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Religious persecution in Ireland

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    #182
    HellsAngel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Putting it down to being persecuted for simply being Irish just smacks of self pity tbh.
    Don't feed :pac: Next he'll be on with " What about little Johnathon Ball......What about Uncle Mountbatten.......What about Birmingham " etc, etc :pac:


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    #183
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    Don't feed :pac: Next he'll be on with " What about little Johnathon Ball......What about Uncle Mountbatten.......What about Birmingham " etc, etc :pac:

    Come on folks, quoted post (or similar) is only going to result in an off topic row- If you think there is a problem with a post you have 2 options,
    1- point out the flaws in said post (using sources if possible) thus disproving/ discrediting it, or
    2- report it.

    If there is anything not clear in this PM me.


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    #184
    HellsAngel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    JustinDee wrote: »
    It was Jewish immigrants. They were not considered to be suitable to a Roman Catholic Ireland. Call it what you like but the minister who was quoted by historian Brian Girvin as saying this on party memos was not alone.
    Hence a paltry shameful number of refugees allowed in to the country.
    German POWS, including Catholics, also got hassle and refusal to stay in Ireland after WW2, it was on a program on TG4. To try and make out that those of the Jewish religion were singled out by the backwardness of the time is nonsense. I'm sure if say, Bosnian Muslims or Serbian Orthodox refugees had tried to enter the country the same ignorance would have unfortunately prevailed.


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    #185
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Has it not been suggested somewhere that Paddy Mayne was passed over for a VC and leadership of the SAS for being Irish.

    I read it somewhere.

    Anyway , an article on a campaign to rehabilitate him from the Times

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article6908948.ece

    Some incidents (such as one involving Richard Dimbleby have been proven to be false)

    http://www.sasspecialairservice.com/paddy-mayne.html


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    #186
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    CDfm wrote: »
    Has it not been suggested somewhere that Paddy Mayne was passed over for a VC and leadership of the SAS for being Irish.

    I read it somewhere.

    in this case i don't think it was because he was Irish. but it is believed that Fr Willie Doyle , who was killed in WW1 ,was passed over for a VC because he was a Jesuit.


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    #187
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    in this case i don't think it was because he was Irish. but it is believed that Fr Willie Doyle , who was killed in WW1 ,was passed over for a VC because he was a Jesuit.

    A jesuit wouldn't need the validation :D

    Any more detail on William Doyle or Mayne who was the real deal.


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    #188
    HellsAngel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    CDfm wrote: »
    Has it not been suggested somewhere that Paddy Mayne was passed over for a VC and leadership of the SAS for being Irish.

    I read it somewhere.

    Anyway , an article on a campaign to rehabilitate him from the Times

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article6908948.ece

    Some incidents (such as one involving Richard Dimbleby have been proven to be false)

    http://www.sasspecialairservice.com/paddy-mayne.html
    Paddy Mayne is said to have been passed over for a VC etc for punching a senior officer.


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    #189
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    Paddy Mayne is said to have been passed over for a VC etc for punching a senior officer.
    Well that should get him a lot of support from here :D

    A pretty silly reason during wartime .


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    #190
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Not meaning to pick on you but this type of caricature was fairly mainstream in the British press in the nineteenth century. You should read "Apes and Angels" by L Perry Curtis for the full story of how the Irish were depicted with simian features. The magazine Punch was full of offensive ape-like Irish and so also were 'history' books written for a British readership.
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    That's a disingenous reply IMO. Print publications are an excellent primary source as we all know. You can afford to be wrong once in a while, you know.

    you both realise you are referring to punch, a 19th century satirical magazine disprove my post that being Irish wasn't a reason for persecution (in the midst of a conversation about the 17th century).


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    #191
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »

    Any more detail on William Doyle or Mayne who was the real deal.
    The book 'who dares wins' (pg 34) says the reason Mayne missed out on the VC was because the medal is for individual acts of bravery whereas the incident which he was recommended for involved other people. Some of it is here http://books.google.ie/books?id=VhHPcfCSacYC&pg=PA21&dq=paddy+mayne&hl=en&ei=9Zo9TrnBCJO5hAeQ8OTRBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=paddy%20mayne&f=false


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    #192
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    enfant terrible wrote: »
    Was this a one off or has Ireland always had a problem with Jewish people.

    Jewish people themselves will tell you that incident is the only blip in an otherwise peaceful co existence between the Jews and Irish, But there has never been a large Jewish community here.
    Majority of Irish people are appalled at the situation regarding Israel/Palestine but thats not to be confused with anti-Semitism.


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    #193
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    The book 'who dares wins' (pg 34) says the reason Mayne missed out on the VC was because the medal is for individual acts of bravery whereas the incident which he was recommended for involved other people. Some of it is here http://books.google.ie/books?id=VhHPcfCSacYC&pg=PA21&dq=paddy+mayne&hl=en&ei=9Zo9TrnBCJO5hAeQ8OTRBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=paddy%20mayne&f=false

    Ah yes, the official version.

    And for those looking for details of William Doyle

    In December, 1916, he was transferred to 8th Battalion of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. He met his fellow Jesuit Father Frank Browne who was attached to the 2nd and 9th Dublins. His concern for the his men shines through his letters and diaries.
    "I found the dying lad - he was not much more- so tightly jammed into a corner of the trench that it was almost impossible to get him out. Both legs were smashed, one in two or three places, so his chances of life were small, and there were other injuries as well. What a harrowing picture that scene would have made. A splendid young soldier, married only a month they told me, lying there, pale and motionless in the mud and water with the life crushed out of him by a cruel shell. The stretcher bearers hard at work binding up as well as they may, his broken limbs; round about a group of silent Tommies looking on and wondering when will their turn come. Peace for a moment seems to have taken possession of the battlefield, not a sound save the deep boom of some far-off gun and the stifled moans of the dying boy, while as if anxious to hide the scene, nature drops her soft mantle of snow on the living and dead alike."
    He was awarded the Military Cross in January, 1917 though many believed that he deserved the Victoria Cross for his bravery under fire. He took part in the attack on Wytschaete Ridge in June,1917. Fr.Browne was transferred to the Irish Guards at the start of August which left Fr. Doyle to service four battalions by himself.
    He had a number of close calls before he was killed by a shell along with three officers on 17 August, on Frezenberg Ridge. He was recommended for the DSO at Wytschaete and the VC at Frezenberg. His biographer comments: "However the triple disqualification of being an Irishmen, a Catholic and a Jesuit, proved insuperable."

    http://freespace.virgin.net/sh.k/frwdoyle.html

    Rescuing people under fire is a very brave act so I am with the supporters.


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    #194
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »
    Ah yes, the official version.
    Go on then, what is the unofficial version?


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    #195
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Go on then, what is the unofficial version?

    Did I say there was one .

    He pulled on the Irish Jersey for Rugby and admonished his fellow officers for their simplistic attitudes towards Ireland.

    And he is still listed by the Tony O'Reilly owned Indo as a Rugby great
    2. PADDY MAYNE
    A seriously hard b****rd. Lieutenant Colonel Robert Blair 'Paddy' Mayne (DSO and Three Bars, Legion d'honneur) played six times for Ireland between 1937 and 1939.
    He also played three Tests on the 1938 Lions tour of South Africa when it was said he used to relax by "wrecking hotels and beating up dockers". That propensity for pugilism was reflected by his achievements in the boxing ring, where he became Irish universities heavyweight champion in 1936 and was only beaten on points for the British title.


    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/hard-as-nails-2497365.html

    I think it is easy to pigeon hole people.


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    #196
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you both realise you are referring to punch, a 19th century satirical magazine disprove my post that being Irish wasn't a reason for persecution (in the midst of a conversation about the 17th century).

    Fred you ignore the facts that you get wrong when they are pointed out to you and just go on the attack about something else – [what about Brian Boru and Scotland eh?, I didn’t hear back from you on that]. You seem to be surviving here on just picking at things you don’t like without supplying any reference for opinions coming from you. After years of reading bad essays I can spot the dodge. Now you are trying to change the order of the discussion and are making a bogus claim about what was being discussed.

    To put things back on track: There was no 'midst of a conversation about the 17th century' issue here. Nice try. You put a reply to the simian cartoons post and claimed that it was only peripheral yellow journalism that showed such cartoons and I replied that you were wrong in that. It became mainstream and was even to be found in history books. The simian Irish face became central to Victorian popular culture. And popular culture shapes minds. This is the point that Perry Curtis makes in his study of the subject of” Irish Apes” as he calls the cartoon depictions. Now please tell me that you understand what a cartoon is in art – it’s not something from a child’s comic book.


    The best known illustrator of the early nineteenth century George Cruickshank was one of the earlier to depict the Irish as beasts. Others followed. Here is a quote from Curtis:

    The man who did most to change the Irish stereotype in English cartoons from man to beast was John Tenniel, who was born in 1820 knighted in 1893 and died in 1914. Over a fifty year period Tenniel illustrated some of the best known publications in the Victorian period. …Tenniel was kinder with his pencil to those Irishmen who recognised the benefits of British rule, and his ape-like Fenians should be compared with the honest, sturdy, firm-jawed but still slightly prognathous features of those Irishmen who are being sworn in a special constable by John Bull to cope with the Fenian rising in “A Hint to the Loyal Irish”.


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    #197
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you both realise you are referring to punch, a 19th century satirical magazine disprove my post that being Irish wasn't a reason for persecution (in the midst of a conversation about the 17th century).
    So, somewhere between Geraldis Cambrensis portraying the Irish as ignorant savages, and the popular culture of 19th century England, there was a golden age where the English regarded the Irish as equals?

    Fascinating.


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    #198
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    So, somewhere between Geraldis Cambrensis portraying the Irish as ignorant savages, and the popular culture of 19th century England, there was a golden age where the English regarded the Irish as equals?

    Fascinating.

    Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.

    George Hook and a guest were talking about how the Irish are treated in England the other day and George said he remembered only too well the anti Irish backlash when Mountbatten was killed. To which his guest replied what backlash? Everyone talked about it, but he'd never experienced it.

    That was Hook's point, a lot of the anti Irishness is talked about, but you'll rarely fund anyone that experienced it.

    It just fits in with the Irish belief that the world is out to get them and they are the most oppressed people on earth.

    A lot of Irish people did very nicely for themselves under British rule and if someone had the background and the money they were treated as equals.


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    #199
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    I spent 16 years in london and i never experienced it quite the opposite in fact but some nationalists like to use the idea.Some paddies behaved disgracefully with a few drinks.The English it has been said have always had a sneakingly high regard for us....i know that is true.


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    #200
    stanley 2
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭stanley 2


    paddyandy wrote: »
    Was it not a very serious matter that they were driven from their homes and likelihoods and did they not fear that bloodshed was imminent.You treat the matter very lightly.They were very vulnerable and it's a story that will forever come back to haunt us.The Catholic Church which i was brought up in has a lot of guilt and a lot of blood on it's hands and there are many stories around the world with similar marks.The fILM INDUSTRY will have loads of material to draw from.The Present Pope has some answering to do.

    there a lot of blame to share around look how the isralies treat the christians and muslims in there Jewish state i think the people of limrick come out very favorably


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    #201
    stanley 2
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭stanley 2


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    I would'nt be a big fan of religion in any form and in Ireland it has been a real source of division despite the fact that there are very little differences between supposed opposite sides. The story of the Limerick Pogrom is just one sad episode representing how these differences manifest into outright bigotry in a nasty way:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Pogrom#Pogrom

    It is shocking if the jewish community actually had to fully leave the Limerick area as it was an outright victory for narrow mindedness. I believe Arthur Griffith did not cover himself in glory in relation to this either, supporting the pogrom.

    Does anyone have any other examples of this type of religious persecution in Ireland(perhaps not including 1918-1923)? Or further information on the Limerick Pogrom?
    look up the penal laws the famine forced emigration you will get a lot of information on religious persecution


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    #202
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.

    George Hook and a guest were talking about how the Irish are treated in England the other day and George said he remembered only too well the anti Irish backlash when Mountbatten was killed. To which his guest replied what backlash? Everyone talked about it, but he'd never experienced it.

    That was Hook's point, a lot of the anti Irishness is talked about, but you'll rarely fund anyone that experienced it.

    It just fits in with the Irish belief that the world is out to get them and they are the most oppressed people on earth.

    A lot of Irish people did very nicely for themselves under British rule and if someone had the background and the money they were treated as equals.

    Fred What is your problem with Irish history? Heck what is your problem with English history? You add nothing of any historic validity to any discussion but your own frustration and your personal anger at the historic record which you are unable to refute so you turn to jeers, taunts and derision at what is shown to be the record - now the latest "self pity" angle that you have adopted. If you can't refute a fact - what? - just tear it down with taunts?


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    #203
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.
    Fred, I'm usually characterised as a 'West-Brit' on Boards, so it makes a refreshing change to be lumped in with the Republican and 'oppressed Paddy' lobby for a change. But this does not change the fact that you are wrong about this, whatever exceptions you try to throw up, or however you like to spin it.


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    #204
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.
    The thread is is not 'self pity'. It is dealing with religious persecution.
    You need to introduce historic sources into your posts as without backing up your opinion your posts appear to be an attempt to stir the pot or start a row. If you can back up your opinions with relevent sources (not George hooks opinion) it would be very helpful.

    I have made this point generally already on this thread and it is ignored. If it is continuely ignored then I will have to either close the thread or ban people who ignore it. I would prefer not to do either. Note- if people have a problem with a post it should be reported.

    If this is not clear then PM me.
    moderator.


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    #205
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    German POWS, including Catholics, also got hassle and refusal to stay in Ireland after WW2, it was on a program on TG4. To try and make out that those of the Jewish religion were singled out by the backwardness of the time is nonsense. I'm sure if say, Bosnian Muslims or Serbian Orthodox refugees had tried to enter the country the same ignorance would have unfortunately prevailed.
    Nobody was singling out anyone. I gave an example of a particular sorry chapter in this country. I didn't grade it in comparison to anything as many moral relativists posting here tend to do.


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    #206
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    That was Hook's point, a lot of the anti Irishness is talked about, but you'll rarely fund anyone that experienced it.

    That makes me a rarity. :)

    I am glad it does not exist now and ,in fairness, a lot of the rugby bunch that would make up Hook's peer group would not be into it.


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    #207
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »
    Did I say there was one .

    He pulled on the Irish Jersey for Rugby and admonished his fellow officers for their simplistic attitudes towards Ireland.

    And he is still listed by the Tony O'Reilly owned Indo as a Rugby great

    I think it is easy to pigeon hole people.
    The suggestion that a link was 'official' implies an unofficial version IMO.
    But is there anything solid to back up the claim that he was passed over because he was Irish. It sounds a bit like hearsay to me.

    Maybe he missed out because he rubbed people up the wrong way? Or maybe because as the earlier linked book said, the recommendation was not technically correct.


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    #208
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Maybe he missed out because he rubbed people up the wrong way? Or maybe because as the earlier linked book said, the recommendation was not technically correct.
    That seems to stem from Wemyss claiming that he should not be awarded the VC because he wasn't working alone and the citation requires that the VC is awarded for a 'single act of courage'. In fact, the VC is awarded for a 'signal act of courage' - is it possible/likely he misunderstood the meaning of the word?


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    #209
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    The suggestion that a link was 'official' implies an unofficial version IMO.
    But is there anything solid to back up the claim that he was passed over because he was Irish. It sounds a bit like hearsay to me.

    Maybe he missed out because he rubbed people up the wrong way? Or maybe because as the earlier linked book said, the recommendation was not technically correct.

    There is a lot of innuendo surrounding Paddy Mayne which is unfortunate.

    We do know that accounts of his misbehavior are proven to be exaggerated. The story concerning Richard Dimbleby has been proven to be false by his son David. We also know that he had a habit of correcting fellow officers in the officers mess concerning their misunderstanding of the Irish political situation. This gave him a reputation for being difficult and off message.

    I am not a rugby fan, but, I do know from a friends uncle who played for Ireland that there was a long tradition in rugby to be sensitive and inclusive ( I am sure rugby fans could come up with specific example's of this when the english team played in Lansdowne Road consistantly during the troubles).Another Irish cap was Tom Crean in the 1890's.

    I am hazarding a guess that he brought this in to his personal and professional life as what was sportsmanlike behaviour and that his sports took precedence over politics. There is an old saying " tell me who your friends are and I will tell you what you are".

    He was not a politician, though, and Montgomery and King George were amongst his supporters for his VC.

    It is good that he is remembered fondly in Irish Rugby circles.

    Anyway, look at Rorke's Drift for VC's and Baron Von Richtofen for aircraft destroyed and they are easly outclassed by a guy nicknamed Paddy.

    http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/

    http://www.worldwar1.com/biocmvr.htm

    So if you take away all the innuendo what are you left with ?


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    #210
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    CDfm wrote: »
    Another Irish cap was Tom Crean.

    Note though that that was a Tom Crean, not the Tom Crean. :)


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    #211
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Note though that that was a Tom Crean, not the Tom Crean. :)

    Pedant :D

    Tom Crean VC

    I shall lower the tone by posting a wiki link and mention that he was catholic

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Crean


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