an open mind regarding asylum-seekers, you follow with a :). It's plain as day. Just try to consider some of them are coming from desperate circumstances and wouldn't be living in cramped conditions on €20 per week if that weren't so. Surely you have some compassion for your fellow human beings?


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