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Run a Diesel Car on Kerosene?

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  • 27-02-2012 10:58pm
    #1
    _AVALANCHE_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭


    Is it possible to do this?


«1

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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ..not unless you call home heating oil kerosene, actual kerosene will wreck a diesel engine.


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    #3
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    tumblr_lvgkldIrPu1qb4u7jo1_500.png

    She'll go 300 hectares on a single tank of kerosene


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    #4
    Where To
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Where To


    RoverJames wrote: »
    ..not unless you call home heating oil kerosene, actual kerosene will wreck a diesel engine.
    It's still possible though . . . . .






    :p


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    #5
    deandean
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭deandean


    Sure run it on a tankfull and post how you get on.


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    #6
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Its illegal and the Kerosene will burn out the injectors in the engine, so you will face two massive bills if caught and when the engine goes kaput. Agricultural green diesel is also used as heating oil in older systems, this is also illegal but works just the same as white road diesel. With the price of fuel its use must skyrocketing I imagine and I can't blame people really with the crippling amount of taxation on fuel.


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    #7
    Row
    Registered Users Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭Row


    Kerosene has very poor lubrication properties so it can wear the internals of
    most injector pumps in a very short period....:eek:
    Also Kerosene burns alot hotter than diesel.

    As well as the legal aspect of using kerosene in a road vehicle it is
    not recommended..

    Some say if you mix engine oil with Kerosene on the older diesels then it burns fine..:)

    If anyone uses Kerosene in a newer common rail diesels then they'll be fitting a new high pressure pump and a set of injectors at a cost of a couple a grand.:eek:


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    #8
    Chimaera
    Registered Users Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭Chimaera


    With the price of fuel its use must skyrocketing I imagine and I can't blame people really with the crippling amount of taxation on fuel.

    The week on week price increases are due to the distributors jacking up pre-tax prices. Excise and VAT don't change very much, and only once a year.

    Kerosene has very poor lubricity compared to diesel. Many of the moving parts in a modern diesel fuel injection system depend on the lubricating properties of the fuel for lubrication, so you can expect catastrophic and expensive failures if you put it in there.

    If you have a good quality source of biodiesel (rare in this country) then you can mix it 50/50 with the kerosene and it should be ok. Biodiesel has exceptional lubricity compared to mineral fuels, and is often mandated as a lubricity enhancer. (Note this won't get you out of the legal issue: only way out of that is to fill out a revenue declaration on the use of the fuel and pay whatever duty is owed).

    Both biodiesel and kerosene have a lower calorific value than dino diesel, so expect a power and economy hit on these fuels too.


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    #9
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    RoverJames wrote: »
    ..not unless you call home heating oil kerosene, actual kerosene will wreck a diesel engine.

    But we (unlike the UK) do call Home Heating Oil / 28 Second Oil - "Kerosene". And its better that way as "Home Heating Oil" is a vague and misleading term. Paraffin (ye olde British term) is even more ambiguous as its not scientifically accurate and could refer to a load of different oils and waxes.

    Various forms/derivatives of the same Kerosene used as Home Heating oil are used as both Jet and Rocket Fuel.


    Anyhow, yes you can burn Kero in a Diesel engine. Yes, burns marginally hotter and has worse lubrication, but you can combat this by adding some Veg oil (or clean Motor oil or an actual proper diesel Oil lubricant). Most people find Diesels run smoother and gain power on Kerosene as its a less viscous liquid it actually sprays better (the opposite of BioDiesel, which tends to be more viscous leading to atomisation problems in the higher pressure common rails). The fine (penalty) varies all over the place for burning a marked oil in a road car, from EUR300 to 3000.

    And yes, I did test this, Im not just quoting hearsay. Audibly smoother, more power, less (no) smoke, a much better fuel, just ruined by Government taxation and rules.


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    #10
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?


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    #11
    Marlow
    Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Also, a percentage of kero is used in regular road diesel during winter time, so that your diesel stays usable at low temperatures.

    /M


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    #12
    Marlow
    Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?

    Actually, two stroke oil is even supposed to help in road diesel. In small amount though, mind ya.

    /M


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    #13
    Weylin
    Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Weylin


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?
    adding some of this may help (or maybe not)http://www.dipetane.ie/


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    :..........But we (unlike the UK) do call Home Heating Oil / 28 Second Oil - "Kerosene". And its better that way as "Home Heating Oil" is a vague and misleading term. Paraffin (ye olde British term) is even more ambiguous as its not scientifically accurate and could refer to a load of different oils and waxes:........

    INdeed, green diesel heating oil and kerosene heating oil as different products, the later I refer to as kerosene and the former as home heating oil, one used straight won't wreak a diesed, the other will :)


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    #15
    Wheelnut
    Registered Users Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Wheelnut


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    ... but you can combat this by adding some Veg oil (or clean Motor oil or an actual proper diesel Oil lubricant)....
    Aw shucks, I'm still looking for a way to get a few more miles out of my old engine oil after a change!
    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?
    I always thought that two-stroke was similar to four stroke but was treated so that it would not settle out of the mix when the engine was stopped.


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    #16
    _AVALANCHE_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭_AVALANCHE_


    Chimaera wrote: »
    Kerosene has very poor lubricity compared to diesel. Many of the moving parts in a modern diesel fuel injection system depend on the lubricating properties of the fuel for lubrication, so you can expect catastrophic and expensive failures if you put it in there.

    If you have a good quality source of biodiesel (rare in this country) then you can mix it 50/50 with the kerosene and it should be ok. Biodiesel has exceptional lubricity compared to mineral fuels, and is often mandated as a lubricity enhancer.

    Both biodiesel and kerosene have a lower calorific value than dino diesel, so expect a power and economy hit on these fuels too.
    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Anyhow, yes you can burn Kero in a Diesel engine. Yes, burns marginally hotter and has worse lubrication, but you can combat this by adding some Veg oil (or clean Motor oil or an actual proper diesel Oil lubricant).

    Most people find Diesels run smoother and gain power on Kerosene as its a less viscous liquid it actually sprays better (the opposite of BioDiesel, which tends to be more viscous leading to atomisation problems in the higher pressure common rails). The fine (penalty) varies all over the place for burning a marked oil in a road car, from EUR300 to 3000.

    And yes, I did test this, Im not just quoting hearsay. Audibly smoother, more power, less (no) smoke, a much better fuel, just ruined by Government taxation and rules.
    How much oil/lub would you need to add to say 20 litres of Kero?


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    #17
    darragh o meara
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭darragh o meara


    On a modern diesel it's suicide to put it into as you have complex depoloution systems that will go haywire at the first sniff of it plus burning hotter will cause everything else to get hotter and catalytic convertors and dpf filter really don't like that and will most likely s hit themselves and burn up and that's before everything else involved in the complex injection system decides there is not enough lubrication in the oil and cause all manor of trouble.

    However....... If its an old yoke and I'm leaning particularly towards the old diesel merc and vw engines ( ie mid 80s to early 90s ) as I've seen these first hand, these will run on just about anything you throw into them, veg oil, chip oil, kerosene mixed with a bit of veg oil and a few other things. I know of a person who has an old merc diesel engine running a generator for his workshop and he uses it every day. Apart from a preheated for the fuel and a regular filter change he's been successful at running it on a few different fuels. The same fella got his hands on 1500 litres of petrol and diesel mixed together and this ran the engine no bother for a long long time. Nowadays even waste engine oil gets thrown in every now and again and it works fine.


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    #18
    HAMMERCURRENT
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭HAMMERCURRENT


    I have seen several car filling with kero north of the border, the colour of this fuel (in the North) looks the same as road diesel to me, clear with a slight yellow tint, so I wonder if you were dipped how would the customs know the difference? without taking a sample for analisys. I haven't tried it in a car but it keeps my house nice and warm!


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    #19
    Twin-go
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Twin-go


    Chimaera wrote: »
    The week on week price increases are due to the distributors jacking up pre-tax prices. Excise and VAT don't change very much, and only once a year.

    Excise and VAT are a % of the pre-tax price. So when that is "jacked -up" the amount of excise and VAT also increases.

    The Irish motorist must be one of the highest taxed in the Eurozone once you take into accout new car VAT, excise and VRT, annual motor tax, VAT and excise on fuel, NCT, VAT on tolls, VAT on parts, servicing, labour, environmental charges for disposal of used oil and tyres.


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    #20
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Do turbine engine cars run on kerosene?


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    #21
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    _AVALANCHE_ wrote: »
    How much oil/lub would you need to add to say 20 litres of Kero?

    Not that there is a hard and fast rule, but 1litre mixed in well would be my estimate. Remember that even if the thinner (less viscous) fluid was in the minority, the effect on the volume of liquid is exaggerated, so in this case the thinner fluid is the majority, so dont worry too much bout putting in "too much".

    I did testing last year on the % Veg Oil and its effect on flow when blended with Kerosene:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056142768&page=5

    Table reposted: 
    [B][SIZE="4"]Fluid         Time to Flow 1litre[/SIZE][/B]

[B][U]Straight Fuels[/U][/B]
100% Kerosene     16sec
100% Veg Oil      37sec
100% Diesel - Not tested, estimated 20sec

[B][U]Blends[/U][/B]
30% VOil           22sec
50% VOil           25sec
70% VOil           27sec
90% VOil           34sec
    I didnt have any diesel to test, just Kerosene as the baseline and kerosene is less viscous than diesel (thinner), so it will outflow diesel. Still a lot more viscous than petrol though.
    There was a noticeable difference in noise from the pump when pumping the high oil concentrations vs the straight kero.


    So... 30% Veg Oil 70% Kero is likely close enough to Diesel in terms of viscosity, considering the Diesel engine needs to operate at both -12 and +40c temps, 100% Diesel at -5c is likely thicker than 30% Veg Oil mixed with Kero at +5c.


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    #22
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    I saw a generator that had been run on a rough diesel/kerosene mix fail suddenly. It screeched, began to throw out lots of smoke and threw a conrod through the crankcase, in a few seconds.And then went on fire. Very noisy and an unforgettable spectacle to watch.Be careful with running on kero.

    regards
    Stovepipe


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    #23
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Do turbine engine cars run on kerosene?
    Its a jet turbine, so it runs on JET A/B or A1 which are Kerosene type fuels.

    Generally Jets / Turbines = Kerosene and Piston engined aircraft = AvGas which is a petrol type fuel.
    Stovepipe wrote: »
    I saw a generator that had been run on a rough diesel/kerosene mix fail suddenly. It screeched, began to throw out lots of smoke and threw a conrod through the crankcase, in a few seconds.And then went on fire. Very noisy and an unforgettable spectacle to watch.Be careful with running on kero.

    regards
    Stovepipe
    ..and what has that to do with Kerosene? If it had been run on Diesel from Topaz, would you have blamed the diesel?


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    #24
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    What it has to do with the kerosene is that the operator of the generator was trying to skimp on having to use diesel so he tipped in kerosene instead, despite the fact that kerosene is known not to have the same lubricating qualities as regular diesel. This, despite the fact that the guy in question is an aircraft engineer, who certainly knew better. As posters here have outlined,it destroys injection pumps and as I witnessed, also destroys rugged industrial engines. From what I know, people who use kero in diesel engines usually mix it with diesel or two-stroke oil or biodiesel or even engine lubricating oil, in similar ratios to two-stroke mix but they never run it on pure kerosene.

    regards
    Stovepipe


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    #25
    _AVALANCHE_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭_AVALANCHE_


    Does everyone agree that it can't be used on newer type engines?

    How old would a car have to be, to be safe with a mix?


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    #26
    kilianmanning
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭kilianmanning


    _AVALANCHE_ wrote: »
    Does everyone agree that it can't be used on newer type engines?

    How old would a car have to be, to be safe with a mix?
    anything non common rail, any unrefined diesel engine


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    #27
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    What it has to do with the kerosene is that the operator of the generator was trying to skimp on having to use diesel so he tipped in kerosene instead, despite the fact that kerosene is known not to have the same lubricating qualities as regular diesel. This, despite the fact that the guy in question is an aircraft engineer, who certainly knew better. As posters here have outlined,it destroys injection pumps and as I witnessed, also destroys rugged industrial engines. From what I know, people who use kero in diesel engines usually mix it with diesel or two-stroke oil or biodiesel or even engine lubricating oil, in similar ratios to two-stroke mix but they never run it on pure kerosene.

    regards
    Stovepipe
    Thats an example of someone being stupid, 100% kero with no lubricant.. to what end? Pointless but not really what anyone is suggesting and surely pretty painfully obvious. I'm the one suggesting running with diesel, biodiesel, two stroke oil or even engine lubricating oil btw..?
    PS, lol @ signoff, your passport must raise eyebrows. ;)
    _AVALANCHE_ wrote: »
    Does everyone agree that it can't be used on newer type engines? How old would a car have to be, to be safe with a mix?
    Well I wasnt advocating pure kerosene in any engine, but a mix with diesel and an additional lubricant is (in my non-professional opinion) ok even in modern engines. Its not like trying to run BioDiesel (which Im a fan of, but it has its issues) which is thicker, contains acids and water if not made correctly and has gelling problems when winter cold.

    Kerosene on the otherhand will pump and spray though the latest injectors even better than diesel, but as noted, will not lubricate as much. Note however its not like running petrol which effectively has no lubrication, its just not as good as diesel.

    No one is going to "tell" you whats save and isnt however, its just opinion.


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    #28
    shawnee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭shawnee


    Yeah , I would concur that tinkering around with the fuel on the modern diesels is suicide. I know of several who have run the old 80s mercs and vws which will run fine on veg oil or other mixtures and the regular change of filters is all that's required. Now on the other hand recently heard of a guy running one of the more modern Toyota Amazons on the same mixture and all went well for a couple of months and suddenly all hell broke lose , oil pressure dropped , injectors shagged and basically engine packed in:o
    Makes sense really , when you see the different performance on the older diesels that chugged along and the modern turbo yokes that will outrun some petrol cars . :D


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    #29
    Where To
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Where To


    HAMMERCURRENT wrote: »
    I have seen several car filling with kero north of the border, the colour of this fuel (in the North) looks the same as road diesel to me, clear with a slight yellow tint, so I wonder if you were dipped how would the customs know the difference? without taking a sample for analisys. I haven't tried it in a car but it keeps my house nice and warm!
    They wouldn't need to dip, just unscrew the cap ;)


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    #30
    lomb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭lomb


    The only thing kerosene is good for is jet turbine engines and certain home heating boilers. Why even have this discussion?
    If you want to avoid excise and partial VAT then get 1000 liters of marked gas oil delivered to your house. Id say the chances of being dipped are slim but saying that I personally wouldn't do it.


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    #31
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    lomb wrote: »
    The only thing kerosene is good for is jet turbine engines and certain home heating boilers. Why even have this discussion?
    If you want to avoid excise and partial VAT then get 1000 liters of marked gas oil delivered to your house. Id say the chances of being dipped are slim but saying that I personally wouldn't do it.
    Lies!
    Its good for reducing viscosity in BioDiesel and PPO, infact its excellent. Also good for $hits and giggles.
    I know what you are saying though, since the penalty for either marked fuel is the same, if thats the only agenda, might as well use the one that actually is diesel.


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