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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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    #1022
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Mr Whirly wrote: »
    Would all the people championing Irish here be happy to pay an optional tax out of there wages/dole to pay for the preservation of the language? If not why do you expect the majority of people to have to contribute towards it at the moment?
    Because we are citizens of the Irish Republic and we live our lives under the Irish Constitution. Just like you, I assume?


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    #1023
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    awec wrote: »
    Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ireland

    On the right hand side with the bar chart, but the pdf citation isn't loading for me. I just took that directly off the page.

    It did open for me, its an interesting document, though I doubt it is too accurate, for example it says that 11% of the Irish population have Irish as their mother tounge.
    I doubt either of us believe that is true.


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    #1024
    Mr Whirly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Mr Whirly


    Coles wrote: »
    Because we are citizens of the Irish Republic and we live our lives under the Irish Constitution. Just like you, I assume?

    It's also a democracy where the majority rules. You are a small minority costing the majority a large amount of money. Do you not think it would be better if people want to indulge themselves in an expensive pass time they should pay for it themselves?


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    #1025
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    An Coilean wrote: »
    It did open for me, its an interesting document, though I doubt it is too accurate, for example it says that 11% of the Irish population have Irish as their mother tounge.
    I doubt either of us believe that is true.
    Is it just a sample of 1000 or something?


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    #1026
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    awec wrote: »
    Is it just a sample of 1000 or something?

    If even, they had stats for every country in Europe, so I doubt there was a very big sample in any given country.


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    #1027
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Mr Whirly wrote: »
    It's also a democracy where the majority rules. You are a small minority costing the majority a large amount of money. Do you not think it would be better if people want to indulge themselves in an expensive pass time they should pay for it themselves?
    The number of people who don't value the Irish Language is minute. You guys are the minority.

    And if you are interested in seeing just how little we (the taxpayers) actually pay towards promoting the Irish language then have a read of this.

    A shamefully small amount.


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    #1028
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What do Irish-only speakers do when it comes to getting jobs?


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    #1029
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Coles wrote: »
    The number of people who don't value the Irish Language is minute. You guys are the minority.

    And if you are interested in seeing just how little we (the taxpayers) actually pay towards promoting the Irish language then have a read of this.

    A shamefully small amount.
    Can you back this up?


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    #1030
    Mr Whirly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Mr Whirly


    Coles wrote: »
    The number of people who don't value the Irish Language is minute. You guys are the minority.

    And if you are interested in seeing just how little we (the taxpayers) actually pay towards promoting the Irish language then have a read of this.

    A shamefully small amount.

    Have a look at the poll there.

    I agree that it should be taught in schools as an optional subject.

    Any amount of funding outside school or college education is too much for my liking. I don't ask for funding for my hobbies.


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    #1031
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,044 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Coles wrote: »
    :eek: You guys are never going to learn! Every time I publish a graph you challenge the figures. And every time they turn out to be above reproach. Every time.

    The figures are available from the State Examinations Commission.

    Well, when you have a statisitc for boards.ie useage in the year 1976 in one of them, people are going to ask questions.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1032
    Lightbulb Sun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭Lightbulb Sun


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Well, when you have a statisitc for boards.ie useage in the year 1976 in one of them, people are going to ask questions.

    That graph wasn't anything to do with usage of boards.ie in 1976, it was a graph on Department of Education data.


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    #1033
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Lightbulb Sun wrote: »
    That graph wasn't anything to do with usage of boards.ie in 1976, it was a graph on Department of Education data.
    And boards's reaction. Which I'm pretty sure didn't exist at the time.


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    #1034
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,044 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Lightbulb Sun wrote: »
    That graph wasn't anything to do with usage of boards.ie in 1976, it was a graph on Department of Education data.

    Well, I'm taking An Coilen's logic on this one: I have only one source and it says what I want to, so therefore I'm right.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1035
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Coles wrote: »
    :eek: You guys are never going to learn! Every time I publish a graph you challenge the figures. And every time they turn out to be above reproach. Every time.

    The figures are available from the State Examinations Commission.

    Not challenging anything. Just wanted to get a source. Could you link to where you found them?


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    #1036
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Well, I'm taking An Coilen's logic on this one: I have only one source and it says what I want to, so therefore I'm right.


    Actually, my logic was, There is only one source and this is what it says, if you are claiming an alternative series of events, you will have to tell us what its based on.


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    #1037
    Lightbulb Sun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭Lightbulb Sun


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And boards's reaction. Which I'm pretty sure didn't exist at the time.

    Boards reaction being the background picture only I would presume.


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    #1038
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Lightbulb Sun wrote: »
    Boards reaction being the background picture only I would presume.
    :)


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    #1039
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Not challenging anything. Just wanted to get a source. Could you link to where you found them?
    I gave you a source. And now you want a link? You didn't even say 'please'. Or 'thanks'. Ever!

    :)'Please'?







    No? That's ok. You can send it by PM if you don't want to be seen to be polite.


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    #1040
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Coles wrote: »
    Anyway, it's your language
    Why do you insist on calling it that? It's not our language if we reject it.


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    #1041
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Coles wrote: »
    Because we are citizens of the Irish Republic and we live our lives under the Irish Constitution. Just like you, I assume?
    Ah yes: both our official languages are equal, except one language is more equal than the other.


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    #1042
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    opti0nal wrote: »
    Ah yes: both our official languages are equal, except one language is more equal than the other.

    Well no actually, the Irish Language clearly enjoys a superior position to English in the constitution.
    Irish is the First National language, English is merely accepted as a second official language.


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    #1043
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I swore I'd not be arsed with the following user but it's amusing to watch their "arguments" twist in the wind and the shops had troll food on sale* so...
    Coles wrote: »
    The number of people who don't value the Irish Language is minute. You guys are the minority.
    Then why do so many, the majority of the Irish people have so little fluency in the language? Yea I know, we and our parents need "attitude ajustment" from being lazy, thick, chavvy excuses for Irish people, barely deserving of the title and all that. If we valued it so much we wouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place. We wouldn't need Irish medium schools, they wouldn't be such a small percentage of the overall, nor we would we need the level of language support across the board. An Coilean reckons the language will be dead in twenty years. How is this possible if we all value it so much?

    Personally I'd disagree with "the sky is falling" rhetoric that comes from many in the activist camp(ironically mirrored on the anti side). Irish won't die out anytime soon. It was in freefall since 1900, but has kept pretty stable over the last two decades and I can't see that changing. I do question this paranoia among those who also claim such deep support for Irish.
    And if you are interested in seeing just how little we (the taxpayers) actually pay towards promoting the Irish language then have a read of this.
    We have and found you were utterly and completely wrong regarding TG4's budgeting, then went on a fudge about how it's not really promoting the language. In which case why not become an English language station plying the same stuff only privately funded and see how far that gets them? Hell why not switch off the subtitle machine and see how their 2% market share drops. That's just one example. You also dismissed estimates of the funding on teaching of the language from someone who has forgotten more about Irish education than you or indeed I will ever know.

    TBH I have a feeling that maybe among these ardent language activists there is a goodly chunk of them who may have more of a vested interest beyond the "cultural" than they admit to? IIRC the woman who publicly ranted at Enda Kenny over the very thought of making the language optional for the LC was the owner of an Irish language school. Others were Irish teachers of various types, another group with a vested interest that may stretch beyond the cultural. After all turkey's ain't gonna vote for Xmas.

    So Coles/An Coilean/Lightbulb Sun et al what direct benefit is the promotion of the language to you? And we're not talking of any cultural vibe here. Are you teachers, from a Gaeltacht, involved in Irish language media/promotion or such like?

    I was reading Nesf's contributions earlier and his experience of things and his support for the language on the ground and yet he was at the receiving end of the usual old denial. I was thinking; Nesf, you're banging your head against a brick wall. If it doesn't fit The Script it will be ignored, even when you and yours are clear supporters and speakers of the language. It's one reason why the language got into the near parlous state it did since the foundation of the state. Reality doesn't come easy for some and it's to the detriment of the cause on more than a few levels. Jesus on these threads I've seen Peig bloody Sayers compared to Flaubert and now we have Rosa Parks compared to some Gaelgoir making a point. "Oh we're oppressed". Ehhh no, you're not and it's beyond daft to suggest it and not a little insulting.




    *no doubt we'll revisit "innit/laziness/thick parents/not Irish enough/wibbs you're back so [insert unintelligent inanities here]etc", hell maybe even more cobbled together graphics bemoaning the other side, even ice ages, but at no point will we likely see actual concrete arguments, though hope does spring eternal.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1044
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,044 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Actually, my logic was, There is only one source and this is what it says, if you are claiming an alternative series of events, you will have to tell us what its based on.

    No, it wasn't. You said you "definitely" knew what happened. If that is so, what I base my theories on is irrelevant to the discussion.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1045
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Well no actually, the Irish Language clearly enjoys a superior position to English in the constitution.
    Irish is the First National language, English is merely accepted as a second official language.
    An absurdity which contributes greatly to the difficulties experienced by the Irish language.


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    #1046
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    We have and found you were utterly and completely wrong regarding TG4's budgeting, then went on a fudge about how it's not really promoting the language. In which case why not become an English language station plying the same stuff only privately funded and see how far that gets them? Hell why not switch off the subtitle machine and see how their 2% market share drops. That's just one example.
    Eh? Show me where I have been "completely and utterly wrong about TG4's budgeting". TG4 is a television service. It does not promote the Irish language any more than RTE promotes the English language. It provides a service to the whole population. Indeed, we have seen on this thread that even some of the most poisonous anti-Irish contributors watch it regularly for it's rugby coverage. TG4 achieve a massive amount with their budget and anyway. What more do you want? Don't you have TV3 as a privately owned English language channel? We have been through this so many times and I'm really not sure why your still attacking me.
    You also dismissed estimates of the funding on teaching of the language from someone who has forgotten more about Irish education than you or indeed I will ever know.
    I asked for a source so that I could see what is included in the figures and what is not. That's entirely fair, but despite asking numerous times you have provided nothing. You can remedy this anytime you like.
    TBH I have a feeling that maybe among these ardent language activists there is a goodly chunk of them who may have more of a vested interest beyond the "cultural" than they admit to? IIRC the woman who publicly ranted at Enda Kenny over the very thought of making the language optional for the LC was the owner of an Irish language school. Others were Irish teachers of various types, another group with a vested interest that may stretch beyond the cultural. After all turkey's ain't gonna vote for Xmas.
    And the barrel is now officially empty.

    I have no vested interest whatsoever except in so much that I love the language and I regard it as an important and integral part of our living culture. I've been clear on that too.
    So Coles/An Coilean/Lightbulb Sun et al what direct benefit is the promotion of the language to you? And we're not talking of any cultural vibe here. Are you teachers, from a Gaeltacht, involved in Irish language media/promotion or such like?
    :mad: Can you not just accept that Irish people love their language?
    I was reading Nesf's contributions earlier and his experience of things and his support for the language on the ground and yet he was at the receiving end of the usual old denial.
    Link please, or it didn't happen.
    "Oh we're oppressed". Ehhh no, you're not and it's beyond daft to suggest it and not a little insulting.
    Did anyone here say that? I don't recall it. Do you think the Irish language speaker who was handcuffed and detained for speaking Irish felt oppressed?

    Just shrill mud slinging.
    ...more cobbled together graphics...no actual concrete arguments...
    A picture speaks a thousand words.
    Picture No.1.
    Picture No.2.
    We can discuss them if you like. None of the rest of the gang seem interested...

    ...even ice ages
    I'm not sure why you keep raising Ice Ages. Are you still hawking that disgraceful claim that you are 'more Irish' than others because your ancestors were living in Ireland 11'000 years ago? It was an odd claim and I'm not sure why you thought it had any value in a discussion such as this.

    Anyway, I think it's best if we just drop it now. The link you provided has an interesting nugget and hopefully you'll accept it as the last word on the matter.
    The first humans are thought to have arrived in Ireland 9000 years ago (7000BC).

    I assume your ancestors were human?;)


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    #1047
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,044 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Well no actually, the Irish Language clearly enjoys a superior position to English in the constitution.
    Irish is the First National language, English is merely accepted as a second official language.

    In your head, maybe. Certainly not in any constitutional mind or paper.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1048
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    In your head, maybe. Certainly not in any constitutional mind or paper.
    This is deeply depressing. We've been discussing the Irish Language and the role of the Irish Language Commissioner for 700 posts and you don't understand the constitutional position of the Irish language? Oh dear Jesus.
    Article 8 of the Irish Constitution.

    The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
    The English language is recognised as a second official language.


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    #1049
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,044 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Coles wrote: »
    This is deeply depressing. We've been discussing the Irish Language and the role of the Irish Language Commissioner for 700 posts and you don't understand the constitutional position of the Irish language? Oh dear Jesus.

    Order deos not imply quality.If I use the phrase "men and women" I am not saying that men are superior.

    And even if it doesn, how would one langauge be "better" than another?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1050
    9959
    Registered Users Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    Coles wrote: »
    This is deeply depressing. We've been discussing the Irish Language and the role of the Irish Language Commissioner for 700 posts and you don't understand the constitutional position of the Irish language? Oh dear Jesus.

    As the song goes "A1 on the jukebox, but nowhere in the charts"

    In terms of Irish being the first language, perhaps one of you polyglots could explain the difference between de jure and de facto.


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    #1051
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Coles wrote: »
    Eh? Show me where I have been "completely and utterly wrong about TG4's budgeting".
    You said "their budget is composed of advertising revenue, program sales, a portion of TV licence money and a modest grant from the general budget". This was incorrect. The vast majority of their budget comes from direct government funding and amounts to over 30 million euro per annum(plus indirect funding from RTE). Ergo you were wrong.
    TG4 is a television service. It does not promote the Irish language any more than RTE promotes the English language.
    From their own mouths*PDF doc.

    TG4 is the national irish language television service. We are a public service broadcaster, established by
    statute in 1996 and funded by Government to deliver a full range of high quality Irish language content to audiences at home and abroad.

    The basis for TG4’s activities is reflected in our statutory mandate (our "objects") which is set-down in
    broadcast legislation, most recently in the Broadcasting Act 2009. Under this legislation, T64 is required to
    provide a national television broadcasting service as a free-to-air public service which is made available to the whole community on the island of Ireland. This is for the purposes of promotion and development of the Irish language.

    So wrong and mind bendingly and obviously wrong on both counts. Why you keep linking your own post reflecting this odd position is beyond me.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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