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The Battle of Aughrim on the original 12 July 1691

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Yes, I think all that is pretty well general knowledge. For sources, I was thinking of the Edict of Fontainebleau, which revoked the Edict of Nantes and made protestantism illegal in France, this was accompanied by the King's instruction to destroy Huegunot churches.

    In Ireland the destruction of Catholic churches and monasteries had already been pretty much accomplished by simply taking them over and turning the buildings Protestant. Which is why for example, Christchurch and St Patrick's Cathedrals and other older Protestant churches in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland were originally Catholic.
    For Spain, I was thinking of the Inquisition, which probably needs no explanation.

    I believe there were several Huguenot regiments at Aughrim and the Boyne, for these guys they were fighting for religious tolerance as victory would allow them to practice their particular flavour of religion.

    Tolerance and liberty are of course relevant only to those spouting the words. I'm pretty sure George Washington's slaves were somewhat bemused by declarations of freedom post 1783...

    Like I said - both France and Spain were targeting small numbers - the situation in Ireland was different in that almost the entire population had to be outed politically and economically. A court system like the inquisition would have overwhelmed the authorities - so they introduced the Penal Laws and simply made Catholics non-citizens. So I fail to see how more 'liberal' the Irish situation was.

    As for George Washington - he was not the worst by any means. He freed his slaves on his deathbed via his will in 1799.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Yes, I think all that is pretty well general knowledge. For sources, I was thinking of the Edict of Fontainebleau, which revoked the Edict of Nantes and made protestantism illegal in France, this was accompanied by the King's instruction to destroy Huegunot churches.

    For Spain, I was thinking of the Inquisition, which probably needs no explanation.

    That is Spain & France and is not pre 1691 Ireland ,and, the debate as to whether Ireland was a country or a colony is way beyond what I am trying for here.

    I am talking Aughrim and Connaught and the winners and loosers -pre and post Battle.

    I believe there were several Huguenot regiments at Aughrim and the Boyne, for these guys they were fighting for religious tolerance as victory would allow them to practice their particular flavour of religion.

    And William had funding from the Pope.

    So , what support did each side have in Ireland and how was that broken down.

    What occurs to me is that if the Hugenots were fighting for religious tolerance in France then they were fighting in the wrong country.

    Does anyone know the exact composition of the armies.

    There is some info here

    http://britisharmylineages.blogspot.com/2010/07/12-july-1691-battle-of-aughrim.html

    Were there pre Restoration of Charles II interested parties involved on either side ? Cromwells mob looking for the spoils of war ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »



    And William had funding from the Pope.

    So , what support did each side have in Ireland and how was that broken down.

    We are in danger - for the sake of both sides - of making too much of the Pope's funding of William. The Pope - Innocent XI - was acting from his own political point of view and had little interest in Ireland. He wanted a strong ally for the Roman Church in the Protestant camp - and William was definitely the man for that.

    On the other hand the Pope did not at all trust the French [well, who does?] so he considered James II to be far too cozy with them.

    Speed the tape forward to the nineteenth century and you also have the then Pope [Leo XIII] allying with the English Conservative Party against the Irish Home Rulers.

    History throws up many strange bedfellows.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    CDfm wrote: »
    Does anyone know the exact composition of the armies.

    There is some info here

    http://britisharmylineages.blogspot.com/2010/07/12-july-1691-battle-of-aughrim.html

    Were there pre Restoration of Charles II interested parties involved on either side ? Cromwells mob looking for the spoils of war ?

    The regiments of Hamilton and Tiffin from the order of battle in that link you posted are identified as Ulstermen from near Enniskillen in this link here, which is about the Boyne

    http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewtopic.php?t=1972


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »

    History throws up many strange bedfellows.

    Tut tut, none of that dirty talk on this thread.

    We do know that some families held on to land.

    Some Gore-Booth ancestry

    Francis Gore
    d. Feb 1712/13
    Pedigree Francis Gore was the son of Paul Gore and Isabella Wycliffe. He married Anne Parke, daughter of Robert Parke. He died in February 1712/13.
    Sir Paul's son, Sir Francis of Ardtermon, was the direct ancestor of the present
    Gore-Booth family of Lissadell. Sir Francis co-operated with the Cromwellians, yet
    reconciled himself with the Royalists and was granted land at the Restoration. He
    was elected M.P. for Co. Sligo in 1661. He married Anne Parke, surviving daughter
    and heiress of Capt. Robert Parke of Newtown Manor or Castle, alias Parke's
    Castle, just across the country boundary into Leitrim. She died in 1671, having
    borne Sir Francis nine sons and four daughters.

    http://virts.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~truax/smith-p/p29.htm

    And
    The Parents

    m6s6aicjogoampxnh1a9dzzq7k4g1nn$dy6q89z43b1hdb6gymtuydo40obeyhdThomas Fitzgerald, 18th Knight of Glin

    Enlarge image
    Thomas Fitzgerald, 18th Knight of Glin, locally known as Tomas Geancach (Thomas Snub-Nosed) was born c. 1675 - 1680, the eldest son of Gerald (17th) Knight of Glin and his wife, Joan O'Brien, one of the daughters of Donough O'Brien, a prince of Thomond, from CarrigoGlinnell Castle, Co. Limerick. Gerald, known as the Knight of the Horses, was killed fighting for James 11 at the second battle of Windmill Hill after the Siege of Derry on the 10th May 1689. (13) By adroit legalistic manoeuvrings, Gerald, by a deed of settlement (5th December 1672) left all his lands to his wife, Joan, who after the Williamite wars, was left in undisturbed possession of Glin,(14) As a result no Williamite received a grant of them, (15) nor were they included in the return made by the inquiry commissioners in 1699. (16)

    One of the most striking portraits at present day Glin Castle depicts Thomas Snub-Nosed (Cf. Fig. 1) In this, the first known portrait of the family (dated c. 1710) Thomas appears in his large wig and "has a remarkably sly expression",(16a) almost vulpine. He was foxy in appearance and in his dealings - a man of acuity with a quick temper when provoked. He had to be 'as there were rapacious people about, only too eager to annex portions of his estates had the opportunity arisen. Thomas may not have reached his 21st year when his father was killed. Like Gerald, Thomas was a Jacobite supporter but was probably too young to have played an active part in the war of the two kings. Following the capitulation of Limerick (1691) the position of known supporters of James 11, such as the Fitzgeralds, was precarious.

    However, on the 12th March 1701 Thomas re-established his claims over the estate and the portions deemed to have been forfeited at an inquisition of July. 1696, for himself and his family, when a claim was entered on his behalf and on behalf of his siblings with the Trustees at Chichester House, Dublin (no. 1656) by their guardian, Jeremy Donovan. (17) This claim was originally 'Dismist for non-proof (18) but 'Allowed and Referred' (19) before the end of 1700. Thomas married (probably before 1700) Mary Fitzgerald (Cf. Fig. 2) daughter and co-heiress of Edmund Fitzgerald of Castlemartyr, Co. Cork and his first wife, Catherine Burke of Cahirmoyle, Co. Limerick, who died young. Mary Fitzgerald had a younger brother John who "was born around 1687". (20) So Mary must have been born circa 1685/6.

    Mary was a fascinating person in her own right and much loved by the poets and people for her great generosity. Her portrait (cf. Fig. 2) painted c. 1710 shows a very handsome woman with long flowing hair and delicious orbs' (mammary glands) as the 18th century phrase had it. Mary and her brother John through their mother, were also heirs-at-law to John and Nicholas Bourke of Cahirmoyle, Co. Limerick and thus she was a very wealthy lady, on paper at least and had great expectations 'though at the time she made her will (1753) she was still 'entitled to a considerable sum of money' (21) from Castlemartyr and Ballinacurra, Co. Cork as well as from Cahirmoyle, Co. Limerick. After her mother's early death, her father re-married Alice Dillon by whom he had two daughters, living in 1700. (22)

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/big-houses-of-ireland/glin-castle-co.-limerick/the-four-brothers/the-parents/

    And another example not in Connaught was Art O'Laoighaires grandfather , Keadagh
    The original William Masters was a clerical officer of the Hollow Swords Blade Company who was involved in the sale of the tenancies in 1703. He “purchased” the Carrignacurra estate from Keadagh O’Leary who was acting on behalf of the O’Leary Merigah under-age family. William built Castlemasters House alongside the Castle and moved into it in 1723.

    Godert de Ginkell was made Earl of Athlone and was given a land grant of the estates of the Earl of Limerick who was killed during the Battle of the Boyne and a partial reversal of the forteiture by Act of Parliment in favour of a Catholic Earl
    In 1687, the Assembly of New York was dissolved by the king, and in 1688 Andros was appointed Governor of the consolidated Provinces of New York and New England. Dongan refused command of a regiment with the rank of major-general, retired to his estate on Staten Island, New York, but was obliged to flee for safety in the religious persecution aroused by Lesler in 1689. In 1691 he returned to England. By the death of his brother William (1698), late Governor of the Province of Munster, Ireland, whose only son, Colonel Walter, Lord Dongan, was killed at the battle of the Boyne, Dongan became Earl of Limerick. In 1702 he was recognized as successor to his brother's estates, but only on payment of claims of the purchasers from the Earl of Athlone. Dongan died poor and without direct heirs. By will, dated 1713, he provided that he be buried at an expense of not over £100, and left the residue of his estate to his niece, wife of Colonel Nugent, afterwards Marshal of France. The tribute of history to his personal charm, his integrity, and character, is outspoken and universal. His public papers give evidence of a keen mind and a sense of humour. He was a man of courage, tact, and capacity, an able diplomat, and a statesman of prudence and remarkable foresight. In spite the brief term of five years as Governor of New York Province, by virtue of the magnitude, of the enduring and far-reaching character of his achievements, he stands forth as one of the greatest constructive statesmen ever sent out by England for the government of any of her American colonial possessions.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05130a.htm

    I am confused.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭basillarkin


    A great read is Irish Battles by G. A. Hayes-Mc Coy. Well worth a look.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    A great read is Irish Battles by G. A. Hayes-Mc Coy. Well worth a look.

    Yes that's already been mentioned on the thread


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74759373&postcount=13


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    MarchDub wrote: »

    History throws up many strange bedfellows.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Tut tut, none of that dirty talk on this thread.



    Oh dear :o- sorry for spreading more rumours about William. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Oh dear :o- sorry for spreading more rumours about William. :pac:

    No worries, remember that thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056206669

    I don't mind William's orientation its the pretend Irishmen that get me going.

    The accession of James II gave new life to Catholic aspirations. Matthew, the 7th Baron Louth, joined the Jacobite cause in 1689 and commanded an infantry regiment at the siege of Derry. He was outlawed and exiled, and died in September 1689. Thomas, his second son, who had been sent to France for his education, returned and took part in the Jacobite campaigns, and was at Derry, the Boyne, Limerick, Aughrim and again at Limerick for the surrender, after which he sailed with Sarsfield for the continent. He had been indicted and outlawed after the Battle of the Boyne, and after the war ended he was indicted for high treason committed ‘in parts beyond the sea’. He remained in the service of France for many years but returned to Louth Hall where he made a will in 1732 and died soon after. His son Matthew was a captain in the Austrian Imperial infantry.
    The 8th Baron Louth, Oliver, was only twenty-one when he succeeded to the title in 1689. Like his brother, he joined the Jacobite forces and was outlawed, and was in Limerick at the surrender in 1691. He was pardoned under the Articles of Limerick. He was made secure in his estates without much trouble and intended to resume his hereditary place in the Irish House of Lords. But he was prevented from taking his seat on the grounds that he had not proved the reversal of his grandfather’s outlawry for rebellion in 1641. Eventually, the question of outlawry was resolved and he was summoned to the House of Lords. In October 1695 Lord Louth took the oath of fidelity. But he refused to take both the oath of royal supremacy over the church and a declaration against Catholic religious practices and beliefs, and was ordered to withdraw. Attitudes towards Catholics hardened from the late 1690s under the Popery Acts, and it was another hundred years before a holder of the Louth title was permitted to sit in the House of Lords.
    During the period of the Penal Laws, life was made hard for landowning Catholics. Like several other Catholic landowners in county Louth, the Plunketts changed their religion in the early 1700s. Matthew, the 9th Baron Louth (1698-1754), was a minor when his father Oliver died in November 1707. Eighteen months later he was brought to England and was put under the guardianship of Matthew Aylmer, a first cousin of his grandfather, and a convert to Protestantism. Matthew, the heir to the Louth title, was a sickly child, but grew up to marry an Englishwoman, father an heir and settle in Louth Hall. His guardian, Aylmer, saw that he was educated in the Protestant religion. Aylmer unsuccessfully petitioned Queen Anne on Matthew’s behalf seeking that the minor be restored to all the family’s honours. Matthew remained a Protestant and his descendents were members of the Church of Ireland for many generations. But in the nineteenth century the family returned to the Catholic faith and Randal Percy Otway, the 13th Baron, was received into the Catholic Church on 6 December 1867.
    Thomas Oliver, the 11th Baron Louth (1757-1823), had the outlawry of his great grandfather annulled, and took his seat in the House of Lords in 1798. His son, also Thomas Oliver, born in 1809, became the 12th Baron Louth. He died in 1849. After their involvement in the wars of the seventeenth century, none of the Plunketts of Tallanstown were prominent in national affairs.

    http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/louth.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭basillarkin


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Yes that's already been mentioned on the thread


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74759373&postcount=13
    Sorry missed it, anyone interested in the book, pm me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    As an aside about dates. The ironic thing about the 12th is that when the british switched to the Gregorian calendar in the mid 18th century they miscalulated the number of days they need to add for historic events.

    So in Julian Calendar Battle of Boyne occured on 1st of July, with switch to Gregorian calendar they added 11 instead of 10 days to get the new date of 12th July. In comparison all french records from time (10k french troops were at the Boyne) have the date of the Battle as the 11th of July!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Sorry missed it, anyone interested in the book, pm me.

    Thats really generous, there must have been lots of Irish Battles I wonder what the top 10 are ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭basillarkin


    CDfm wrote: »
    Thats really generous, there must have been lots of Irish Battles I wonder what the top 10 are ?
    Clontarf 1014, Dublin 1171, Dysert O’Dea 1318, Knockdoe 1504, Farsetmore 1567, Clontibert 1595, Yellow Ford 1598, Moyry Pass 1600, Kinsale 1601, Benburb 1646, Rathmines 1649, The Boyne 1690, Aughrim 1691, Arklow 1798,


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Clontarf 1014, Dublin 1171, Dysert O’Dea 1318, Knockdoe 1504, Farsetmore 1567, Clontibert 1595, Yellow Ford 1598, Moyry Pass 1600, Kinsale 1601, Benburb 1646, Rathmines 1649, The Boyne 1690, Aughrim 1691, Arklow 1798,

    Battle of Tara in 980 was probably more important then clontarf. The massive defeat the Kingdom of Dublin suffered probably prevent a viking "conquest" ala what happened in England (Danelaw, and then later Canute). However the Dál gCais had better propagandists then the Uí Néill in this regard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Battle of Tara in 980 was probably more important then clontarf. .

    I have vaguely read about that, a bit like Aughrim. It would be great to see an Irish battles thread on history.
    In comparison all french records from time (10k french troops were at the Boyne) have the date of the Battle as the 11th of July!

    What were the french doing there.

    James was half french ,was he not ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have vaguely read about that, a bit like Aughrim. It would be great to see an Irish battles thread on history.


    What were the french doing there.

    James was half french ,was he not ?

    Well they were Louis XIV contribution to the war, after all Ireland was just one theatre of a pan-European war. When they arrived 10k Irish troops had to go to France to replace them (this in early 1690), these formed the core of the Irish brigade which later rapidly expanded after the surrender of Limerick in 1691 (when the Jacobite army was allowed to sail to France -- 15k men)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well they were Louis XIV contribution to the war, after all Ireland was just one theatre of a pan-European war. When they arrived 10k Irish troops had to go to France to replace them (this in early 1690), these formed the core of the Irish brigade which later rapidly expanded after the surrender of Limerick in 1691 (when the Jacobite army was allowed to sail to France -- 15k men)

    Were they Irish or French natives ????


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    CDfm wrote: »
    Were they Irish or French natives ????

    French of course, my point was that the French troops that arrived in Ireland in late 1689/early 1690 were in exchange for the equivalent number of Irish troops who were sent to France at the same time (early 1690). Of course after the Boyne the French contigent was removed leaving only a number of French Generals and particulary engineers to fight on Jacobite side.

    The Boyne was in reality not much more a large Skirmish then a full scale battle, James had detached the strongest part of his army (including the french) and sent it west to counter Williamite move, problem was that there was a ravine seperating these two groups. Instead the main Williamite trust came across the river. The Jacobite army remained intact etc, the main issue was really the presence of James in command.

    It was quite an international day you had troops from:
    • Ireland
    • Britain
    • France
    • Denmark
    • Netherlands
    • Germany

    At Aughrim the Jacobites were under control of French general St. Ruth, whereas the Williamites were under control of the Dutch general Ginkell. The Jacobites actually had an upper hand until St. Ruth was killed by a canonball. This led to panic reaction on Jacobite side and a rout. It's one of those great what if's. If St. Ruth hadn't been hit head by canon shot he would have won the battle.

    By far Aughrim was the most important battle of the war. The destruction of the Jacobite field army led of course to the surrender of Limerick (Treaty of Limerick) and Galway and to the end of the war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dubhthach wrote: »
    French of course, my point was that the French troops that arrived in Ireland in late 1689/early 1690 were in exchange for the equivalent number of Irish troops who were sent to France at the same time (early 1690). .

    I just wondered if they were Irish in the pay of France - Wild Geese and how come the troop swap. People fight better if they fight for their homes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    I just wondered if they were Irish in the pay of France - Wild Geese and how come the troop swap. People fight better if they fight for their homes.

    In the 17th century people fought for wages and that was it (more or less).

    One of the reasons Parliament won the civil war was because they paid better than the Royalists did.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    In the 17th century people fought for wages and that was it (more or less).

    And at Aughrim ???


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    CDfm wrote: »
    I just wondered if they were Irish in the pay of France - Wild Geese and how come the troop swap. People fight better if they fight for their homes.

    That wasn't actually the case back then though, most people probably weren't fighting for their homes, but for the home of their lord and were probably quite prone to desertion. The French troops also would have been more experienced and higher quality than the Irish since the Irish army had only been organised a few years previously by Tyrconnel. In the end though the French played almost no part in the battle itself, but one regiment fought a rearguard that probably helped save a portion of the army from being routed.

    The Regiments:
    Famechon-1055-(Walloon)
    Forez-1097(French)
    Le Marche-1097-(French)
    Mérode-855-(French)
    Tournaiss-1097-(French)
    Zurlauben-2090(German commanded by a Swiss)


    Interestingly William did the exact same thing, he sent a number of English regiments to Flanders in exchange for some Dutch regiments, as he was concerned about the loyalty of the English if the situation would change and James take the upper hand.

    I'll post the full Boyne Order of Battle soon.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jacobite Order of Battle for the Boyne, which I think could be assumed to be similar to the order of battle for Aughrim, since Jacobite casualties were low at the Boyne, but I have marked any changes that I know that occured sure as people leaving for France or getting killed. Also this was a field army so I'll assume these regiments would be unlikely to have been posted to garrisons.

    Regiments of Horse:
    Life Guards (James)
    Duke of Tyrconnel (moved to France)
    Viscount Galmoy
    Colonel Sutherland
    Colonel Parker
    Colonel Sarsfield
    Earl of Abercorn


    Dragoons:
    Brigadier Maxwell
    Sir Niall O'Neill (killed)
    Lord Dongan (killed)
    Lord Clare
    Colonel Clifford
    Colonel Carroll

    Foot:
    Foot Guards
    Earl of Antrim
    Lord Bellew
    Gordon O'Neill
    Lord Louth
    Lord Grand-Prior
    John Grace
    ArtMcMahon
    Hugh McMahon
    John Hamilton
    Earl of Westmeath
    Sir Michael Creagh (Protestant)
    Roger MacElligott
    Charles O'Brien
    Maj Gen. Boisseleau
    Dudley Bagenal
    Earl of Tyrone
    Lord Slane
    Henry Dillon
    Earl of Clanrickarde
    Lord Galway
    Walter Bourke
    Lord Gormanston
    Richard Nugent

    Edit: Colonel Henry Luttrell is known to have fought at Aughrim, but he was not present at the Boyne.

    I also found this interesting account of the battle while seaching for Luttrell first name, it's quite interesting and mentions some regiments by name
    http://places.galwaylibrary.ie/history/chapter76.html
    but it does seem a bit biased towards Patrick Sarsfield.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    And finally an analysis on the Williamite regiments at Aughrim from CDfm's link earlier
    A-I=Anglo-Irish)

    Leveson (A-I,)
    Cuningham (Irish,Enniskillen)
    Earl of Oxford (A-I)
    Langston (A-I)
    Earl of Meath (Irish, originally Protestant raised for James but rejected)
    Louigni
    Hamilton (Irish, Enniskillen)
    Herbert (A-I)
    Willers (Villers, A-I)
    Major General Kirke (A-I)
    Sir Henry Bellasis (A-I)
    Erle (A-I)
    Trojada
    Trelawney (A-I)
    Nasfare

    Beleastel
    Cambon (Huguenot)
    La Melloniere (Huguenot)
    la Forest
    Eretien
    Donep (Danish)
    Friedrie
    Secheflaid (danish)
    Georrge (Danish I think)
    Boncour
    Portland
    Ford
    Eppinger (Dutch dragoons)

    2nd Line
    Wind (possibly Wynne, Enniskillen dragoons)
    Lanier (A-I)
    Bruar (possibly Brewer? A-I)
    Wolstai
    Foulkes (A-I)
    Berlai (Byerley A-I)
    Wolselai (Wolseley, Enniskillen )
    Stauard (stuart A-I)
    Lisbonne (Lisburn, Irish)
    Tiffeni (Tiffin, Enniskillen)
    John (St.John, Derry)

    Babingtoon (Dutch)
    Breben
    Brandenburg(dutch)
    Pridehofe
    Darmstadt (probably Dutch)
    illegible, possibly Voets, Dutch
    Nasfare
    Genkil (Ginkel-Dutch)
    Schar
    Finladois (Danish)
    Seeland (Danish)
    Ninbaufen (Nyenburg? Dutch)
    Riedefel (Dutch)
    Montponil (Dutch)

    Reading the names off that picture was tough so if anyone can find corrections please post them up.

    Edit: I've gone through the list again and marked any Irish regiments I was able to identify, but note that there could be more Irish regiments amongst the A-I.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Absolutely fantastic riff.

    I have been digging too and this might be of interest to the genealogists out there - King James Irish Army List

    http://www.archive.org/details/illustrationshi00dalgoog

    Its readable and you can download it.

    And King Williams account book was found in 2009

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8323461.stm

    EDIT

    The Landed Gentry when Cromwell came to Ireland and these would probably the families who held land etc at this time following the restoration.

    http://www.archive.org/details/irishlandedgentr00ohar


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Now that we have sorted out who was involved, here is one account of the battle
    The Battle of Aughrim - 1691
    Additional reading available from our on-line shop
    "Aughrim The Last Battle"
    by Cecil Kilpatrick
    The site of this battle was Kilcommadan or Aughrim Hill - which stretches south-eastward from the ruined castle and village of Aughrim and which forms the western skyline.
    Seen in retrospect, the battle of the Boyne must be regarded as decisive, but it was not the end of the war. The defeated Jacobites were still a fighting force and were still to fight stubbornly before King William could claim victory in Ireland.
    The Williamite army moved forward from Athlone on 11th July 1691. The next day there was skirmishing as it came into contact with the Jacobite outposts.
    Froude's account of the battle
    battle_aughrim.jpgSunday, the I2th July, dawned thick and hazy; a damp fog lay spread over the marshes, which did not lift until in the afternoon. At half-past four, with five hours of daylight remaining, the mist blew off and the English advanced. English properly they were not. English regiments were intermixed with Danes, French Huguenots, Scots, Dutch, Brandenburghers, and Anglo-Irish Protestants, the fitter to try an issue which, however distinguished, was an episode in the long European struggle for liberty of conscience.
    The battle was long doubtful. The ground was trenched in all directions, and the ditches were lined with Irish sharpshooters, who stood their ground bravely, and again and again Ginkel's columns, rushing forward to close with them, were driven back in confusion. Once St. Ruth believed the day was his own, he was heard to swear that he would hunt the Saxon into Dublin. Almost immediately after he was killed by a cannon-ball. The Hugnenot cavalry, led by Henri de Ruvigny, made a charge, behind which the English infantry rallied. At last, late in the evening, the Irish gave way, broke up, and scattered. Few or no prisoners were taken, and few were reported wounded. Those who escaped, escaped, those who were overtaken were made an end of. Seven thousand men were killed before darkness and rain ended the pursuit. The wreck of the defeated army divided; part went to Galway, part to Limerick, where the last act of the drama was to be played out.
    (From Froude Vol 1 page 221)
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    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/history/battle_aughrim.html


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    CDfm wrote: »
    I read somewhere that this was the largest battle to be fought on Irish Soil and was the decisive battle between the Williamites and the Jacobites.

    That said I know little about it other than it was won by the Williamites and became obscured historically by the much less important Battle of the Boyne.

    How it got obscured was when the gregorian callender was adopted in Britain in 1752 the lore that was built up around the "Glorious Twelfth" got swapped over to the "skirmish" in Co Meath.

    The anniversary of the decisive battle now fell on the 22nd July.

    I know knothing about the battle and would love to know more.

    take a trip down to Aughrim, there is a centre there, well worth a look. You can even check out the fields!!! Read up on any book on Patrick Sarsfield too. Athlone(Athlone centre/castle is closed for now - it would have been handy to get two history muesums close to each other - worth travelling down) fell shortly before Aughrim (after a second go, the first in 1690, Grace was the main fella there - Athlone was meant to have had suffered the most bombardment - Jacobites lost their lives trying to cut down the town bridge only for the clever Williamites finding a ford to cross the Shannon and into Connaught)

    It is an extremely interesting time in Irish History.

    In a nutshell St Ruth (Jacobite) was extremely arrogant and he taught with his prowess in field warfare, he would hammer the Williamites, only to be completely beaten. It turned out that the land in Aughrim was not too great for the horses, it was a shambolic fights (yeah i would have done better lol)As one poster pointed out, the Jacobites actually had the upper hand in Aughrim. As for Athlone, they surrendered too easily. Sarsfield had rushed to get there but was too late.

    Boyne is considered the starting point of the Williamites foothold on the war. Its more symbolic but no where near as vital as Aughrim, I thought even Derry would have more importance than the Boyne.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm



    Boyne is considered the starting point of the Williamites foothold on the war. Its more symbolic but no where near as vital as Aughrim, I thought even Derry would have more importance than the Boyne.

    Thanks. I was at Aughrim and did not really take in much at the time.

    Aughrim seems to have been more like a "Battle for Connaught/South" whereas the Boyne seemed to be more like a symbolic event long after the saga of the flight of the Earls and the Plantation of Ulster etc. Is this right or am I being too simplistic.

    Derry would have been more significant. I visited there over 2 years ago and did the walls etc and it is well worth a visit. It is surprising how small it was and there was a lot of info on the commercial/trade nature that drove it. Think the East India company.

    Back to Aughrim, St Ruth miscalculated and got his with a cannonball.

    Have we covered the battle itself enough here or do we go on to the people and the aftermath ?

    Post the Williamite War in Ireland Scotland and England had more Stuart vs Hanoverian issues.

    Do we proceed now to what happened next and the status of the defeated and the victors. ?

    I think its a mistake to lump the Scotch Irish & Presbyterians in with the English or to ignore lurking Cromwellians hoping to re-establish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Aughrim was the Battle of the Williamite Wars in Ireland.

    So now I want to look at what happened next ?

    The winners and the loosers in terms of muck and brass ?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    The significance of the battle of Aughrim was that it smashed the Jacobites West of the Shannon and gave control of the west of Ireland to the Williamites.
    They battle of Aughrim was the immediate sequel to the Siege of Athlone.
    In 1691 Athlone was the most important strategic point in the two islands. No King of Britain could rest easy with hostile forces West of the Shannon. There were very few locations at which the Shannon could be crossed. These were relatively easily defended since they consisted of bridges.
    A hostile force in the West could break out and cause trouble at any time thus tying up large numbers of troops to secure the East of the country.
    The Siege of Athlone lasted almost two weeks. It was the largest cannon barrage in history up to that time. When the Williamites succeeded in getting across, massive celebrations ensued. They now controlled the bridge of Athlone and had a supply line back to Dublin. Cannon were fired in Holland in celebration. General Ginkell, the Dutch commander, was created Earl of Athlone. The Jacobites retreated to Aughrim and were followed by the Williamites. More troops actually engaged in this battle than any of the other battles of this war. There were massive numbers killed. After the follow up battle in Limerick, the Jacobites had ceased to be a force of any consequence West of the Shannon.
    Permanent military installations were constructed West of the Shannon in Athlone in the years after the siege. These remained militarily significant up to the First World War.

    Ahem, I know what you are saying (and your right), but, Athlone Barracks (apparently one of the oldest barracks in Europe) is still a Military Significant to the State. (if we have a nuclear bomb, the President, apparently will be coming to Athlone to take cover in the Underground bunker)The Barracks is one of few/only barracks not named/renamed after men of 1916. Sgt Custume being one of the men responsible for tearing down the bridge in 1691

    The Magazine hills on the West can still be seen (well, its now Battery Heights residential area) , and naturally, a number of streets are named after the men (even, at once, at bloody nightclub!)


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