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The Battle of Aughrim on the original 12 July 1691
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03-10-2011 9:50pm#1
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Well these are two wiki's but anyway, according to them : The Battle of the Boyne ( BoB ) had 25,000 on James side with 1,500 causalties. 36,000 on Williams with 750 causalities. Aughrim 18,000 on James side with 4,000 killed. 20,000 with William and 3,000 killed. So therefore Aughrim was a much more pivotal battle in the campaign. The "Glorious Twelfth" is probably the biggest myth in Irish history i.e.I read somewhere that this was the largest battle to be fought on Irish Soil and was the decisive battle between the Williamites and the Jacobites.
That said I know little about it other than it was won by the Williamites and became obscured historically by the much less important Battle of the Boyne.
How it got obscured was when the gregorian callender was adopted in Britain in 1752 the lore that was built up around the "Glorious Twelfth" got swapped over to the "skirmish" in Co Meath.
The anniversary of the decisive battle now fell on the 22nd July.
I know knothing about the battle and would love to know more.
* " king Billy 'bait' the Pope at the Boyne " when in fact William was supported by the Pope.
* the campaign brought in " Civil and religious liberty " when in fact it did the exact opposite as the Penal Laws etc were to follow
* the " Glorious revoulotion was bloodless " - need I say any more :rolleyes:
* William was little more than a Dutch mercenary who defeated an English king and was also gay, something our unionist friends like to leave out of course
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aughrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne0 -
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HellsAngel wrote: »Well these are two wiki's but anyway, according to them : The Battle of the Boyne ( BoB ) had 25,000 on James side with 1,500 causalties. 36,000 on Williams with 750 causalities. Aughrim 18,000 on James side with 4,000 killed. 20,000 with William and 3,000 killed. So therefore Aughrim was a much more pivotal battle in the campaign. The "Glorious Twelfth" is probably the biggest myth in Irish history i.e.
* " king Billy 'bait' the Pope at the Boyne " when in fact William was supported by the Pope.
* the campaign brought in " Civil and religious liberty " when in fact it did the exact opposite as the Penal Laws etc were to follow
* the " Glorious revoulotion was bloodless " - need I say any more :rolleyes:
* William was little more than a Dutch mercenary who defeated an English king and was also gay, something our unionist friends like to leave out of course
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aughrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne
Compared to France and Spain, it was rampant liberalism. France had just declared Protestantism illegal and Spain was still having its inquisition. I'm not sure being gay was a crime then though, is it isn't today so I fail to see the relevance of that.0 -
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HellsAngel wrote: »
* William was little more than a Dutch mercenary who defeated an English king and was also gay, something our unionist friends like to leave out of courseFratton Fred wrote: »I'm not sure being gay was a crime then though, is it isn't today so I fail to see the relevance of that.
FYI – it was against the law in England to be homosexual at the time of William’s reign. A law against homosexual acts [or sodomy as it was called] was passed during the reign of Henry VIII. It was called The Buggery Act, 1533. It was punishable by death and confiscation of all property by the Crown. Walter Hungerford was the first to be executed in 1540 under this law for the crime of buggery - although he really was just another victim of Henry’s murderous reign because Hungerford had apparently sided with the Pilgrimage of Grace, the English Catholic armed rebellion against Henry’s religious ‘reforms’.
The death penalty part of the law was lifted only in 1861 when prison terms were introduced. But this was followed by The Criminal Law Amendment Act in 1885 a stricter law that actually criminalized private homosexual acts referred to as 'gross indecency'. This was the law that sent Oscar Wilde to gaol for two years hard labour, solitary confinement.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »I know, but let's not go there.
Eer
- Fred, I think you were doing the driving when we went down that road.
But brakes on now.0 -
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No one in the world has ever tried to hype themselves up with the conceited lies that they alone defeated Germany in WW2 than the BritsFratton Fred wrote: »I wouldn't expect a bigoted homophobic twat like you to understand liberalism, but in reality, the Battle of the Boyne and the Battle at Aughrim were a mere sideshow in the european wide battle between various religious groups.
If Britain had taken the same approach that France and Spain took, there would be no need for the penal laws as catholics would have been either driven from the country, or slaughtered.
but of course, no one in the world has ever suffered as much as the Irish have......:rolleyes: !!!! And don't forget how they alone also defeated the Japanese !!!!
One of the things about the Brits is that they like to mouth off that no army has invaded Britain since the Normans in 1066 ( but they like to pride themselves on invading everyone else country But that's the Brits for you, they just LOVE themselves :rolleyes:). When in fact the Dutch gay mercenary William of Orange invaded Britain in 1688. 0 -
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I think that to say Ireland had the Spanish or French variety of Catholicism at that time , as Fred hs implied, is not sustainable.
In England you had a Civil war but Ireland's situation was not clear cut.
William was considered a modern liberal prince in Europe but that may not have translated to his treatment of the Irish Catholics in Ireland or the Ulster Presbyterians either. Thats why the composition of the Armies is important to me as to who acquired land post Aughrim and why.
As to Williams sexual orientation. It is not of any consequence though he made one of his alledged lovers Earl of Athlone and had to reverse a land grant.
Rumours were rife in the UK.
So a bit about King William ;
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=+1]William III, Prince of Orange, King of England (1650-1702) [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Times,Times New Roman,serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Times,Times New Roman,serif]Speculations about William III's sexuality have been countered by his English and American biographers, who have been unwilling to entertain the idea that a man of his nobility of character and special historical significance could have loved other men. Dutch writers on the other hand have been much more willing to accept the evidence that William was, indeed, bisexual. [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Times,Times New Roman,serif] William was born at the Hague in 1650, the posthumous son of William II, who died a few days before he was born, and Mary Stuart, daughter of the late King Charles I of England, who had been deposed by English Parliamentarians. William was thus an important figure in European politics from the day of his birth, since he not only inherited his Dutch titles, but was fourth in line to inherit the British throne should it be restored.
Sponsor Message.
His claim to the British throne was reinforced in 1677, when he married the daughter of James, Duke of York, who was to succeed to the British monarchy in 1685.
William III acceded to the British throne when the English ousted James II in the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688. He and his wife, Mary II, ruled together until her death in 1694. After her death, he ruled alone until he died in 1702. The couple was childless, so he was succeeded by Mary's sister Anne.
As "stadholder" (military commander) of the Dutch Republic, William had opposed the aggressions of Louis XIV that threatened the Netherlands and neighboring states. For this he was hailed by the Dutch as the "Redeemer of the Fatherland."
When he brought England into the coalition against France he became the acknowledged champion of Protestant Europe. It is this preeminence as an international hero that has made it hard for Anglophone admirers to candidly assess William's sexual orientation.
William had close and affectionate relations with two notable favorites, William Bentinck, whom he brought to England and made Earl of Portland, and a handsome younger Dutchman, Arnold van Keppel, whom he created Earl of Albemarle.
A spate of political satires accusing William of intimate relations with both men circulated during his reign. These scurrilous poems are quite explicit in their allegations, and are obviously the work of Tory partisans who favored James. For this reason they have been discounted by William's defenders.
One satire begins: "For the case, Sir, is such, / That the people think much, / That your love is Italian, your government Dutch. / Ah! Who would have thought that a Low-Country Stallion, / and a Protestant Prince should prove an Italian?" (Italy was the country most notably associated with sodomy in the seventeenth century.) Jonathan Swift also referred to William's "infamous pleasures" with Keppel in a manuscript note. All this has, however, been dismissed as the malicious gossip of Tory enemies.
Nevertheless, rumors were also rife among those favorable to the king. These include the redoubtable "Madame," Duchess of Orléans, who was married to France's most flamboyantly conspicuous homosexual, "Monsieur," and whose correspondence makes up a veritable encyclopedia of homosexuality in that country and England. Her letters are admiring of the king but speak repeatedly of "men who share King William's inclinations."
Rumors also circulated in the Dutch army, which was fanatically loyal to the house of Orange.
Most telling, however, are the remarks of Bishop Gilbert Burnet, who praised William unstintingly as "a person raised up by God to resist the power of France and the progress of tyranny and persecution." Yet in considering matters that might make it difficult for William to assume the English throne, Burnet refers to one "particular . . . too tender to be put in writing," which under the circumstances can only be interpreted as a reference to William's sexual nature.
To nineteenth-century liberal historians such as Thomas Macaulay, William III ranked as one of England's greatest kings for his fostering of religious and political liberty and for his leadership of the European nations who fought Louis XIV.
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/william_III.html
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The Keppels are still around and one Duchess of Cornwall is descended from a Keppel who was a royal mistress.0 -
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History throws up many strange bedfellows.
Tut tut, none of that dirty talk on this thread.
We do know that some families held on to land.
Some Gore-Booth ancestry
Francis Gore
d. Feb 1712/13
Pedigree Francis Gore was the son of Paul Gore and Isabella Wycliffe. He married Anne Parke, daughter of Robert Parke. He died in February 1712/13.
Sir Paul's son, Sir Francis of Ardtermon, was the direct ancestor of the present
Gore-Booth family of Lissadell. Sir Francis co-operated with the Cromwellians, yet
reconciled himself with the Royalists and was granted land at the Restoration. He
was elected M.P. for Co. Sligo in 1661. He married Anne Parke, surviving daughter
and heiress of Capt. Robert Parke of Newtown Manor or Castle, alias Parke's
Castle, just across the country boundary into Leitrim. She died in 1671, having
borne Sir Francis nine sons and four daughters.
http://virts.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~truax/smith-p/p29.htm
AndThe ParentsThomas Fitzgerald, 18th Knight of Glin
Enlarge image
Thomas Fitzgerald, 18th Knight of Glin, locally known as Tomas Geancach (Thomas Snub-Nosed) was born c. 1675 - 1680, the eldest son of Gerald (17th) Knight of Glin and his wife, Joan O'Brien, one of the daughters of Donough O'Brien, a prince of Thomond, from CarrigoGlinnell Castle, Co. Limerick. Gerald, known as the Knight of the Horses, was killed fighting for James 11 at the second battle of Windmill Hill after the Siege of Derry on the 10th May 1689. (13) By adroit legalistic manoeuvrings, Gerald, by a deed of settlement (5th December 1672) left all his lands to his wife, Joan, who after the Williamite wars, was left in undisturbed possession of Glin,(14) As a result no Williamite received a grant of them, (15) nor were they included in the return made by the inquiry commissioners in 1699. (16)
One of the most striking portraits at present day Glin Castle depicts Thomas Snub-Nosed (Cf. Fig. 1) In this, the first known portrait of the family (dated c. 1710) Thomas appears in his large wig and "has a remarkably sly expression",(16a) almost vulpine. He was foxy in appearance and in his dealings - a man of acuity with a quick temper when provoked. He had to be 'as there were rapacious people about, only too eager to annex portions of his estates had the opportunity arisen. Thomas may not have reached his 21st year when his father was killed. Like Gerald, Thomas was a Jacobite supporter but was probably too young to have played an active part in the war of the two kings. Following the capitulation of Limerick (1691) the position of known supporters of James 11, such as the Fitzgeralds, was precarious.
However, on the 12th March 1701 Thomas re-established his claims over the estate and the portions deemed to have been forfeited at an inquisition of July. 1696, for himself and his family, when a claim was entered on his behalf and on behalf of his siblings with the Trustees at Chichester House, Dublin (no. 1656) by their guardian, Jeremy Donovan. (17) This claim was originally 'Dismist for non-proof (18) but 'Allowed and Referred' (19) before the end of 1700. Thomas married (probably before 1700) Mary Fitzgerald (Cf. Fig. 2) daughter and co-heiress of Edmund Fitzgerald of Castlemartyr, Co. Cork and his first wife, Catherine Burke of Cahirmoyle, Co. Limerick, who died young. Mary Fitzgerald had a younger brother John who "was born around 1687". (20) So Mary must have been born circa 1685/6.
Mary was a fascinating person in her own right and much loved by the poets and people for her great generosity. Her portrait (cf. Fig. 2) painted c. 1710 shows a very handsome woman with long flowing hair and delicious orbs' (mammary glands) as the 18th century phrase had it. Mary and her brother John through their mother, were also heirs-at-law to John and Nicholas Bourke of Cahirmoyle, Co. Limerick and thus she was a very wealthy lady, on paper at least and had great expectations 'though at the time she made her will (1753) she was still 'entitled to a considerable sum of money' (21) from Castlemartyr and Ballinacurra, Co. Cork as well as from Cahirmoyle, Co. Limerick. After her mother's early death, her father re-married Alice Dillon by whom he had two daughters, living in 1700. (22)
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/big-houses-of-ireland/glin-castle-co.-limerick/the-four-brothers/the-parents/
And another example not in Connaught was Art O'Laoighaires grandfather , KeadaghThe original William Masters was a clerical officer of the Hollow Swords Blade Company who was involved in the sale of the tenancies in 1703. He “purchased” the Carrignacurra estate from Keadagh O’Leary who was acting on behalf of the O’Leary Merigah under-age family. William built Castlemasters House alongside the Castle and moved into it in 1723.
Godert de Ginkell was made Earl of Athlone and was given a land grant of the estates of the Earl of Limerick who was killed during the Battle of the Boyne and a partial reversal of the forteiture by Act of Parliment in favour of a Catholic EarlIn 1687, the Assembly of New York was dissolved by the king, and in 1688 Andros was appointed Governor of the consolidated Provinces of New York and New England. Dongan refused command of a regiment with the rank of major-general, retired to his estate on Staten Island, New York, but was obliged to flee for safety in the religious persecution aroused by Lesler in 1689. In 1691 he returned to England. By the death of his brother William (1698), late Governor of the Province of Munster, Ireland, whose only son, Colonel Walter, Lord Dongan, was killed at the battle of the Boyne, Dongan became Earl of Limerick. In 1702 he was recognized as successor to his brother's estates, but only on payment of claims of the purchasers from the Earl of Athlone. Dongan died poor and without direct heirs. By will, dated 1713, he provided that he be buried at an expense of not over £100, and left the residue of his estate to his niece, wife of Colonel Nugent, afterwards Marshal of France. The tribute of history to his personal charm, his integrity, and character, is outspoken and universal. His public papers give evidence of a keen mind and a sense of humour. He was a man of courage, tact, and capacity, an able diplomat, and a statesman of prudence and remarkable foresight. In spite the brief term of five years as Governor of New York Province, by virtue of the magnitude, of the enduring and far-reaching character of his achievements, he stands forth as one of the greatest constructive statesmen ever sent out by England for the government of any of her American colonial possessions.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05130a.htm
I am confused.
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Oh dear
- sorry for spreading more rumours about William. :pac:
No worries, remember that thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056206669
I don't mind William's orientation its the pretend Irishmen that get me going.
The accession of James II gave new life to Catholic aspirations. Matthew, the 7th Baron Louth, joined the Jacobite cause in 1689 and commanded an infantry regiment at the siege of Derry. He was outlawed and exiled, and died in September 1689. Thomas, his second son, who had been sent to France for his education, returned and took part in the Jacobite campaigns, and was at Derry, the Boyne, Limerick, Aughrim and again at Limerick for the surrender, after which he sailed with Sarsfield for the continent. He had been indicted and outlawed after the Battle of the Boyne, and after the war ended he was indicted for high treason committed ‘in parts beyond the sea’. He remained in the service of France for many years but returned to Louth Hall where he made a will in 1732 and died soon after. His son Matthew was a captain in the Austrian Imperial infantry.
The 8th Baron Louth, Oliver, was only twenty-one when he succeeded to the title in 1689. Like his brother, he joined the Jacobite forces and was outlawed, and was in Limerick at the surrender in 1691. He was pardoned under the Articles of Limerick. He was made secure in his estates without much trouble and intended to resume his hereditary place in the Irish House of Lords. But he was prevented from taking his seat on the grounds that he had not proved the reversal of his grandfather’s outlawry for rebellion in 1641. Eventually, the question of outlawry was resolved and he was summoned to the House of Lords. In October 1695 Lord Louth took the oath of fidelity. But he refused to take both the oath of royal supremacy over the church and a declaration against Catholic religious practices and beliefs, and was ordered to withdraw. Attitudes towards Catholics hardened from the late 1690s under the Popery Acts, and it was another hundred years before a holder of the Louth title was permitted to sit in the House of Lords.
During the period of the Penal Laws, life was made hard for landowning Catholics. Like several other Catholic landowners in county Louth, the Plunketts changed their religion in the early 1700s. Matthew, the 9th Baron Louth (1698-1754), was a minor when his father Oliver died in November 1707. Eighteen months later he was brought to England and was put under the guardianship of Matthew Aylmer, a first cousin of his grandfather, and a convert to Protestantism. Matthew, the heir to the Louth title, was a sickly child, but grew up to marry an Englishwoman, father an heir and settle in Louth Hall. His guardian, Aylmer, saw that he was educated in the Protestant religion. Aylmer unsuccessfully petitioned Queen Anne on Matthew’s behalf seeking that the minor be restored to all the family’s honours. Matthew remained a Protestant and his descendents were members of the Church of Ireland for many generations. But in the nineteenth century the family returned to the Catholic faith and Randal Percy Otway, the 13th Baron, was received into the Catholic Church on 6 December 1867.
Thomas Oliver, the 11th Baron Louth (1757-1823), had the outlawry of his great grandfather annulled, and took his seat in the House of Lords in 1798. His son, also Thomas Oliver, born in 1809, became the 12th Baron Louth. He died in 1849. After their involvement in the wars of the seventeenth century, none of the Plunketts of Tallanstown were prominent in national affairs.
http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/louth.pdf0 -
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