Aviva - 900 jobs to go. Time for change at IDA

steve9859 · 19-10-2011 10:19pm

You cant put this all on Aviva. Their PR has been crap, and they deserve all the grief they get on the back of that. But there is a reason they are leaving.

It is not Aviva's fault that the country is uncompetitive. We should look closer to home, and try to bloody fix it rather than blame a company for our ills and ignore our own issues. We need to reprice our economy - cut PS wages, welfare etc. If we don't get prices down we haven't a hope, and constant job losses will eventually break the country.

You cant blame them for going if indeed they can have run the numbers and find that they can run an equivalent operation north of London at a 20% cheaper cost. Who here would do any different if you were running a company? And I am sure that the local people wherever they locate will be thrilled - it is a British company after all

Monty Burnz · 19-10-2011 10:24pm

steve9859 wrote: »

You cant blame them for going if indeed they can have run the numbers and find that they can run an equivalent operation north of London at a 20% cheaper cost.

If it's still 20% cheaper to run the business from a proper world city like London, that really should set off a lot of alarm bells with regard to the cost of doing business here and is yet another indication of just how retarded the 'high property prices = healthy' mentality really was.

Actually, I say 'was' but that attitude is still around - cheaper houses are always treated as bad news by the news morons. Oddly, they never come on and announce the 'good news' that the price has gone up for food or petrol or other necessities. :rolleyes:

steve9859 · 19-10-2011 10:31pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If it's still 20% cheaper to run the business from a proper world city like London, that really should set off a lot of alarm bells with regard to the cost of doing business here and is yet another indication of just how retarded the 'high property prices = healthy' mentality really was.

Actually, I say 'was' but that attitude is still around - cheaper houses are always treated as bad news by the news morons. Oddly, they never come on and announce the 'good news' that the price has gone up for food or petrol or other necessities. :rolleyes:

Interview on the radio this evening with an employee rep or union rep (I cant remember) when questioned whether it was true about the 20% number said something like "yes, the numbers don't lie, but you're not comparing like with like - I mean a can of red bull in Dublin might be 20% more expensive than a can of red bull in London".

I don't think he fully understood what he was saying, as he didn't seem to grasp that that is exactly the problem!!!

WalterMitty · 19-10-2011 10:35pm

steve9859 wrote: »

Interview on the radio this evening with an employee rep or union rep (I cant remember) when questioned whether it was true about the 20% number said something like "yes, the numbers don't lie, but you're not comparing like with like - I mean a can of red bull in Dublin might be 20% more expensive than a can of red bull in London".

I don't think he fully understood what he was saying, as he didn't seem to grasp that that is exactly the problem!!!

actualy recent cost of living surveys show Dublin a fair bit cheaper than london for cost of living! So now the excuse of cost of living excuse is also being eroded. Inflation in uk was 5% last month as well so that trend should further increase cost of living in uk in years to come with wages not growing much if any over there.

steve9859 · 19-10-2011 10:38pm

WalterMitty wrote: »

actualy recent cost of living surveys show Dublin a fair bit cheaper than london for cost of living! So now the excuse of cost of living excuse is also being eroded. Inflation in uk was 5% last month as well so that trend should further increase cost of living in uk in years to come with wages not growing much if any over there.

That 5% inflation was all energy. Strip that out and there was zero to very slight deflation

WalterMitty · 19-10-2011 10:42pm

steve9859 wrote: »

That 5% inflation was all energy. Strip that out and there was zero to very slight deflation

Yeah well with their weakening sterling and diminishing energy reserves they are gonna be importing a lot of expensive energy and oil derived products that feeds into cost of everything in longer term.

steve9859 · 19-10-2011 10:47pm

WalterMitty wrote: »

Yeah well with their weakening sterling and diminishing energy reserves they are gonna be importing a lot of expensive energy and oil derived products that feeds into cost of everything in longer term.

If a global recession kicks in like people now think it will, energy costs aren't going anywhere but down. But that is off the topic

More to the point at hand: So say Dublin has a cheaper cost of living, how come the cost base is so out of whack?

NewApproach · 19-10-2011 10:50pm

Why are people blaming Aviva so much? They are a company and have to satisfy shareholder's demands of certain levels of profit. Aviva are not there to give jobs to people when it is unsustainable to do so. Yes it's unfortunate for the people involved but that's part and parcel of employment I'm afraid.

liammur · 19-10-2011 10:53pm

steve9859 wrote: »

You cant put this all on Aviva. Their PR has been crap, and they deserve all the grief they get on the back of that. But there is a reason they are leaving.

It is not Aviva's fault that the country is uncompetitive. We should look closer to home, and try to bloody fix it rather than blame a company for our ills and ignore our own issues. We need to reprice our economy - cut PS wages, welfare etc. If we don't get prices down we haven't a hope, and constant job losses will eventually break the country.

You cant blame them for going if indeed they can have run the numbers and find that they can run an equivalent operation north of London at a 20% cheaper cost. Who here would do any different if you were running a company? And I am sure that the local people wherever they locate will be thrilled - it is a British company after all

Spot on. If the IDA are stupid enuf to give these companies subsidies of €14K per worker, they'll take it, and do a runner when the time is up.

WalterMitty · 19-10-2011 10:56pm

steve9859 wrote: »

If a global recession kicks in like people now think it will, energy costs aren't going anywhere but down. But that is off the topic

More to the point at hand: So say Dublin has a cheaper cost of living, how come the cost base is so out of whack?

commercial rents and rates arent included in cost of living. Are Aviva staff not willing to take a 20% pay cut? I heard they are planning to strike which indicates they are fairly militant and reluctant to give more cuts.
It is quite hard for management to cut pay drastically in these companies as they are cutting their own pay and cutting the pay of those they have to face every day and with whom they are friends. Can sometimes be easier to shut untis down and start again and that seems to be what they are doing in outsourcing WITHIN Ireland. I know a guy in Aviva who is only a post room supervisor on around 50k which seems a lot for low skill work.

steve9859 · 19-10-2011 10:56pm

NewApproach wrote: »

Why are people blaming Aviva so much? They are a company and have to satisfy shareholder's demands of certain levels of profit. Aviva are not there to give jobs to people when it is unsustainable to do so. Yes it's unfortunate for the people involved but that's part and parcel of employment I'm afraid.

If a company wants to move it will move, and if the cost and revenue dynamics change, then it should move. Lets not forget that it moved from somewhere else to come to Ireland, and we were quite happy to take advantage! I think it is more the PR that is the issue, and the way the rumours weren't dealt with a few months ago before the announcement was made. It does sound like the process has been pretty shambolic

I'm not sure I see the point of balloting for strike action. Is that meant to persuade Aviva to stay or something?!?

thebman · 19-10-2011 11:11pm

NewApproach wrote: »

Why are people blaming Aviva so much? They are a company and have to satisfy shareholder's demands of certain levels of profit. Aviva are not there to give jobs to people when it is unsustainable to do so. Yes it's unfortunate for the people involved but that's part and parcel of employment I'm afraid.

Well I'm not blaming them for doing it but I'm not going to buy from a company letting 900 Irish workers go so they can outsource it.

I don't want to support that kind of business practice. If all multi-nationals take that approach, how will Irish people buy their products?

We can't all live on the dole. We have problems and we need to sort them but things like this just make our problems even worse.

It was disgusting to see Bruton on TV3 news just now saying this is a legacy issue or in other words, blame FF. Well who cares if it is a legacy problem, what needs to be done and when are we going to go do it?

WTF023 · 19-10-2011 11:14pm

I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that Aviva moved to Ireland from some other country. Aviva was originally Hibernian which is one of the oldest insurers in Ireland. It's here over a hundred years. The jobs were always in Ireland. They didn't magically appear from overseas with the help of the IDA....
As for the cost base the reality behind the PR spin is that some decisions made in the recent past have turned out badly. For example the move to their new HQ in Dublin and the sponsoring of the stadium added about 13-16million a year to the cost base. As everyone is aware whether your a big or small company once you've signed these contracts your stuck. So whilst their staff cost may have been higher they are probably the only item on the cost base that can be corrected....

steve9859 · 19-10-2011 11:18pm

It's a British company now though, and I'm sure the Brits are happy to see jobs coming home and effectively the outsourcing to Ireland being reversed - it is commented on regularly enough in the UK press.

Question is more "how do we ensure Ireland regains it's place as an outsourcing country". Because something has clearly gone wrong

WTF023 · 19-10-2011 11:28pm

Whilst I agree that the costs in Ireland need to come down. What I am saying though is that in this case it's as much if not more to do it mistakes made by management as anything to do with costs in the general economy as a whole.
Do you see or hear of many or any other insurers inflicting similar cuts on their staff costs. EG Quinn a bankrupted company....

thebman · 19-10-2011 11:48pm

WTF023 wrote: »

I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that Aviva moved to Ireland from some other country. Aviva was originally Hibernian which is one of the oldest insurers in Ireland. It's here over a hundred years. The jobs were always in Ireland. They didn't magically appear from overseas with the help of the IDA....
As for the cost base the reality behind the PR spin is that some decisions made in the recent past have turned out badly. For example the move to their new HQ in Dublin and the sponsoring of the stadium added about 13-16million a year to the cost base. As everyone is aware whether your a big or small company once you've signed these contracts your stuck. So whilst their staff cost may have been higher they are probably the only item on the cost base that can be corrected....

Well, one issue with this is if the British management had such an issue with this then they could have told the Irish management to cope themselves on.

They didn't seem to have a problem with it at the time. In fact, I think they are happier having a lower staff cost base while having their name on a stadium for constant publicity and being able to blame it on poor Irish management. For all we know, they told them to do it.

I don't think the Irish management would have been able to make the decision to sponsor the stadium without approval from the top management of the overall group given the costs involved.

liammur · 20-10-2011 1:13pm

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has condemned insurance giant Aviva’s handling of its jobs cuts announcement as “disgraceful”.
The company announced yesterday that 950 jobs – 770 in Aviva Ireland and a further 180 in Aviva Europe – could be lost among its 2,000-strong Irish workforce.

Mr Gilmore said the company’s treatment of its workers was “not acceptable”.

Idbatterim · 20-10-2011 2:27pm

Aviva claimed yesterday that pay costs here were at least 20pc higher than in the UK, while overall costs were up to 50pc higher. It is understood that average pay at the Aviva Ireland operation is around €35,000 a year.

UNITE maintained that bad management rather than wage levels were to blame for the massive jobs cull.

The unions are the greediest bunch of the lot! and what has this resulted in for their members? ireland being uncompetitive and losing jobs to other wealthier, sovereign but more competitive countries. I wonder how many union heads have lost their jobs? Unions dishing out business advice, makes me laugh! They should stick to what they were good at, trying to extort the highest amount of money for as little work as they can possibly get away with!

ei.sdraob · 20-10-2011 2:33pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

The unions are the greediest bunch of the lot! and what has this resulted in for their members? ireland being uncompetitive and losing jobs to other wealthier, sovereign but more competitive countries. I wonder how many union heads have lost their jobs? Unions dishing out business advice, makes me laugh! They should stick to what they were good at, trying to extort the highest amount of money for as little work as they can possibly get away with!

Caviar + Champagne Socialism comes easy to you when you are on 120K+ a year
take the likes of tradeunionistas like D. Begg get,
or likes of our presidential wannabies like D. Michael

liammur · 20-10-2011 2:33pm

As soon as the ridiculous €14K subsidy is up they are gone. Instead of blaming them, we need to address the reasons why they are going.

Head The Wall · 21-10-2011 12:41pm

liammur wrote: »

As soon as the ridiculous €14K subsidy is up they are gone. Instead of blaming them, we need to address the reasons why they are going.

Yawn, Aviva bought Hibernian insurance who have been operating in Ireland since 1908, Hibernian bought Friends First insurance. I'll bet the IDA funded few to none of these jobs as most of them were indigenous

Maybe you have a link which states they paid 14k for each job, please do post it.

Is it just the IDA you have a problem with or you against all grants and incentives.

liammur · 21-10-2011 12:51pm

Head The Wall wrote: »

Yawn, Aviva bought Hibernian insurance who have been operating in Ireland since 1908, Hibernian bought Friends First insurance. I'll bet the IDA funded few to none of these jobs as most of them were indigenous

Maybe you have a link which states they paid 14k for each job, please do post it.

Is it just the IDA you have a problem with or you against all grants and incentives.

I've a problem with the IDA when they are throwing taxpayer's money at the likes of Talk Talk. Simple as that. Bringing in companies like Oracle, Microsoft, Google, this is what I like to see.
Aviva took over Hibernian, this much is true. Did Hibernian employ 2,000 people? I think not.

Head The Wall · 21-10-2011 1:13pm

What about the govt throwing grant money and free fees at students to study BS courses that will add very little too the country

liammur · 21-10-2011 1:25pm

Head The Wall wrote: »

What about the govt throwing grant money and free fees at students to study BS courses that will add very little too the country

2 wrongs don't make a right.
It's these inefficiencies that need axing, like paying fees to doctors for issuing sick certificates. If we weren't broke we could nearly laugh.

galway2007 · 21-10-2011 6:37pm

the fact is that there are paid 20% more that employees in london
would this have happend if the union offered to look at pay levels ??
have they take any cut in pay since 2008???

WTF023 · 21-10-2011 6:58pm

liammur wrote: »

I've a problem with the IDA when they are throwing taxpayer's money at the likes of Talk Talk. Simple as that. Bringing in companies like Oracle, Microsoft, Google, this is what I like to see.
Aviva took over Hibernian, this much is true. Did Hibernian employ 2,000 people? I think not.

Well I think they did actually. The present Aviva is the merger of a number of different companies over the last ten years. Hibernian,Norwich Union,CGU, Friends First and of course AIB's life division Ark life's merger with Aviva Life. This present job loss announcement is on top of the approximately 500 jobs cut in 2008 and about two other rounds of redundancies over the last ten years after the mergers.

You do appear to be throwing out random comments without any real knowledge of the situation or background.

WTF023 · 21-10-2011 7:01pm

galway2007 wrote: »

the fact is that there are paid 20% more that employees in london
would this have happend if the union offered to look at pay levels ??
have they take any cut in pay since 2008???

Additional pension contribution,pay freeze since 2008,longer working week and 500 job losses all agreed in 2008!

steve9859 · 21-10-2011 7:08pm

WTF023 wrote: »

galway2007 wrote: »

the fact is that there are paid 20% more that employees in london
would this have happend if the union offered to look at pay levels ??
have they take any cut in pay since 2008???

Additional pension contribution,pay freeze since 2008,longer working week and 500 job losses all agreed in 2008!

But that is probably just the same as what every country has done. It's snipping around the edges. I suspect that if Aviva had proposed something material, like a 20% or more straight salary cut, there would have been strike action

WTF023 · 21-10-2011 7:20pm

steve9859 wrote: »

But that is probably just the same as what every country has done. It's snipping around the edges. I suspect that if Aviva had proposed something material, like a 20% or more straight salary cut, there would have been strike action

Interesting that you'd say 500 people losing their jobs is only snipping at the issue. I just wonder at what point is it not snipping?. I'm sure the 500 people out of work would have been happy to take a 20% pay cut.

liammur · 21-10-2011 7:22pm

WTF023 wrote: »

Well I think they did actually. The present Aviva is the merger of a number of different companies over the last ten years. Hibernian,Norwich Union,CGU, Friends First and of course AIB's life division Ark life's merger with Aviva Life. This present job loss announcement is on top of the approximately 500 jobs cut in 2008 and about two other rounds of redundancies over the last ten years after the mergers.

You do appear to be throwing out random comments without any real knowledge of the situation or background.

Randon comments? Point them out

You have to expect redundancies with mergers, goes with the territory.

Aviva - 900 jobs to go. Time for change at IDA

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