Aviva - 900 jobs to go. Time for change at IDA

liammur

This is a big blow, particularly to the workers involved, and is another example of failed IDA policy.

Between bringing in the wrong type of company, and not bringing in companies into certain regions, I believe we need a new CEO of the IDA.

invinciblePRSTV

liammur wrote: »

This is a big blow, particularly to the workers involved, and is another example of failed IDA policy.

Between bringing in the wrong type of company, and not bringing in companies into certain regions, I believe we need a new CEO of the IDA.

Its been pointed out to you before Liammur that the IDA cannot force companies to locate in a specific region no matter how much pressure is put on them by gombeen politicians. Lose that chip on the shoulder.

liammur

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Its been pointed out to you before Liammur that the IDA cannot force companies to locate in a specific region no matter how much pressure is put on them by gombeen politicians. Lose that chip on the shoulder.

Move over Barry O Leary, your time is up son. Bring someone in who CAN do the job.

invinciblePRSTV

liammur wrote: »

Move over Barry O Leary, your time is up son. Bring someone in who CAN do the job.

Different chied executives, same results. Most FDI will be concentrated in the same area's - the large urban ones - which it always has done.

RichardAnd

There is an interesting bit of psychology at work here. A company, Aviva in this case, are about to put nearly 1000 people out of work and the first reaction seems to be a need to blame another Irish person rather than the people that really made the decision; Aviva themselves.

liammur

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Different chied executives, same results. Most FDI will be concentrated in the same area's - the large urban ones - which it always has done.

Possibly, but we talk about evaluating our teachers etc, these guys also need evaluating imo. A whole overview of their policy needs to be conducted in the light of the Talk Talk fiasco. Now this blow. Unfair on the workers who make commitments on jobs that are never sustainable.

Andrew33

RichardAnd wrote: »

There is an interesting bit of psychology at work here. A company, Aviva in this case, are about to put nearly 1000 people out of work and the first reaction seems to be a need to blame another Irish person rather than the people that really made the decision; Aviva themselves.

Exactly, these companies are prepared to make massive profits here but dump hundreds of people on the dole when times get tough just to put 2c on their shareprice (it's all about the shareholder don't you know?). It really is a load of b*ll*x. I for one will not be renewing my health insurance with Aviva (don't bother telling me about protecting the remaining jobs in Aviva) and I certainly won't be going with that shower of crooks Quinn. Looks like I'm stuck with VHI so.

Media should also ignore their "contractual obligations" and stop referring to Landsdowne Rd as "The Aviva":mad:

thebman

Alliance are advertising presumably to try to steal customers from this negative press.

I wonder how many they employ here and are they hiring some of these staff?

WalterMitty

I am not convinced IDA is succesfull nowadays anyway. Are they ever assesed by independent assesors? I mean big corporations are well capable of analysing a country themselves and i doubt what a few civil servants say to them sways them much.
They look at bottom line and other such factors. I find it hard that the likes of FAS can be so useless and wastefull and another state agency is lauded to high heaven, myth i think unless theres clear evidence to contrary? Has anyone actually asked companies wo have made FDI here what clinched it for them?

mikemac

thebman, Aliianz Ireland are hiring one hundred new staff

liammur

WalterMitty wrote: »

I am not convinced IDA is succesfull nowadays anyway. Are they ever assesed by independent assesors? I mean big corporations are well capable of analysing a country themselves and i doubt what a few civil servants say to them sways them much.
They look at bottom line and other such factors. I find it hard that the likes of FAS can be so useless and wastefull and another state agency is lauded to high heaven, myth i think unless theres clear evidence to contrary? Has anyone actually asked companies wo have made FDI here what clinched it for them?

I agree fully.

The IDA put in around 1,000 jobs into Carrick on Shannon. Nearly the same size as the town. The nature of these jobs are unsafe. If (and hopefully it won't happen) that company closes down, the effects will be devastating.
People will wrongly blame the company involved instead of the wreckless strategy being pursued.

opinion guy

I think the obvious solution here is to outlaw private health insurance for the moral abomination that it is, conscript all outstanding policies and the money paid to the VHI expanding the VHI to become a universal health insurer with means testing to be applied to everyone as they sign up to decide policies, and tell Aviva to go f**k themselves for turning profits off of sick people.

WalterMitty

opinion guy wrote: »

I think the obvious solution here is to outlaw private health insurance for the moral abomination that it is, conscript all outstanding policies and the money paid to the VHI expanding the VHI to become a universal health insurer with means testing to be applied to everyone as they sign up to decide policies, and tell Aviva to go f**k themselves for turning profits off of sick people.

moral abomination? Public consultants earning 200k + for public work only (33hours a week) while there isnt supposedly enough resources to keep people off trolleys in A&E is true moral abomination. If there wasnt likes of Aviva cost of providing health services would be even higher in this country. They have driven down costs in many areas like MRI scans which used to around 500pounds when it was mainly only done in public hospitals and is now 200euro or less in private clinics.
I personally beleive we should have a universal insurance scheme where those who cant afford insurance have it provided by state but having one big state health system/insurer usually leads to high costs and no incentive to get costs down.

A Primal Nut

opinion guy wrote: »

I think the obvious solution here is to outlaw private health insurance for the moral abomination that it is, conscript all outstanding policies and the money paid to the VHI expanding the VHI to become a universal health insurer with means testing to be applied to everyone as they sign up to decide policies, and tell Aviva to go f**k themselves for turning profits off of sick people.

At least people with Aviva can get good healthcare. People who go with the state end up on trolleys.

A Primal Nut

liammur wrote: »

I agree fully.

The IDA put in around 1,000 jobs into Carrick on Shannon. Nearly the same size as the town. The nature of these jobs are unsafe. If (and hopefully it won't happen) that company closes down, the effects will be devastating.
People will wrongly blame the company involved instead of the wreckless strategy being pursued.

Are you suggesting the IDA should have rejected those jobs and said no to Aviva?

liammur

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Are you suggesting the IDA should have rejected those jobs and said no to Aviva?

Maybe giving them subsidies in the region of €14K per worker is a little much. Proven industries yes, but call centres? Wake up IDA, they are taking you for a ride.

opinion guy

WalterMitty wrote: »

moral abomination? Public consultants earning 200k + for public work only (33hours a week) while there isnt supposedly enough resources to keep people off trolleys in A&E is true moral abomination. If there wasnt likes of Aviva cost of providing health services would be even higher in this country. They have driven down costs in many areas like MRI scans which used to around 500pounds when it was mainly only done in public hospitals and is now 200euro or less in private clinics.
I personally beleive we should have a universal insurance scheme where those who cant afford insurance have it provided by state but having one big state health system/insurer usually leads to high costs and no incentive to get costs down.

You are well named Walter.
There is not problem with the consultant getting 200k for 33 hours public work a week. I mean there is but its not the main problem. If it weren't for aviva, quinn and vhi paying them more money dragging them away from their public commitments to make money from private patients.
The cost of an mri depends on what body part is being scanned as much as who is doing the scan. Last time I had a private MRI it cost 400.

Companies like aviva, who are duty bound to make profits for shareholders only function to cipher money out of healthcare. They dont' add anything. Simply take the same money but it directly into services without having to give profits to shareholders and without having to pay the insurance company staff.

A Primal Nut wrote: »

At least people with Aviva can get good healthcare. People who go with the state end up on trolleys.

If you remove the two tier system this woulnd't happen. Or at least happen less.

jimmycrackcorm

If you want a taste of what a one tier system is like then simply don't pay for health insurance and rely instead on the public health system.

opinion guy

I fear we are getting a bit off topic here.

But that is not a one tier system. That is being on the lower tier of a one tier system. Most of the worlds top healthcare systems are one tier. Sweden, France or Cuba for example

Paulzx

liammur wrote: »

I agree fully.

The IDA put in around 1,000 jobs into Carrick on Shannon. Nearly the same size as the town. The nature of these jobs are unsafe. If (and hopefully it won't happen) that company closes down, the effects will be devastating.
People will wrongly blame the company involved instead of the wreckless strategy being pursued.

So your theory is that the IDA should have refused to accept these jobs as they might only last a finite amount of time?

What sort of codswallop is that?

If Intel offer another 500 jobs tomorrow we should tell them to feck off unless they guarantee the jobs for say, twenty years?

Mmm........interesting theory. Just as well you're not in charge of the IDA or the dole queues would be even worse.

Good loser

A job for a week, a month or a year is better than no job for an equal length of time.
At the very least doesn't it save on the social welfare?

Permabear

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dsmythy

opinion guy wrote: »

If you remove the two tier system this woulnd't happen. Or at least happen less.

Dump all the people currently paying health insurance into the already pressed public system and see how your one tier system works out. I'll keep my health insurance thank you very much, and I'm not exactly rolling in the dough.

blah

Here's an off the wall idea.

The government stop propping up house prices with NAMA and subsidised banks and people stop insisting that their 2 bedroom shoebox in Dublin 22 is "unique" and "still worth €X00,000". Also the government stops using rent allowance to keep rent artificially high.

Then salaries drop because people don't need high salaries, and these companies stick around. Talk Talk was mentioned earlier. The media mentioned during the closure that the job could be done for 1/10 of the cost abroad. But not much wa made if the fact that Talk Talk operate in the north of England where salaries and cost of living are lower.

Think about it, when you hear a TD or lobbyist on the radio saying "we hope house prices will rebound soon", they're really saying "we want to keep prices and salaries uncompetitively high so that you can't get jobs, but don't worry, we'll get rich"

Sorry for dragging out the house prices angle, I know we're all sick of it, I just think that changing the CEO of the IDA is like firing the weatherman because it rains.

JP 1800

That is the nail on the head, the cost of living and doing business in Ireland is way too much. As a country we really need to reevaluate ourselves and stop paying ourselves too much before we have nothing left. Also the sense of entitlement needs to be removed, fundamentally we are entitled to nothing until we have truly earned it.

ei.sdraob

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No! what we need is a frigging big wall with machine guns and dogs.

to keep our comrades and their companies in and to keep out the bourgeois influences

Squall19

blah wrote: »

Here's an off the wall idea.

The government stop propping up house prices with NAMA and subsidised banks and people stop insisting that their 2 bedroom shoebox in Dublin 22 is "unique" and "still worth €X00,000". Also the government stops using rent allowance to keep rent artificially high.

Then salaries drop because people don't need high salaries, and these companies stick around. Talk Talk was mentioned earlier. The media mentioned during the closure that the job could be done for 1/10 of the cost abroad. But not much wa made if the fact that Talk Talk operate in the north of England where salaries and cost of living are lower.

Think about it, when you hear a TD or lobbyist on the radio saying "we hope house prices will rebound soon", they're really saying "we want to keep prices and salaries uncompetitively high so that you can't get jobs, but don't worry, we'll get rich"

Sorry for dragging out the house prices angle, I know we're all sick of it, I just think that changing the CEO of the IDA is like firing the weatherman because it rains.

Well said.

A goverments job is to put in place an environment where businesses and job creation can prosper.

They have failed to make any difference, know ideas, know inspiration, nothing.

All they have done is up taxes since they came in.

They need to start showing some balls or we are in serious trouble.

opinion guy

To be honest what I really think is that the ball was really missed on all this in the late 90's early 00's. Now I now it was boom times etc etc, BUT when all the multinatiols were flocking here we didn't do nearly enough to promote scientific growth here. Most of those companies did their R&D elsewhere and just used us as a manufacturing hub, tax haven. There was a real opportunity back then to foster an entrepreneurial culture and promote home grown high tech r&d. This did happen a bit, but not nearly enough and the government didn't do enough to promote it. If they had we would have been less dependent on them now.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

thebman

opinion guy wrote: »

To be honest what I really think is that the ball was really missed on all this in the late 90's early 00's. Now I now it was boom times etc etc, BUT when all the multinatiols were flocking here we didn't do nearly enough to promote scientific growth here. Most of those companies did their R&D elsewhere and just used us as a manufacturing hub, tax haven. There was a real opportunity back then to foster an entrepreneurial culture and promote home grown high tech r&d. This did happen a bit, but not nearly enough and the government didn't do enough to promote it. If they had we would have been less dependent on them now.

Ireland's core problem is politicians with short term thinking. If it won't get them re-elected, they don't care so we get no long term vision.

A Primal Nut

opinion guy wrote: »

If you remove the two tier system this woulnd't happen. Or at least happen less.

I don't believe that for a second. It would be the same for everyone, except for the a few politicians who would make sure to get special treatment. Getting rid of private healthcare means those of us who prioritise healthcare will be forced unto an overcrowded public system which would get even worse than it already is.

The only public service (which could have been provided privately) I can say the state got close to right in this country is Education. Healthcare, Transport, and many others; the state have shown inefficiency, incompetance and corruption. I dont believe the state in this country will ever be able to run a good healthcare system. Getting rid of the private tier would make things even worse. Much better to get rid of the public tier and use the money saved to provide private insurance to the poorest in society.

listermint

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I don't believe that for a second. It would be the same for everyone, except for the a few politicians who would make sure to get special treatment. Getting rid of private healthcare means those of us who prioritise healthcare will be forced unto an overcrowded public system which would get even worse than it already is.

The only public service (which could have been provided privately) I can say the state got close to right in this country is Education. Healthcare, Transport, and many others; the state have shown inefficiency, incompetance and corruption. I dont believe the state in this country will ever be able to run a good healthcare system. Getting rid of the private tier would make things even worse. Much better to get rid of the public tier and use the money saved to provide private insurance to the poorest in society.

It can be done and has been done in other countries. We need to emulate that and stop fannying around. healthcare for profit is a business not healthcare.

opinion guy

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Getting rid of the private tier would make things even worse. Much better to get rid of the public tier and use the money saved to provide private insurance to the poorest in society.

Errr thats just semantics - getting rid of public or getting rid of private amounts to the same thing.

listermint wrote: »

It can be done and has been done in other countries. We need to emulate that and stop fannying around. healthcare for profit is a business not healthcare.

Indeed. Its morally offensive that insurance companies make profits out of the sick. They don't add any value, merely skim money off the system. At least big pharma contribute medications for their profits. At least medical devices companies contribute equipment for their profits. And generally these companies plough their profits back into R&D (yes cause hey have no choice but the point is they do this). Insurance companies just spend it on plush buildings, executives salaries and keeping shareholders happy.

Nothingbetter2d

we need to show these companies we are sick of outsourced services

boycott aviva products... if we are no longer good enough to employ then they are no longer good enough to use for insurance services.

RichardAnd

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

we need to show these companies we are sick of outsourced services

boycott aviva products... if we are no longer good enough to employ then they are no longer good enough to use for insurance services.

The sad thing in this is, if Aviva pulled out all together, we'd still have a stadium in the middle of Dublin named after them. Imagine that

run_Forrest_run

is that white elephant in D4 still going to bear the name of Ireland's greatest un-employer? The whole thing is sickening, so many families going to be badly hit from this.

Nothingbetter2d

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

is that white elephant in D4 still going to bear the name of Ireland's greatest un-employer? The whole thing is sickening, so many families going to be badly hit from this.

sadly yes

BuzzFish

unfortunately

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1019/aviva.html

swordofislam

opinion guy wrote: »

Insurance companies just spend it on plush buildings, executives salaries and keeping shareholders happy.

Cap their gross margin and you can control that behaviour.
Cap the dividend and you control that behaviour.

liammur

They are still committed to Ireland though and still employ hundreds.

RichardAnd

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

is that white elephant in D4 still going to bear the name of Ireland's greatest un-employer? The whole thing is sickening, so many families going to be badly hit from this.

To be fair, the stadium isn't a white elephant but I shall and ever will refer to it as Landsdown Road. Also, bare in mind that Dell put more than twice the number of people out of work as Aviva have.

But this is what happens when you rely on multi nationals. If Microsoft or Google found it profitable to lay off 3/4 of their employees, they would do it at the drop of a hat. I never thought I'd say this but there is some merit in the saying "people before profit".

Monty Burnz

RichardAnd wrote: »

I never thought I'd say this but there is some merit in the saying "people before profit".

Unfortunately the whole people before profit concept is a bunch of c0ck that can't work - while we are all sitting on our principles, the work will just move somewhere else where people are willing and able to do it. They'll be sending us aid packages from Africa.

The real lesson here is that our reliance on huge companies - and particularly overseas companies - is a huge mistake. We need to develop the sort of small and medium sized indigenous businesses that make up the mittlestand of the German economy - companies that do highly skilled and specialised work producing actual products that people want. They are not going to up sticks and move to Timbuktu, they bring well-paid jobs into local communities all over the country, and if one goes bust, you don't have hundreds or thousands out of jobs overnight.

The trick is to facilitate entrepreneurs in starting these businesses and developing the skills and workforce needed - and this will take decades. If we'd started the process in the 80s, we'd be laughing now.

And of course another evil effect of the property bubble was that investment was sucked out of productive businesses that employed people, with the vast majority of investors piling onto the property bandwagon where it seemed that any idiot could become a millionaire (for a short time). Now there's no culture of investing in small start-ups, no expertise in assessing them, and no appetite for risk for those who have money left to invest.

liammur

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Unfortunately the whole people before profit concept is a bunch of c0ck that can't work - while we are all sitting on our principles, the work will just move somewhere else where people are willing and able to do it. They'll be sending us aid packages from Africa.

The real lesson here is that our reliance on huge companies - and particularly overseas companies - is a huge mistake. We need to develop the sort of small and medium sized indigenous businesses that make up the mittlestand of the German economy - companies that do highly skilled and specialised work producing actual products that people want. They are not going to up sticks and move to Timbuktu, they bring well-paid jobs into local communities all over the country, and if one goes bust, you don't have hundreds or thousands out of jobs overnight.

The trick is to facilitate entrepreneurs in starting these businesses and developing the skills and workforce needed - and this will take decades. If we'd started the process in the 80s, we'd be laughing now.

And of course another evil effect of the property bubble was that investment was sucked out of productive businesses that employed people, with the vast majority of investors piling onto the property bandwagon where it seemed that any idiot could become a millionaire (for a short time). Now there's no culture of investing in small start-ups, no expertise in assessing them, and no appetite for risk for those who have money left to invest.

Correct, I've been saying it for years. To think we give €14K subsidies to companies like Talk Talk. Heads should roll in the IDA.

opinion guy

swordofislam wrote: »

Cap their gross margin and you can control that behaviour.
Cap the dividend and you control that behaviour.

Well doing that one mean they wouldn't stay in the market anyhow. But why capitulate with half measure - just outlaw the morally bankrupt "business" of private health insurance all together and bring in not for profit universal health insurance. Simples.

swordofislam

opinion guy wrote: »

Well doing that one mean they wouldn't stay in the market anyhow. But why capitulate with half measure - just outlaw the morally bankrupt "business" of private health insurance all together and bring in not for profit universal health insurance. Simples.

The same problem would arise as in Bord na Mona, ESB, HSE, Coillte, Iarnrod Eireann. The single universal insurance organisation would be captured by politicians and its workers and used to generate fat fat salaries and fat fat board positions and fat fat quangoes.

opinion guy

swordofislam wrote: »

The same problem would arise as in Bord na Mona, ESB, HSE, Coillte, Iarnrod Eireann. The single universal insurance organisation would be captured by politicians and its workers and used to generate fat fat salaries and fat fat board positions and fat fat quangoes.

This is not a foregone conclusion.

kennyb3

Why to the government continue to give a 60% rebate for the statutory part of any redundancy to these companies? Surely it lowers exist costs.

I'd love to know the premise behind this if anyone knows the answer

Dannyboy83

I saw one comment that it's 20% cheaper for them to relocate to London than to stay here.

If that's not cause for concern - for the rest of the country - I don't know what is.

HellFireClub

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Unfortunately the whole people before profit concept is a bunch of c0ck that can't work - while we are all sitting on our principles, the work will just move somewhere else where people are willing and able to do it. They'll be sending us aid packages from Africa.

The real lesson here is that our reliance on huge companies - and particularly overseas companies - is a huge mistake. We need to develop the sort of small and medium sized indigenous businesses that make up the mittlestand of the German economy - companies that do highly skilled and specialised work producing actual products that people want. They are not going to up sticks and move to Timbuktu, they bring well-paid jobs into local communities all over the country, and if one goes bust, you don't have hundreds or thousands out of jobs overnight.

The trick is to facilitate entrepreneurs in starting these businesses and developing the skills and workforce needed - and this will take decades. If we'd started the process in the 80s, we'd be laughing now.

And of course another evil effect of the property bubble was that investment was sucked out of productive businesses that employed people, with the vast majority of investors piling onto the property bandwagon where it seemed that any idiot could become a millionaire (for a short time). Now there's no culture of investing in small start-ups, no expertise in assessing them, and no appetite for risk for those who have money left to invest.

This is the thing, the left here is a Loony Left, led by loonies like Richard Boyd Barrett, Claire Daly & Joan Collins, who genuinely believe that every business person is a money sucking leach. 95% of jobs in this state are created by people who employ ten or less people, Collns, Boyd Barrett and Daly all believe that we should tax the owners of these small businesses into obliviation.

There is an ever increasing mass of Irish people who are getting increasingly SICK SICK SICK of how our country is being distroyed by greed, greed and more greed, yet they can't indentify with Joan Collins, Claire Daly or Richard Boyd Barrett. It's an awful pity that someone cannot connect all these people together and give them a voice that is not contaminated with the vindictive and begrudging bile that comes out of those loonie lefties mentioned above.

HellFireClub

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I saw one comment that it's 20% cheaper for them to relocate to London than to stay here.

If that's not cause for concern - for the rest of the country - I don't know what is.

3 years into this recession, have energy prices come down, have local authority rates, an absolute scourge on small businesses, come down, have professional services come down????

NOT A HOPE, Ireland is catastrophically finished, there is no hope of a recovery here, the mindset just isn't there for recovery, the approach is to tax the absolute and utter f*ck out of everything, and for what, to delivery appalling public services and to pay for a bailout that is paying for speculative mistakes that were made ten years ago. If that isn't a program for absolute failure, well then I don't know what is.

steve9859

Andrew33 wrote: »

Exactly, these companies are prepared to make massive profits here but dump hundreds of people on the dole when times get tough just to put 2c on their shareprice (it's all about the shareholder don't you know?). It really is a load of b*ll*x. I for one will not be renewing my health insurance with Aviva (don't bother telling me about protecting the remaining jobs in Aviva) and I certainly won't be going with that shower of crooks Quinn. Looks like I'm stuck with VHI so.

Jobs like this came to Ireland for the same reason, and we were quite happy to welcome them then, to the detriment of other countries. We should have told them that we didn't want their jobs, and to take them elsewhere