Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

30% of political candidates must be female....

Options
15681011

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    cocoa wrote: »
    I believe you are confusing merits with criteria. By your arguments, I could select candidates at random and claim they had the merit of being lucky...
    You're just purposefully being ridiculous instead of coming up with an argument. Luck doesn't have any worth because it doesn't exist.

    Being related to a well known politician does have value and will help you get elected. Since it will help you get elected it will also help you get chosen by the party in the first place.

    The aim of a party when selecting candidates is to get their politicians elected so they choose those who are most likely to do so. If being related to someone well known makes you more likely to get elected then it has merit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    You're just purposefully being ridiculous instead of coming up with an argument. Luck doesn't have any worth because it doesn't exist.

    Being related to a well known politician does have value and will help you get elected. Since it will help you get elected it will also help you get chosen by the party in the first place.

    The aim of a party when selecting candidates is to get their politicians elected so they choose those who are most likely to do so. If being related to someone well known makes you more likely to get elected then it has merit.

    No, I'm not being ridiculous. Merit describes worth, there is no inherent worth in the criteria mentioned. If a party believes that it is the one true party, its policies are rock solid and could not possible fall afoul of stupidity, then it makes sense to choose candidates based on any criteria, if they believe otherwise they ought to choose based on merit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    cocoa wrote: »
    No, I'm not being ridiculous. Merit describes worth, there is no inherent worth in the criteria mentioned. If a party believes that it is the one true party, its policies are rock solid and could not possible fall afoul of stupidity, then it makes sense to choose candidates based on any criteria, if they believe otherwise they ought to choose based on merit.
    I agree merit describes worth and getting elected has value. If a quality makes you more likely to get elected then it has value/merit.

    Like it or not if you're a politician in Kerry with the name Healy-Rae than you have something of value simply by having the right name.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I agree merit describes worth and getting elected has value. If a quality makes you more likely to get elected then it has value/merit.

    I disagree, getting elected does not hold any value whatsoever. To describe a system as a meritocracy when the 'merit' in question is being elected is ridiculous in the extreme.

    Someone getting elected is of value to the party, it is not of any value to anyone else unless the party has an inherent value, i.e., unless its numbers being increased without any increase in merit (or 'other merit' if you like) is an effect of giving greater power to a force of good.
    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Like it or not if you're a politician in Kerry with the name Healy-Rae than you have something of value simply by having the right name.

    I don't like it (so what) and further I think the example you've given poses a striking resemblance to my random selection example.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    cocoa wrote: »
    I disagree, getting elected does not hold any value whatsoever. To describe a system as a meritocracy when the 'merit' in question is being elected is ridiculous in the extreme.

    Someone getting elected is of value to the party, it is not of any value to anyone else unless the party has an inherent value, i.e., unless its numbers being increased without any increase in merit (or 'other merit' if you like) is an effect of giving greater power to a force of good.
    How does a politician plan on doing anything if he can't get elected? Of course getting elected has value because it actually give you power and the party influence.

    If getting elected doesn't have value to a politician why would they even run for election. You aren't thinking about what you're saying.
    I don't like it (so what) and further I think the example you've given poses a striking resemblance to my random selection example.
    No it doesn't. Claiming to have "luck" isn't going to make you more likely to be elected but we clearly do have a history in Ireland of voting in politicians from the same family. So being from the same family as a current T.D improves your odds of becoming a T.D. In terms of the goal of becoming a T.D your surname has a value.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    How does a politician plan on doing anything if he can't get elected? Of course getting elected has value because it actually give you power and the party influence.

    If getting elected doesn't have value to a politician why would they even run for election. You aren't thinking about what you're saying.

    Ok, let me put it another way. When discussing a politician, any politician, you are asked what are his merits? or maybe, what value did he bring? Would you ever say 'well, he got elected' ? It does not have value, it is a pre-requisite.

    Did I say he or she shouldn't get elected? I said it has no inherent value. You do not praise a formula one driver for getting his license, you praise him for the driving he does afterwards.
    SugarHigh wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Claiming to have "luck" isn't going to make you more likely to be elected but we clearly do have a history in Ireland of voting in politicians from the same family. So being from the same family as a current T.D improves your odds of becoming a T.D. In terms of the goal of becoming a T.D your surname has a value.

    Your family name is entirely a matter of luck, it does not imbue you with any merit whatsoever. If parties are choosing candidates solely based on the criteria of who they think is most likely to get elected, that is absolutely fine, but it should not be described as a meritocracy.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Dudess wrote: »
    Disagree with it - it's unfair and will create resentment. Sometimes a meritocracy is the only fair way.

    A meritocracy is all well and good- the issue in my eyes is not so much that there is a distortion in Irish politics because of a lack of women politicians- and far more that the Irish political system is systemically encouraging wastage, patronage, duplication of functions- and a fractious manner of governance where every constituency is in competition with every other constituency to get their boy or girl in the Dail or Seanad to bring home whatever largess they can extricate from the national purse.

    TDs and Senators spend ridiculous lengths of time on purely local issues, and run often multiple constituency offices- to listen to their immediate constituents and whatever their current gripes might be- be it potholes on some bohereen, or services from the local hospital being amalgamated with those elsewhere. These are the people who are supposed to be governing the country- yeah right- they are glorified dons who are used by the local populace to intercede with the council or make representations to prison governors etc....... The mafia are modelled on a system not a million miles away from how Irish politicians operate........

    We need to have representatives that represent the interests of the country. We need to dismantle the system of local patronage. We need to have genuine people in politics interested in the good of the people of Ireland- not the good of the people of Dingle or South Kerry........

    Until such time as we dismantle the current system- and replace it with a system that actually reflects the needs of the country as a whole- there is very little reason why women or anyone else- should imagine they can make a difference in Irish politics. Quite simply they can't. We are mired in a parochial mindset- its whats bedivilled us since independence- and kept us as a 2-3rd world country with pretensions of grandeur. The current shower in there probably welcome the EU/IMF troika- it means they don't have to make the hard decisions and can offload and deflect any public criticisms on these external bodies.

    I just give up- whats the point- why bother running- the mindset of the politicians is just too ingrained in the Irish psyche to be modified. A 30 or 40% quota for women candidates? So what? Whats going to change- absolutely nothing........ I'm sure many of the bright young things who were elected to the Oireachtais had visions of making a difference and working to better Ireland as a country- I'm certain they did. Then they encountered the impenetrable wall of the Irish political system.......

    Arrrgghhhhh...........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    smccarrick wrote: »
    We need to have genuine people in politics interested in the good of the people of Ireland- not the good of the people of Dingle or South Kerry........
    Come on now Shane. That is a slur on the people of south Kerry. Why pick on them. Why not mention the people of Tipperary who elected Michael Lowry or the constituents of the late Tony Gregory? Did they not have similar deals with parties in government who were idealogically opposite their original political beliefs? At least the Healy-Reas are from the FF genepool so it that not just good negotiating skills whereas the other 2 were prepared to swallow any political principles they had to feather nest their constituents?

    Why is it only the Healy-Reas tarred with that brush when every constituency has had or would like to have a politican with the same nous if the country was in the same situation?

    Bloody hell folks lets call a spade a spade for pitys sake


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    5live wrote: »
    Come on now Shane. That is a slur on the people of south Kerry. Why pick on them. Why not mention the people of Tipperary who elected Michael Lowry or the constituents of the late Tony Gregory? Did they not have similar deals with parties in government who were idealogically opposite their original political beliefs? At least the Healy-Reas are from the FF genepool so it that not just good negotiating skills whereas the other 2 were prepared to swallow any political principles they had to feather nest their constituents?

    Why is it only the Healy-Reas tarred with that brush when every constituency has had or would like to have a politican with the same nous if the country was in the same situation?

    Bloody hell folks lets call a spade a spade for pitys sake

    I think that was just used as an example of how parish politics is bad and it affects every constituency, not an implication that it only happens in Kerry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    Maguined wrote: »
    I think that was just used as an example of how parish politics is bad and it affects every constituency, not an implication that it only happens in Kerry.
    No offence meant to Shane

    But the use only of the kerry example is universal, be it on boards or the tv and print media. Despite Lowry being the 'brains' of the operation (not a difficult stretch), it is the Healy-Reas pictured as the gombeens (which ,in fairness, is close enough to being true) while ALL the other examples are conveniently ignored.

    Why not a 30% quota for non Healy-Rea examples of gombeenism and parish pump politics? Or is that just as nonsensical as a womens quota, to steer this gently back on topic


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭Elle Collins


    The best people should be selected, regardless of whats between their legs.

    They should be, but they're not. It should be quite clear by looking around you that we don't live in that utopian world you're talking about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba



    The best people should be selected, regardless of whats between their legs.
    They should be, but they're not. It should be quite clear by looking around you that we don't live in that utopian world you're talking about.
    Just because we don't live in a utopian world doesn't mean this brings us any closer to one. The one thing that this ensures is that there will be a focus on candidate's gender/"what's between their legs" in future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 alarmemo


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/weekinreview/12women.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&hp

    I thought this was a really interesting article on the gender division in politics and what is believed to have motivated the entry into the profession.

    Don't particularly agree with the quota. There are a lot of issues to be address in wider society before a woman would feel able to commit to such a demanding, pressurised job. And what would the constitution make. Doesn't it place women first and foremost in the home?

    What would happen to the home???? :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    You're just purposefully being ridiculous instead of coming up with an argument. Luck doesn't have any worth because it doesn't exist.

    Being related to a well known politician does have value and will help you get elected. Since it will help you get elected it will also help you get chosen by the party in the first place.

    The aim of a party when selecting candidates is to get their politicians elected so they choose those who are most likely to do so. If being related to someone well known makes you more likely to get elected then it has merit.


    1. It was at the last election that me uncle Pat got in
    He was always fond of politics and the same I knew he'd win
    He made such pretty promises to the people one and all
    That's how he got elected as a member of the Dail.

    2. Oh, me uncle is a T.D. me boys, me uncle is a T.D.
    And that's the very reason why ? with me
    Me brother was made a foreman, though he never built a wall
    Yea, but then you'll se my uncle, he's a member of the Dail.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Joanna Tuffy TD (Labour) letter in Irish Examiner
    Quotas divisive and discriminatory

    Wednesday, June 22, 2011

    MINISTER for the Environment Phil Hogan has claimed that women and men that oppose gender quotas are part of "a conservative culture".


    As a woman that opposes gender quotas, I think it is unfair of the minister to pigeon hole those that disagree with him on this issue.

    He should respect the fact that those women and men that oppose gender quotas do want to see more women running for election.

    The reason I oppose gender quotas is because I am opposed to the idea that the way to bring about more women candidates should be a law that discriminates against candidates on the grounds of their gender.

    Such a law will be bad for the cause of women and men. It will be divisive, discriminatory and undemocratic.

    It is true that I do want to conserve something, ie the principle that anyone can contest an election irrespective of their gender and that voters can make up their own minds who to vote for irrespective of gender.

    In contrast, the minister intends to bring in a law whereby a citizen could be prevented from running in a general election solely on the grounds of their gender.

    The minister’s method of using state funding of political parties to achieve his objective in relation to gender quotas is likely to be challenged as unconstitutional because his proposed law will be in conflict with article 16 of the Irish Constitution, which prohibits the passing of a law which places a disability on a citizen running for the Dáil on the grounds of their sex.

    It would be far better for those at the top of political parties, including Minister Hogan, to try to achieve an increase in women running for election by measures that increase the participation by women at the grass roots of political parties.

    Ironically, gender quotas will undermine the grass roots of political parties by imposing top down decisions by party leaderships as to who and what gender general election candidates should be.

    Joanna Tuffy
    TD (Labour)
    Dáil Éireann
    Dublin 2



    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/quotas-divisive-and-discriminatory-158515.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 Sparky_Larks


    iptba wrote: »
    Joanna Tuffy TD (Labour) letter in Irish Examiner

    How will it work for the presidential election. Is there an exemption for that or will parties have to run 3 candidates?

    as interestingly that was the only election where we had no possibility to vote for a person of either gender. and interestingly it is never brought up in this debate


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    I previously mentioned that gender quotas for directors could quite easily be the next step that followed gender quotas in politics and that the EU is interested in this. This suggestion is alluded to in the second paragraph.

    Gender quotas a positive step


    Monday, July 04, 2011

    IT HAS been interesting to follow this week’s discussion on gender quotas in the letters column and to see the charge made that they are undemocratic or discriminatory.

    In fact these quotas have been introduced in almost half of all countries precisely because it is recognised that a democracy cannot be considered complete without the full participation of women, as well as men, in political life. Indeed countries such as France, Spain and the Netherlands have also embraced gender quotas in the corporate boardroom. As long ago as 1997, the Inter-Parliamentary Union’s (IPU) Universal Declaration on Democracy explicitly related democracy to "a genuine partnership between men and women".

    Our government — as well as those who fear that quotas could be discriminatory — could learn from the IPU’s use of gender neutral quotas. This would mean that, instead of requiring that 30% or 40% of the general election candidates selected by political parties should be women, our legislation would require that a minimum of 30% or 40% of either sex be put forward. The current proposal suggests 30% should be women when the quota is first applied, and 40% thereafter.

    Gender-neutral quotas are not only non-discriminatory, they also ensure that the lower required percentage does not become a barrier to the increased participation of either sex. Of course, candidate selection quotas alone are unlikely to bring real change in the levels of representation of women in the first few elections in which they are applied. This is one reason why they should be applied in local as well as general elections. In part, this is because an incumbent has an advantage over a newcomer. Their positive effects should, however, include forcing parties to examine the culture within which they operate and making them take seriously the issues that inhibit women’s full participation.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/gender-quotas-a-positive-step-159859.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    I wanted to highlight the following somewhere. I'm sorry, mods, for bringing up an old thread - if you prefer, I'll start a new thread on it, but I'm guessing you might not like this either.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/first-women-only-oireachtas-meeting-sparks-controversy-275186-Nov2011/

    November 9

    First women-only Oireachtas meeting sparks controversy

    THE FIRST WOMEN-only meeting of TDs and Senators will be held tonight – but has already become the subject of controversy after one female TD said she would refuse to attend.

    [..]


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    This thread has given me much respect for Joanna Tuffy.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Maguined wrote: »
    This thread has given me much respect for Joanna Tuffy.

    Ditto, I wouldn't have voted for her in the past, but she is in my constituency, and is going to be getting a good vote from me in future.........


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Another Joanna Tuffy letter - this one is in the Irish Times:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0315/1224313320603.html
    Sir, – Anthea McTeirnan’s describes politics as the sharing out of a bag of sweets (Opinion, March 9th). The reverse sexism in the language she used in her article, where she referred to women as women and men as boys, has already been questioned by Dr Peter Culhane (Letters, March 14th). I would add that the picture she paints of politics as being about who gets what share of the spoils of office is not a very encouraging one if her objective is to achieve greater participation by women in politics.

    Politics is much more than that and in fact most women and men involved in politics never seek political office, but rather they knock on doors, put up posters, and they take part in debates because they are passionate about politics. Politics is about women and men working in solidarity to make the world a better place.

    Elections are not about seats being given to men or women but rather about human beings voting for other human beings and one person having to persuade another to vote for them based on their ideas, their record, their character.

    Gender quotas are an anathema to this democratic process. The real issue is that not enough women are choosing to get involved in politics and the question is how to encourage them more.

    Most importantly, politics is about ideas, and the choice between ideas about how to make people’s lives better; and it is this much more interesting picture of politics that needs to be promoted by those that wish to encourage more women to get involved. – Yours, etc,

    JOANNA TUFFY TD,
    Dáil Éireann, Dublin 2.
    ---
    BTW, given the thread's title, I thought I'd point out that the quota is just 30% in the lead-in period. The long-term quota (which has no time limit) is 40%.


  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭SEEMagazine


    I admit to only reading a few of the entries here but as someone who works in a *highly* political region, and also being terribly familiar with the Irish system, ANY gender quota is a ludicrous idea.

    As has surely been said already positive discrimination lessens the public standing of those who have their position through ability and ambition. Ability for obvious reasons, and ambition because it is such a soul destroying job that you *need* to be able to shrug off the bad days.

    You introduce ONE quota and you're open to EVERY lobby group wanting their cut of the pie as well. Now that's fine, so long as each group could provide talented and able individuals, which they could since there'd be 20 different quotas needing to be filled. In fact we'd possibly have the most able TDs ever.

    Just no political cohesion... No National focus. It'd be parish pump politics writ large.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Labour TD, Joanna Tuffy spoke in the Dáil today against the proposed legislation.
    I wish to put on record my opposition to the gender quota proposals in this legislation. My first reason for opposing the provisions is that they are very likely to be unconstitutional. They appear to be against many provisions in the Constitution. Second, I believe they are undemocratic and, third, I believe they are discriminatory.

    Full transcript of her speech is here: http://www.labour.ie/joannatuffy/blogarchive/2012/03/22/transcript-of-my-speech-in-the-dail-today-where-i-object-to-gender-quota-legislation/


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Some Senators wanted a 50% quota:
    Before the gender quota laws were passed in the upper house, the Government voted down proposals by the Taoiseach-nominated independent senators that would have increased the quota to 50%.

    It also rejected calls for the quotas to be introduced in time for the local elections of 2014.

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/33-of-candidates-for-dail-to-be-women-187338.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0720/1224320450882.html
    MARY MINIHAN

    The Irish Times - Friday, July 20, 2012

    GENDER QUOTAS are set to become law after the Electoral Amendment (Political Funding) Bill 2011 passed all stages in the Dáil yesterday.

    The legislation, which has yet to be signed by the President, will halve State funding to parties unless 30 per cent of their candidates at the next general election are women. This figure will rise to 40 per cent at subsequent general elections.
    etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭maggy_thatcher


    iptba wrote: »

    Well I guess that means that there is going to be no space for new male entrants into politics for a long time.

    At the last election, I gave a woman my no. 1 vote (not because she's a woman), and she made it through - if she runs again, I won't give her any vote at all, as I refuse to vote for the minority gender in any pro-discrimination party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    new eu legislation to be introduced shortly......will demand that 50% of men will have to give birth......


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    new eu legislation to be introduced shortly......will demand that 50% of men will have to give birth......


    there will be an opt out clause for the uk.....but the uk will not be able to vote on any changes to the length to the gestation period.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I just did a quick tot-up (so I may be out by a wee bit) of the independent candidates that ran for election in 2011. According to this there were 174 male candidates listed as independent and 17 female candidates, similarly listed as independent.

    Certainly there is a stark divide in gender where it comes to candidates running, there is absolutely no denying this. However, I do have to ask, what would gender quotas (that only apply to political parties) do to rectify this inequality where it comes to independent candidates? Nothing is the answer.

    Indeed, the thing that I find odd about the entire gender quotas debate is that everyone seems to agree that they're not actually a solution to the problem of why so few women run, yet I've heard little or nothing suggested as to what might actually be a solution to the problem. I don't think there is any plan to deal with this, just this curious stop gap measure of quotas and nothing else.

    Call me cynical, but I get the feeling that the whole quotas initiative is the brainchild of female party political hacks who are looking to get an unfair advantage in the selection process within their parties, and has absolutely nothing to do with gender equality in politics.

    If it did, the proposed quotas system would not conveniently only benefit those women already in party politics and there might actually be some discussion on addressing why women are so poorly represented overall in the first place.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    new eu legislation to be introduced shortly......will demand that 50% of men will have to give birth......
    Primary custody of children is awarded to approximately 92% of the time to the mother in Ireland. Perhaps we could introduce a 30% gender quota (of fathers being awarded primary custody) in the courts to deal with this issue too?


Advertisement