Access for runners on Coillte lands may be curtailed

b.harte · 04-02-2012 7:17pm

This is a link to Coillte's plans for forest management.
http://www.coillte.ie/coillteforest/plans/district_strategic_plans/district_strategic_plans_2011_2015/
It shows where will be cleared over the next few years.

I know from the areas around where I live that when the clearing starts there are lots of warning signs, occasional safety tape but no real curtailment of access. The felling itself is mostly away from the tracks I run on and the stackings are located off track as well to allow access for the trucks.
The biggest danger is the trucks coming down the forest roads.
If the forest isn't closed during these operations while coillte are in charge why would it be any different if someone else takes over?
Having said that the lack of committed responses by those at the top and the focus on selling the family silver I wouldn't hold my breath.
As an aside, despite all the negative press the two main forest tracts near my place are both being replanted at the minute so at least there will be the next generation of greenery.

Cabaal · 22-02-2012 10:22am

Ok guys, seems we are going to find out if Gilmore was lying or not
http://www.thejournal.ie/government-to-reveal-which-state-assets-are-up-for-sale-362294-Feb2012/

my guess is they won't sell the land, they'll lease the land and basically this means that any private company can come in and mine the crap out of it and cut down trees (as long as they replant them).

menoscemo · 22-02-2012 10:47am

Cabaal wrote: »

Ok guys, seems we are going to find out if Gilmore was lying or not
http://www.thejournal.ie/government-to-reveal-which-state-assets-are-up-for-sale-362294-Feb2012/

my guess is they won't sell the land, they'll lease the land and basically this means that any private company can come in and mine the crap out of it and cut down trees (as long as they replant them).

Well I just heard Coveney on newstalk who said that They would definitely not be selling any coillte land or curtailing Publin acces to forests and trails.

He did say that they were exploring ways of making revenue from the land though, whatever that may mean....

donothoponpop · 22-02-2012 2:59pm

Supposedly just the timber harvesting will be sold, although no firm proposals have been forthcoming. Best of luck raising part of €3B from that lads, I remain skeptical that as the land itself, or (unknown to the public) mineral rights, are where the real value lies, and once the timber sale doesn't raise as much as planned, they'll be told to sell off those assets.

donothoponpop · 09-03-2012 8:41pm

Billy Timmins TD put down a Parliamentary Question (No.208) to my letter. I'm not exactly enthused with the Minister's response, which suggests public access, and obtaining the best economic value will also both be important considerations. I can guess which one of these will be considered most importantly. We were discussing it over dinner today, and I explained to my kids that access to the mountains and forests may be curtailed to pay off debts for bank bondholders, and they both got angry and said that's not fair. They're right, it's not fair, which is why I'll be raising it where and when I can. Details below:

***************

To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the position regarding Coillte lands (details supplied).

- Billy Timmins.

For WRITTEN answer on Wednesday, 7th March, 2012.

Ref No: 13064/12 Proof: 242

It has been reported that over 7% of Irish land, owned and managed by Coillte, is to be sold to private investors, at the behest of the EU/IMF troika. This land is public land which is our bequest to future generations. It is currently freely accessible to Irish citizens, who can enjoy the many benefits our forests and uplands offer- including walking, bike trails, nature watching, mountain climbing, running, etc. At a time when these outdoor pursuits are becoming more popular, and the associated health benefits better understood, to sell off such an asset in order for private debt to be serviced, is nothing short of treason to the Irish State. The health and recreational benefit of these Coillte lands are immeasurable. With sustainable management, these forests and uplands can create thousands of jobs and training opportunities, and remain the property of the Irish people and it is up to the people to declare their respect for Ireland’s trees. As more people discover the benefits of exercise, keeping Coillte lands open and free will reduce our reliance on Health services. The mineral rights under Coillte land belong to the Irish people. Currently, any Freedom of Information request to see the results of Coillte's internal mineral surveys are greeted with stonewalling and refusal. What assets are contained in those reports, and is now secretly for sale?
Ireland is one of the best land masses in the world on which to harvest wind energy, a clean, environmentally friendly, energy resource. The prime sites on which to operate wind farms are on Coillte hilltops. Far better to keep these sites and future income streams in public ownership, than to sell them on to speculators at knock-down prices. At the stroke of a pen, 7% of Ireland will be transferred to private hands- land that generations of patriots fought to keep free for the Irish people. I urge you, as an elected representative of the Irish people, to oppose any measure which would see Coillte lands transferred from Irish sovereignty to fenced-in private corporations.

REPLY

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine: (Simon Coveney)

As recently announced by the Government, consideration will be given to the possible sale of some assets of Coillte, excluding the sale of land. This involves a process of looking at all issues relating to the disposal of Coillte assets including economic, social, strategic and employment. I am conscious that Coillte’s forests provide a range of recreational opportunities for the general public continuing a long tradition of open access to state owned forests. I am aware that this is a very significant issue of concern for the general public, therefore public access to recreational land will be an important consideration in the decision-making process regarding the potential sale of such assets. Obtaining the best economic value for the taxpayer will also be an important consideration.

ultraman1 · 09-03-2012 10:04pm

Theres a bit of a protest on in Donadea forest on the 18th march between 2pm and 3pm ,local and national papers and radio will be there(afaik).Donadea Running club are also holding a dawn til dusk run in protest of the proposed sale of coillte lands,especially donadea forest,so if any one is around your support would be most appreciatted.the main focus of the protest will be at the cafe area and we will be running manly around the 50km route
anto

Slogger Jogger · 02-05-2012 7:37pm

I scratch my head over Coillte's deforestation policy some times. Above me there are Coillte woods. They cleared some acres of trees in recent times but they tend to leave isolated trees standing around the edges. The logic of which escapes me. I'd prefer if they didn't deforest at all, but thats another argument and I suppose it is an industry after all. In this case the isolated trees they leave behind aren't special.. they are the regular pine trees that they cleared all around. These isolated trees are not protected by a surrounding forest any more so it just needs a stormy night to fell them across the trail. This has happened a no. of times on the trail that I use and I encountered a few more downed trees this evening on a brief mountain bike trek. So, the trails are blocked and await someone to get up there with a chainsaw or other heavy duty saw equipment.

Also, and more dangerously, a tree keeled over in a running event I staged in recent days. It fell over mid-race and we were fortunate that no one was nearby at the time. The tree was again an isolated tree from recent clearing all around it. The tree in this case was a native timber but the deforestation around it was of native aswell as pine from what I can tell.

Is there any logic to this policy?

TFBubendorfer · 03-05-2012 9:22am

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

I scratch my head over Coillte's deforestation policy some times. Above me there are Coillte woods. They cleared some acres of trees in recent times but they tend to leave isolated trees standing around the edges. The logic of which escapes me.

I don't know the logic behind it either but they are doing the same here in Kerry, so I guess it is the standard thing to do.

I do remember from a biology lesson 30 years ago (:eek:) that isolated trees still give plenty of protection to wild life that would otherwise be completely lost. Maybe that's got something to do with it.

Mothman · 03-05-2012 9:27am

About leaving the outside trees, these are full of branches and hence full of knots and a lower quality than rest of wood. The trees in the wood loose their lower branches early on and are relatively knot free.

jeffontour · 03-05-2012 11:09am

I wish the forests would be left alone, and that they were all native trees, wild and free. But it's not the case sadly.

But if one thing gets on my goat in this discussion it's the use of the term deforestation. They are harvesting, harvesting for Jaysus sake!

Carry on, rant over, toys well and truely out of the pram.

Kurt Godel · 03-05-2012 11:19am

jeffontour wrote: »

I wish the forests would be left alone, and that they were all native trees, wild and free. But it's not the case sadly.

But if one thing gets on my goat in this discussion it's the use of the term deforestation. They are harvesting, harvesting for Jaysus sake!

Carry on, rant over, toys well and truely out of the pram.

Harvesting would require replanting? I've been looking at bare patches in Wicklow that have been "harvested"over three or four years ago. SJ's been looking at the same patches, maybe thats what he means by deforestation.

Kurt Godel · 03-05-2012 11:20am

Stephen Donnelly TD speaking on the access issue in the Dail recently.

plodder · 03-05-2012 11:45am

Someone was telling me recently that they are legally required to replant within a couple of years. This was a guy who works for the forestry service, so I'd say he knows his stuff, but his general lack of concern about it, suggested the laws aren't too well enforced.

jeffontour · 03-05-2012 11:47am

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Harvesting would require replanting? I've been looking at bare patches in Wicklow that have been "harvested"over three or four years ago. SJ's been looking at the same patches, maybe thats what he means by deforestation.

Fair enough. But equally does anyone on here have the stats of trees felled versus planted, year on year, by Coillte? Do they have to plant fresh forestry where they fell to fulfill the concept of growing a crop or could they fell an area whilst planting elsewhere to replace?

I don't have any answers to these questions before anyone asks, nor am I going to spend time finding them out. For me the key issue here is access to the lands for the purposes of recreation. And I think possibly emotive terms like deforestation may detract attention from that.

Kurt Godel · 03-05-2012 12:28pm

jeffontour wrote: »

Fair enough. But equally does anyone on here have the stats of trees felled versus planted, year on year, by Coillte? Do they have to plant fresh forestry where they fell to fulfill the concept of growing a crop or could they fell an area whilst planting elsewhere to replace?

I don't have any answers to these questions before anyone asks, nor am I going to spend time finding them out. For me the key issue here is access to the lands for the purposes of recreation. And I think possibly emotive terms like deforestation may detract attention from that.

There's a poster involve in forestry (?) who said on this thread they have to replant within two years. One of the issues in what the Gov may or may not sell is "land under forest" as its termed, so deforestation may in fact be a policy (I don't know, I'm basing this on what I see all around me).

Incidentally, a couple of weeks back there was a low-flying aircraft surveying the mountains around me, checking for mineral deposits. Connemara Mining in association with Canadian company Hendrick Resources (HRI). HRI own the mineral rights to Uranium exploration in Ireland. Coillte's internal mineral survey of their land is subject to an exemption from FOI.

There's gold in them thar hills.

Krusty_Clown · 03-05-2012 1:43pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Incidentally, a couple of weeks back there was a low-flying aircraft surveying the mountains around me, checking for mineral deposits. There's gold in them thar hills.

I can just see it now...

Kurt Godel · 03-05-2012 1:52pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I can just see it now...

Check out that ridge! Up the steep way from the valley, along the series of false summits to one o'clock, then a furious descent back to the valley. Sure, there's a little bit of firetrail, but otherwise looks awesome!

I presume they put out little red flags to warn runners when there's munitions practice?

Krusty_Clown · 03-05-2012 2:08pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I presume they put out little red flags to warn runners when there's munitions practice?

It's IMRA++, for those who no longer get an adrenaline kick from the summer-league series of races.

TFBubendorfer · 03-05-2012 2:11pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Check out that ridge! Up the steep way from the valley, along the series of false summits to one o'clock, then a furious descent back to the valley. Sure, there's a little bit of firetrail, but otherwise looks awesome!

You have an excellent eye, sir.

I presume they put out little red flags to warn runners when there's munitions practice?

They do.
Except it's the runners who are used for target practise.

ocnoc · 03-05-2012 3:50pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Incidentally, a couple of weeks back there was a low-flying aircraft surveying the mountains around me, checking for mineral deposits.

Could be Lidar flights....

All of wicklow mapped to 1:5,000 and updated monthly...
Its a win win. Collite gets awesome maps that have everything they need including forest boundarys of different vegatition.
National Parks get all the new small trails that wild life uses...
Orienteers get perfectly detailed contours all over Wicklow with exact detail covering all of the ridges and complex navigtion amongst all of the peat hangs from Three Lakes to Barna Ridge... and then you have the huge sections of forest in West Wicklow that lay unmapped... and all the contour detail in the few quarrys....

I'll stop day dreaming over that thought process now.

Slogger Jogger · 03-05-2012 7:03pm

That aircraft is still doing its low flying exercises. I saw it yesterday, whilst negotiating my way through the downed trees, and saw it again this evening.

As per Kurt's earlier point the pitiful cleared area I see on my runs must have been 'harvested' about 3 years back. No sign of replanting of any sort yet. It still looks like a wasteland. However, to balance that out, in my local woods (which staged the start and end of our trail race at the weekend), there were areas cleared in the last year and they have since replanted native saplings over the last 3 months or so.

ThisRegard · 15-05-2012 1:48pm

Here's the latest I received courtesy of a parliamentary question from Patrick Nulty, Dublin West labour TD.

To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the position regarding plans to privatise Coillte; if he will confirm whether the matter was discusses with the EU-IMF Troika during the recent review; if he will re-visit the plans with a view to take the privatisation of Coillte off the agenda and instead retain this vital State asset in public ownership and utilise it to provide training for the unemployed and the creation of long-term forestry employment, as well as a vital recreational and tourist amenity; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

For ORAL answer on Thursday, 10th May, 2012.

Ref No: 23131/12 Lottery: 51

REPLY

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine: (Simon Coveney)

As announced by the Government in February, consideration will be given to the possible sale of some assets of Coillte excluding the sale of land. A valuation of Coillte assets is currently being undertaken by the NTMA (NewERA unit) in conjunction with my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. A short presentation on the role of Coillte and the issues that might arise from any disposal of assets was given to the EU-IMF Troika during their recent visit. No decision on the possible sale of Coillte assets will be taken until the valuation process is completed.

Coillte Teoranta was established as a private commercial company under the Forestry Act, 1988, with one of the company’s principal objects ‘to carry on the business of forestry and related activities on a commercial basis and in accordance with efficient silvicultural practices’. Coillte currently employs 1,100 staff and provides a significant economic impact in all areas of forestry, timber production and other ancillary businesses.

I am conscious that Coillte, as part of its management of some 442,000 hectares of the national forest estate, plays a significant role in the provision of forest recreational activities, Coillte’s forests provide a range of recreational opportunities for the general public continuing a long tradition of open access to state owned forests. The company currently manages 10 Forest Parks and over 150 recreation sites throughout Ireland and has done significant work developing recreational facilities, with assistance for other state bodies such as Fáilte Ireland. Both in terms of their importance to citizens for ongoing recreation and to visitors during their stay in Ireland, as I have previously advised the House, any sale will take account of public access to recreational land.

ThisRegard · 03-12-2012 4:20pm

I see a joint statement regarding the propsed sale has been released today by a number of interested parties.

Statement on the proposed sale of the Coillte Crop.

ANY SALE OF COILLTE’S FOREST CROP WILL THREATEN RECREATION AND THE FOREST ENVIRONMENT

The organisations below, who altogether represent many thousands of recreational users and environmentalists, wish to express their deep concern at the proposed sale of the Coillte forest crop. The Coillte estate, much of which is on remote and sensitive natural habitats, represents more than 7% of Ireland’s landmass; it includes 11 Forest Parks and more than 150 recreation sites. It is one of Ireland’s most significant recreational and environmental resources – this is borne out by the fact that each year over 18 million individual visits are made to the estate. These visits are made, not only by specific interest groups such as orienteers, hillwalkers, runners and birdwatchers but, most importantly, by local people and family groups.
...This use of the Coillte estate, by the people of Ireland has been made possible by the open access policy that has existed for almost fifty years. Additionally, as a semi-state body, Coillte has put recreational amenities in place and has managed sensitive areas from a recreational and environmental perspective.
The current proposal to sell the forest assets owned by Coillte presents a severe threat to the use of these forests by the people of Ireland and by visitors to the country. Private enterprise owners will have a sole commercial focus in the management of the estate.
In saying that the sale of land will be excluded from any possible deal, the Government is overlooking the fact that it is not just the ownership but also the management of the estate that is critical. The proposed sale will threaten the current open access policy; it will also lead to a slow decline in the current recreational amenities as these will no longer be maintained as they should be. Additionally private enterprise management would pose a great threat to the natural environments in and around Coillte forests.
Coillte’s estate is publicly owned land; it should be managed and maintained for the benefit of current and future generations of Irish people. We call upon the government to immediately abandon any plans to sell off this state asset.
This statement has been issued jointly by the following organisations (each of whom may also issue their own specific statement on the issue):-

Mountaineering Ireland
Birdwatch Ireland
CELT
Just Forests
Irish Mountain Running Association
Irish Orienteering Association
Irish Wildlife Trust
Irish Natural Forestry Foundation
National Association of Regional Game Councils
An Oige
An Taisce
VOICE
Zero Waste Alliance Ireland

Cabaal · 14-03-2013 3:21pm

And once again this issue is back in the news! Big enough for Al Jazeera to report on it too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g76uHk5O8E

Published on 14 Mar 2013

Ireland is considering a controversial new scheme to sell off parts of its forests, as a part of efforts to meet demands from the International Monetary Fund to reduce its debts. Ireland is not the only eurozone member to try to sell off its environment to make some money. Greece has put some of its islands up for sale. But the move would make Ireland the only country in the developed world without a publicly owned forest. Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee reports from Wicklow, Ireland.

ThisRegard · 14-03-2013 3:37pm

Yeah, I've been following it for a while now, seems to be a bit of flag flying going on, but some analysts seem to think the government are backing away from the idea, there was an article in yesterdays Irish Times on it but fecked if I can find it on the new look website, their search functionality is returning stories from as far back as 6 years ago but not from this week.

edit: Thank god for google, here it is, in the Social Affairs - Religion and Beliefs section

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/sale-of-coillte-harvesting-rights-will-cost-state-dear-1.1323765

ThisRegard · 30-04-2013 9:36pm

Good to hear Rabbitte say today that it's unlikely that the harvesting rights to Coilte land will be privatised, but it's still not a definitive No yet.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0430/389190-coillte-privatisation-unlikely-rabbitte/

DogSlySmile · 20-06-2013 8:47am

In the news today - http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0619/457569-coillte-harvesting-rights/

simon255 · 20-06-2013 2:12pm

DogSlySmile wrote: »

In the news today - http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0619/457569-coillte-harvesting-rights/

Positive news, here's hoping theres no changes in policy to access following the merger

robinph · 15-11-2013 5:41pm

I'm not completely up to date with what is going on over your side, but according to this Google map Ireland has been getting greener, in terms of trees, over the last ten years. Greener being represented by blue on the map:

http://earthenginepartners.appspot.com/science-2013-global-forest

Bit of and explanation of what the map represents here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24934790

Krusty_Clown · 15-11-2013 6:25pm

robinph wrote: »

I'm not completely up to date with what is going on over your side, but according to this Google map Ireland has been getting greener, in terms of trees, over the last ten years. Greener being represented by blue on the map:

http://earthenginepartners.appspot.com/science-2013-global-forest

Bit of and explanation of what the map represents here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24934790

Looks like a pretty standard forestation plan (Coilte) whereby particular areas of forest are culled and re-planted, particularly in the Wicklow area. The issue really isn't about how much forest there is, but rather who owns/and has access to the forest and what will happen to the forest in the future. Interesting data though.

Access for runners on Coillte lands may be curtailed

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