Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

Qualitymark · 31-10-2012 1:42pm

seanhalpin wrote: »

It wasn't a foreign army. At the time, it was the legitimate army of the state, that state being the UK of Great Britain and Ireland. HM forces was the the military of the whole UK.

Sort of like the Chinese army is the legitimate army of Tibet now.

Conall Cernach · 31-10-2012 1:55pm

Would the Irish poppy wearers consider wearing an Easter Lily? If not why not?

brummytom · 31-10-2012 1:56pm

Lapin wrote: »

I'm willing to bet that you have never been 'pestered' by anyone selling a poppy.

There is no in your face exposure to advertising and marketing campaigns for the poppy, unlike hundreds of other goods that you willingly purchase each year without moaning about being pestered by those you gladly buy them from.

I'm sick of this same old shítstirring tripe beong regurgitated every year by people who know little or fúckall about what they're talking about.

No one forces anyone to wear a poppy. If people want to wear one, let them off. Its their business.

Live and let live - And STFU.

I was pestered (and eventually sent to the headteacher) for refusing to wear a poppy in school. Sorry, I know I'm British so my opinion means toffee, but I found that ridiculous.

csallmighty · 31-10-2012 1:59pm

I only view the poppy as a sign of respect to the soldiers who have died. Nothing more nothing less. I'm Irish and I lived in England for a number of years and I wore a poppy as a sign of respect to those who died in ww1 and ww2, but I wouldn't wear one here in Ireland because I'd only get abuse from ignorant people.

ShiresV2 · 31-10-2012 2:18pm

Given some of the previous posts I think it's worth pointing out that Irish regiments were involved in the business of empire too. India, South Africa, Burma, Ceylon, Gibraltar, Crete, Malta, Egypt, etc.

Qualitymark · 31-10-2012 2:29pm

csallmighty wrote: »

I only view the poppy as a sign of respect to the soldiers who have died.

Used to think that, and on that basis I used to buy a poppy and wear it. I no longer think so, though; now, it seems a kind of proto-fascist imperial display, along with all the talk of "the nation" and display of Union Jack and George's Cross flags and so on.

golden lane · 31-10-2012 2:38pm

Qualitymark wrote: »

Sort of like the Chinese army is the legitimate army of Tibet now.

do they have a vote in tibet....?????

do they form a very large part of the chinese army and navy...????

do they have the freedom travel around the world....????

do the contribute a large part of running the chinese empire...????

do they have a capital city mainly built on the proceeds of that empire...????

Yamanoto · 31-10-2012 2:39pm

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Would the Irish poppy wearers consider wearing an Easter Lily? If not why not?

If the proceeds of sale were distributed solely for the benefit of those who served the Defense Forces of the State, I'd imagine many would consider it.

Nodin · 31-10-2012 2:46pm

philologos wrote: »

Again that's tripe. I don't care if you wear it or not. What I do object to is ignorance about the ....................., to move on from the past into a more stable future even if that is uncertain or unattainable.

For the fourth time - could you please answer the question -

Are you ok with the people involved with these conflicts and these incidents in particular receiving your cash?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...lagers-coverup

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...ing-uk-apology

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ore-atrocities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...detention-camp

A detailed answer please.

Nodin · 31-10-2012 2:49pm

ShiresV2 wrote: »

Given some of the previous posts I think it's worth pointing out that Irish regiments were involved in the business of empire too. India, South Africa, Burma, Ceylon, Gibraltar, Crete, Malta, Egypt, etc.

So? That makes it ok does it?

philologos · 31-10-2012 3:06pm

Nodin wrote: »

For the fourth time - could you please answer the question -

Are you ok with the people involved with these conflicts and these incidents in particular receiving your cash?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...lagers-coverup

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...ing-uk-apology

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ore-atrocities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...detention-camp

A detailed answer please.

I'm not convinced that they do. I'd have to look up or ask myself to clarify this. But in the event that they do, no I haven't an issue.

In the future PM me if you feel I've missed out on a post. I have a finite amount of time and I respond to what I can. I'll prioritize what I get PMs on.

Nodin · 31-10-2012 3:19pm

philologos wrote: »

I'm not convinced that they do. I'd have to look up or ask myself to clarify this. But in the event that they do, no I haven't an issue.

.

Poppy funds go to ex-service personnell. Therefore those who served in Kenya, Burma, Mayalasia, Uganda, Nigeria, India, Aden, Sudan, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Cyprus, Palestine and the rest are fully elegible for them. But you won't wear a lilly......

I wonder if you'd bring up the subject of African violence against the British if in Africa, or Greek violence against them with the Greeks?

I'm glad you can square the support of Empire with the christian message.

ejmaztec · 31-10-2012 3:25pm

Nodin wrote: »

Poppy funds go to ex-service personnell. Therefore those who served in Kenya, Burma, Mayalasia, Uganda, Nigeria, India, Aden, Sudan, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Cyprus, Palestine and the rest are fully elegible for them. But you won't wear a lilly......

I wonder if you'd bring up the subject of African violence against the British if in Africa, or Greek violence against them with the Greeks?

I'm glad you can square the support of Empire with the christian message.

I was under impression from previous rants on the subject, that the funds raised in Ireland stay in Ireland?

Nodin · 31-10-2012 3:28pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I was under impression from previous rants on the subject, that the funds raised in Ireland stay in Ireland?

...this may come as a shock, but you failed to note from previous rants that I don't care where the personnell involved were/are from......

ejmaztec · 31-10-2012 3:37pm

Nodin wrote: »

...this may come as a shock, but you failed to note from previous rants that I don't care where the personnell involved were/are from......

Definitely no shock.

R P McMurphy · 31-10-2012 3:51pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I was under impression from previous rants on the subject, that the funds raised in Ireland stay in Ireland?

Irish people that served in the BAF could have served in those countries though

PaddyORuadhan · 31-10-2012 3:52pm

I only view the poppy as a sign of respect to the soldiers who have died. Nothing more nothing less. I'm Irish and I lived in England for a number of years and I wore a poppy as a sign of respect to those who died in ww1 and ww2, but I wouldn't wear one here in Ireland because I'd only get abuse from ignorant people.

The Poppy is and always has been much more than this. It is not only a symbol of Rememberence but also a symbol of the tacit approval of the wars that were fought in a nod that in some way that these wars were 'honourable'. The Poppy is not only about WW1 and WW2 but ALL the wars that the British Army(and other commonwealth countries armies) has fought in.

WW2 was a necessary evil, due to the nature of Fascism in Europe.

However take WW1 for example, by wearing a poppy you are saying somehow that this war was 'honourable'. If the likes of WW1 should be remembered it should be remembered for the absolute disgrace of the Imperialist powers across Europe who were willing to sacrifice a whole generation in order to satisfy their imperial aims. The death of the soldiers of WW1 wasn't something honourable, it was a crime against humanity, it was a crime against those poor young men sent to trenches to die and to kill.

I don't oppose the Poppy because it's British. I oppose the poppy because its a symbol that marks the approval of war and the right of political elites to send young men and women off to die to serve their political aims. Its no coincidence that there has been a big push in recent years about the poppy in Britain, with the rise of 'imperial' conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan. I know many people from the UK that refuse to wear the poppy for exactly these reasons.

ejmaztec · 31-10-2012 4:07pm

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Irish people that served in the BAF could have served in those countries though

The ones serving up to the 60s probably all died in England years ago, and anyone serving since would think more than twice about coming back here for fear of reprisals. There was a case years ago involving a retired Irish ex-RAF guy, who after having threats made to him and his family etc.. decided to move back to the safety of the UK.

Penny Dreadful · 31-10-2012 4:21pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

After all it's for a foreign army, I don't see anyone wearing an emblem for the French, American, Spanish army. Ok some say it's for charity for injured British soldiers, but surely if they join up it's up to the British govt to properly look after them when they are injured and not pestering people expecting charity ?

Many Irish people fought / fight in the British army. All of the people who fought in either of the world wars should be respected and remembered as far as I am concerned. These people sacrficed enormously for all of us. They deserve respect.

Nodin · 31-10-2012 4:30pm

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Many Irish people fought / fight in the British army. All of the people who fought in either of the world wars should be respected and remembered as far as I am concerned. These people sacrficed enormously for all of us. They deserve respect.

...then you might campaign for a symbol that represents them specifically.

Thomas828 · 31-10-2012 4:33pm

Wearing a poppy is a grey area for me. In England I proudly sported my poppy every October and November but I wouldn't do it here in Northern Ireland. Too many people around me have suffered at the hands and weapons of the British Army over the past forty years or more. At the very most I might tune into BFBS, but that would be it.

Penny Dreadful · 31-10-2012 4:46pm

Fuinseog wrote: »

so what. the muppets died for nothing. irish men also died in the american civil war and the french foreign legion.

Its a funny sentence that. You are insulting many many people who unfortunately died to allow you the freedom to do just that. You have also proven yourself quite right too. Your lack of respect is breathtaking.

PaddyORuadhan · 31-10-2012 4:50pm

These people sacrficed enormously for all of us.

For WW1?

I thought it was about:

1) Who should control the Balkans the Romonov's or the Hapsburgs
2) The French desire to rule over Alsace-Loraine
3) Who controlled the oil rich middle east.
4) The scramble for colonies in Africa and which Imperial powers should rule over these 'savages' (views of those leaders fighting the war and not my own)
5) Russia's desire to control the Dardennelles
6) Britain's control of the Suez canal so that it could continue to dominate India
7) Italy's desire for Trieste and the Dalmatian coast.
etc. etc.

R P McMurphy · 31-10-2012 5:07pm

PaddyORuadhan wrote: »

For WW1?

I thought it was about:

1) Who should control the Balkans the Romonov's or the Hapsburgs
2) The French desire to rule over Alsace-Loraine
3) Who controlled the oil rich middle east.
4) The scramble for colonies in Africa and which Imperial powers should rule over these 'savages' (views of those leaders fighting the war and not my own)
5) Russia's desire to control the Dardennelles
6) Britain's control of the Suez canal so that it could continue to dominate India
7) Italy's desire for Trieste and the Dalmatian coast.
etc. etc.

The point could be made that the Irish men that enlisted under enticement from Redmond did so under the auspice of attaining home rule after the conflict. While this may have been possible under Asquith, it was a highly dubious prospect under lloyd george, especially with a person of the low moral fibre of churchill in cabinet. Fighting for the rights of small nations was shown to be the empty gesture that it was when the democratic will of the Irish people was supressed in the years after the war

Nodin · 31-10-2012 5:48pm

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Its a funny sentence that. You are insulting many many people who unfortunately died to allow you the freedom to do just that. You have also proven yourself quite right too. Your lack of respect is breathtaking.

And as has been pointed out, the poppy is about more than WW1 & II. I'm reasonably sure that Greek resistance fighters weren't on the way over here to impose their evil mediterranean ways on us all.

Aodh Rua · 31-10-2012 5:49pm

Lelantos wrote: »

Adolf Hitler ring a bell? No?

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yep. they definately should have left Hitler to continue his good work in the continent, then handed over Britain (and Ireland) when he came knocking.

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Its a funny sentence that. You are insulting many many people who unfortunately died to allow you the freedom to do just that.

gallag wrote: »

When I wear a poppy it is a small way of thanking and keeping the memory alive of the sacrifices EVERY man woman and child gave for our freedom.

The irony of all this worldview needs to be commented upon. The above people, and others here, seem to want Irish people to buy a red poppy from the Royal British Legion because it symbolises the "fight against Hitler".

What all of them omit to mention is that the Royal British Legion, the most British nationalist of organisations, was a huge supporter of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party, going as far as to organise hundreds of British Nazi sympathisers into a force known as the British Legion Volunteer Police Force to help the Nazis police the Sudetenland after Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Royal British Legion collaboration with Nazi Germany, 1938:

Royal British Legion leaders meeting Nazi leaders in Germany, 1938

Royal British Legion supporters training in London to fight for the Nazis, 1938

This attempt by poppy promoters and the Royal British Legion to cover up this historical reality and rewrite the widespread pro-Nazis sympathies in British society prior to WWII should not be allowed to pass by people who are genuinely concerned with historical truth.

Aodh Rua · 31-10-2012 5:50pm

philologos wrote: »

The poppy is used globally (not just in commonwealth) to remember the dead at war.

This is factually incorrect. The red poppy is only a symbol of all those who fought in the forces of the British Empire/British Commonwealth/for Britain. It does not, and is not intended to, commemorate people who died fighting for countries outside of these, including for countries like Russia which were allied with Britain during WWII. Instead, the red poppy is designed to commemorate all those who fought in British/British Empire/British Commonwealth forces in wars that the British were involved in. The Royal British Legion explicitly confirms this on its website here.

In other words, the red British poppy is designed to commemorate everybody who fought for the British state in its various incarnations. This includes the people who ran the British concentration camps in South Africa and Kenya, who operated a shoot-to-kill policy against the Irish, who murdered Irish people on the streets of Cork, Balbriggan and Derry, who gassed the Kurds. And so on. The red British poppy commemorates them all, not just those who "fought Hitler" - indeed, because the red British poppy is explicitly a British/British Commonwealth symbol, it intentionally avoids commemorating the people who gave most "fighting Hitler", namely the Russians. Most people would find this deeply ironic given the claims of "fighting the Nazis" made by poppy supporters on this site. Then again, the Royal British Legion itself was supporting the Nazis in 1938 so when it comes to claims regarding what the Royal British Legion's poppy symbolises anything is possible.

No other people in Europe or the world wear the red British poppy. The French President doesn't (the French wear a blue cornflower, for example), the Russian President doesn't, the US President doesn't, etc. They, and their states, all have their own symbols of commemoration.

Why, other than a misguided sense of British jingoism, are you and other apologists for the British Empire choosing to lie about the very British nationalist politics attached to wearing the red poppy and claim for it a universality of acceptance which it does not have?

Aodh Rua · 31-10-2012 5:50pm

Sheeps wrote: »

My point is that Jews fighting for Hitler is ultimately a paradox where as Irish men fighting for the British Army is not.

Given that Ireland has been occupied for centuries by the British, who have imposed their culture and customs upon the Irish, perhaps you could elaborate on this rather incomprehensible view?

By the way, that wasn't your "point". You point was that, and I quote, "there were no Jews fighting for Nazi Germany in Hitlers Army", and this has been shown to be historically inaccurate so you're now trying to change your "point".

Aodh Rua · 31-10-2012 6:09pm

seanhalpin wrote: »

it was the legitimate army of the state

Given that the state was the British colonial state, it's a truism that the British Army was "the legitimate army of the state". What next; the IRA was "the legitimate army of the Irish Republic" (which is, of course, the name of the state of the First Dáil 1919-1921, and is of course very distinct from the Republic of Ireland, which came into existence in 1949)? What's your point?

The British state in Ireland was never the legitimate state of Ireland or of the Irish people. Perhaps if you genuinely believe this (and I doubt you really do) you can cite an election which gave it a legitimate right to rule over all the Irish people since 1603?

Even today, its support base in Ireland is from people who self describe as "British" and who claim descent from the British state's settler-colonial plantation in the seventeenth century. It is by virtue of the British Army's "foreign army" status that the nationalist community was able to turn/be turned against it quite rapidly after 14 August 1969, despite its seemingly benign arrival as "defenders" of the same people on that date.

Japer · 31-10-2012 6:17pm

Most people in Europe are glad the British stood up and fought the Nazis. Over 100,000 Irish people volunteered and fought with the British services, and if you think they were not on the right side then you only have to go and look at Dachau or Auchwitz or any of the dozens of similar places throughout Europe. Better to remember those brave people, and help - even just in a small way as a gesture - those still alive in need, or their widows etc - than to be known and ridiculed just as the country in the world whose Taoiseach sent condolences to the German Embassy on the death of Hitler.

Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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