Sinn Feinn & Anti Monarchy?

Permabear · 14-04-2011 3:49pm

This post has been deleted.

mgmt · 14-04-2011 3:54pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Can you provide a source for that quote out of curiosity? I've seen it before, but I've never seen a legitimate source for it. Bearing in mind, that in July 1940 - Germany's most serious attacks on humanity were yet to come.

Hmm is this the real quote? Dated November 20th, 1914 by the German Imperial Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs to Sir Roger Casement.

If in the course of this war the fortune of arms should ever bring German troops to the coasts of Ireland, they would land there, not as an army of invaders coming to rob or destroy, but as the fighting forces of a government inspired only by good will toward a land and a people for whom Germany only wishes national prosperity and national freedom.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rAJhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xmMNAAAAIBAJ&dq=if%20german%20forces%20should%20land%20in%20ireland%20they%20will%20land%20as%20friends%20and%20liberators%20of%20the%20irish%20people&pg=1091%2C3002874

danbohan · 14-04-2011 4:01pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm under no illusions that a Nazi-controlled Ireland, such as the IRA was openly inviting at the time, would have worked out well for the people of this island, north or south.

i doubt even the most hardened IRA supporter would disagree with you on that .

later12 · 14-04-2011 4:07pm

mgmt wrote: »

Hmm is this the real quote? Dated November 20th, 1914 by the German Imperial Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs to Sir Roger Casement.

1914?

Cú Giobach · 14-04-2011 4:08pm

Denerick wrote: »

We are pretty indistinguishable, maybe with the exception of our accents and our partiality to traditional music in our childhood.

Indistinguishable from who, The English, Scots, Welsh or "Northern-Ulster-Scots-Irish" all of whom distinguish themselves from each other and are proud of their individual cultures.
Have you actually spent time in Britain?

The diversity of people on these islands is a great thing and it's a pleasure to travel around them and experience the differences between the landscapes and people, what on earth does it serve to ignore the differences and try to pretend we are one homogeneous group when this diversity is appreciated by so many?

I guess you would never work for the English, Welsh, Scottish, Manx, NI or Irish tourist boards.

Mayo Exile · 14-04-2011 4:10pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The British Army's campaign of retaliation after the Indian Rebellion of 1857 was a tad unpleasant wouldn't you think? Interesting article from The Guardian in August 2007.

Zubeneschamali · 14-04-2011 4:24pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The reality of the matter is, the IRA were in a war against Britain.

Don't forget that they were at war with us in the Republic, too. Dev hanged more of them than the Brits did during the Emergency.

later12 · 14-04-2011 4:40pm

Mayo Exile wrote: »

The British Army's campaign of retaliation after the Indian Rebellion of 1857 was a tad unpleasant wouldn't you think? Interesting article from

Ah yes, 1857, who doesn't remember that. It started on a Thursday. Queen Victoria parked her fat shadow over Ireland and war in the Crimea had just ended. Yes, the Great Great grand-daughter of that Queen should most certainly apologize forthwith!

Isn't it funny how nationalists always claim to be republicans, yet cling so tenaciously to the Hereditary principle when it suits them.

getz · 14-04-2011 4:48pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Don't forget that they were at war with us in the Republic, too. Dev hanged more of them than the Brits did during the Emergency.

to many with a anti british hatred that dont count,or the 2000 killed by terrorist acts,most of them women children,irish and other nationalities,[ indiscriminate killings] to some on these boards they like to think they are heroes,

Cú Giobach · 14-04-2011 4:51pm

I want to add something to the side topic of "culture" in this thread.

The problems between different peoples are not caused by their differences, but by the inability to appreciate, understand or even see these differences.
The people who are saying "we are all culturally the same" are closer in mindset to the people who are the cause of problems between the different cultures on these islands than they actually realise.

petroltimer · 14-04-2011 4:55pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Indistinguishable from who, The English, Scots, Welsh or "Northern-Ulster-Scots-Irish" all of whom distinguish themselves from each other and are proud of their individual cultures.
Have you actually spent time in Britain?

The diversity of people on these islands is a great thing and it's a pleasure to travel around them and experience the differences between the landscapes and people, what on earth does it serve to ignore the differences and try to pretend we are one homogeneous group when this diversity is appreciated by so many?

I guess you would never work for the English, Welsh, Scottish, Manx, NI or Irish tourist boards.

If we are so different, why is it then the pro “keep Irish as a compulsory subject” are always banging out the same line that if we drop Irish we would be undistinguishable to the British in eyes of foreigners?

On a side note to any kids wasting their time reading this, I refused to do Irish when I went to secondary school, thankfully backed up by my progressive parents the school let it be, the only negative is the only two universities I could apply to were DCU & UL, but well worth it 5 years free of that crap and went to UL got a degree.

maccored · 14-04-2011 4:59pm

petroltimer wrote: »

If we are so different, why is it then the pro “keep Irish as a compulsory subject” are always banging out the same line that if we drop Irish we would be undistinguishable to the British in eyes of foreigners?

what? I always thought it was because we'd be losing a big chunk of our culture, and not 'we would be undistinguishable to the British in eyes of foreigners".

still, whats the point of that ikky irish language anyway. (i was being sarcastic there)

Denerick · 14-04-2011 4:59pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I want to add something to the side topic of "culture" in this thread.

The problems between different peoples are not caused by their differences, but by the inability to appreciate, understand or even see these differences.
The people who are saying "we are all culturally the same" are closer in mindset to the people who are the cause of problems between the different cultures on these islands than they actually realise.

Explain how our cultures are different please. This cultural differentiation is a myth propounded by certain ideologues and tourist boards in order to exacerbate the myth of cultural difference. I've spent some time in southern England and it is my experience that daft women over there talk about the same kinds of celebrity nonsense (And the same celebrities) as daft women over here. The daft men go on about their English football teams over there as much as they do here. Don't fool yourself, most of our media is UK/US based, the manufactured Gaelic culture of the early years of the Irish State was a myth, like most other cultural myths and traditions on this island.

karma_ · 14-04-2011 5:06pm

Denerick wrote: »

Explain how our cultures are different please. This cultural differentiation is a myth propounded by certain ideologues and tourist boards in order to exacerbate the myth of cultural difference. I've spent some time in southern England and it is my experience that daft women over there talk about the same kinds of celebrity nonsense (And the same celebrities) as daft women over here. The daft men go on about their English football teams over there as much as they do here. Don't fool yourself, most of our media is UK/US based, the manufactured Gaelic culture of the early years of the Irish State was a myth, like most other cultural myths and traditions on this island.

Thought I'd wandered into the conspiracy forum there for a second.

petroltimer · 14-04-2011 5:07pm

maccored wrote: »

what? I always thought it was because we'd be losing a big chunk of our culture, and not 'we would be undistinguishable to the British in eyes of foreigners".

still, whats the point of that ikky irish language anyway. (i was being sarcastic there)

ikky good one,, well it was a calculated decision see i'm simply not an intellectual heavy weight like so many of the contributers here, it freed up an extra hour a day for me to study the books..

but i was smart enough to know there was never any value in learning a useless outdated defeated language, they had a latin class as well, I did not attend.

Denerick · 14-04-2011 5:10pm

karma_ wrote: »

Thought I'd wandered into the conspiracy forum there for a second.

Tradition, like cultural heritage, is often an invention in order to make nations cohesive, especially nations who are particularly uneasy with their lack of indigeneous heritage. The Irish language effectively died out in the 1850s yet we still delude ourselves that this is one pillar of Irish identity that seperates us from the Brits.

Mayo Exile · 14-04-2011 5:21pm

later10 wrote: »

Ah yes, 1857, who doesn't remember that. It started on a Thursday. Queen Victoria parked her fat shadow over Ireland and war in the Crimea had just ended. Yes, the Great Great grand-daughter of that Queen should most certainly apologize forthwith!

Isn't it funny how nationalists always claim to be republicans, yet cling so tenaciously to the Hereditary principle when it suits them.

:rolleyes:

People make light of certain historical events when it suits them too it seems.

BTW, I've no problem with QE2 nipping over for a visit next month.

karma_ · 14-04-2011 5:22pm

Denerick wrote: »

Tradition, like cultural heritage, is often an invention in order to make nations cohesive, especially nations who are particularly uneasy with their lack of indigeneous heritage. The Irish language effectively died out in the 1850s yet we still delude ourselves that this is one pillar of Irish identity that seperates us from the Brits.

Delude ourselves because we have an indigenous language that is worth preserving?

The argument you make could be made of almost any European nation today. What's so wrong with cherishing a separate identity? What exactly do you find so outrageous and embarrassing about that?

I'm from the North, I have always considered myself Irish. I like British people immensely, but there are definitely cultural differences. I don;t know why we cannot celebrate the fact there are differences while at the same time recognising we are all in fact European.

petroltimer · 14-04-2011 5:31pm

karma_ wrote: »

Delude ourselves because we have an indigenous language that is worth preserving?

The argument you make could be made of almost any European nation today. What's so wrong with cherishing a separate identity? What exactly do you find so outrageous and embarrassing about that?

I'm from the North, I have always considered myself Irish. I like British people immensely, but there are definitely cultural differences. I don;t know why we cannot celebrate the fact there are differences while at the same time recognising we are all in fact European.

have your own identity just don't shove it the necks of those of us that don't care, this seems to be no better than religious people trying to shove religion on us. I've some respect for the GAA they are a voluntary organisation raise their own money, they lobby the government for more but i suppose all organisations do that but at least i don't have to pay a tax for it, unlike the tv tax\licence which helps pay for a silly irish radio and tv station,, the people that like to use this service should pay for it themselves.

LordSutch · 14-04-2011 5:53pm

Crosáidí wrote: »

You could be describing the irish and the french there

The Irish & the British are almost indistinguishable, many Irish people are also British, & may British people are Irish too, we are part of the same group of islands, and we are totally connected (even if many Irish people pretend that we have no connection) or even pretend that we have more in common with France than with our neighbouring island

later12 · 14-04-2011 5:55pm

Mayo Exile wrote: »

:rolleyes:

People make light of certain historical events when it suits them too it seems.

Which part of my post did you take issue with, the fact that Queen Victoria was horizontally challenged? I don't make light of war, but I do feel a little bit amused by those who feel that they need an apology for something that has never affected them... especially if that which has never affected them is foreign policy in the reign of Victoria.

And all this from republicans who do not believe in the hereditary principle.

karma_ · 14-04-2011 5:59pm

petroltimer wrote: »

have your own identity just don't shove it the necks of those of us that don't care, this seems to be no better than religious people trying to shove religion on us. I've some respect for the GAA they are a voluntary organisation raise their own money, they lobby the government for more but i suppose all organisations do that but at least i don't have to pay a tax for it, unlike the tv tax\licence which helps pay for a silly irish radio and tv station,, the people that like to use this service should pay for it themselves.

I'm shoving nothing down your throat, however I find myself having something I didn't shove down anyones throat shoved back in my face.

LordSutch wrote: »

The Irish & the British are almost indistinguishable, many Irish people are also British, & may British people are Irish too, we are part of the same group of islands, and we are totally connected (even if many Irish people pretend that we have no connection) or even pretend that we have more in common with France than with our neighbouring island

Why did you find it necessary to entitle your little bit of revisionism with GSTQ?

If you identify yourself as British, I have no problem whatsoever with that, your entitled to do so, but please don;t tell me what I should be identifying with.

LordSutch · 14-04-2011 6:05pm

karma_ wrote: »

Why did you find it necessary to entitle your little bit of revisionism with GSTQ?

If you identify yourself as British, I have no problem whatsoever with that, your entitled to do so, but please don;t tell me what I should be identifying with.

I am an Irish Unionist.

karma_ · 14-04-2011 6:12pm

LordSutch wrote: »

I am an Irish Unionist.

We know.

Permabear · 14-04-2011 6:14pm

This post has been deleted.

Mayo Exile · 14-04-2011 6:14pm

later10 wrote: »

I don't make light of war

Grand.

But don't you think that this:

Ah yes, 1857, who doesn't remember that. It started on a Thursday. Queen Victoria parked her fat shadow

is a bit flippant considering I did post a link to a related article? Did you have a look at it?

And all this from republicans who do not believe in the heriditary principle

I didn't say this anywhere. If countries want a constitutional monarchy as their form of government, that's fine by me.

My name is URL · 14-04-2011 6:47pm

LordSutch wrote: »

The Irish & the British are almost indistinguishable, many Irish people are also British, & may British people are Irish too, we are part of the same group of islands, and we are totally connected (even if many Irish people pretend that we have no connection) or even pretend that we have more in common with France than with our neighbouring island

So what? Same could be said about Canadians and Americans, Australia and New Zealand, or any other pairing of nations with a close proximity and similar customs to one another.

Why is it such a sticking point here with some people.. that they either need to continuously point out how alike we are, or deny that any likeness exists?

It's quite pathetic really.

Cú Giobach · 14-04-2011 6:48pm

Denerick wrote: »

Explain how our cultures are different please. This cultural differentiation is a myth propounded by certain ideologues and tourist boards in order to exacerbate the myth of cultural difference. I've spent some time in southern England and it is my experience that daft women over there talk about the same kinds of celebrity nonsense (And the same celebrities) as daft women over here. The daft men go on about their English football teams over there as much as they do here. Don't fool yourself, most of our media is UK/US based, the manufactured Gaelic culture of the early years of the Irish State was a myth, like most other cultural myths and traditions on this island.

Do I really have to sit here and type things like,
Hogmanay-The 12th of July-Guy Fawkes day-St Patricks day
Hurling-Cricket
Bitter, Light ale-(Proper well poured) Stout
Irish-Welsh......Hiberno English-Wenglish (what the Welsh call English with Welsh phonology and grammar).
Tudor buildings....The small cottages of Irish villages.
Alfred the Great-William Wallace-Owain Glyndwr-Brian Boru.

I find it amusing that you dismiss things that you and others call "invented culture" from the 19th century as differences even though they have become part of our modern society, but cite things as recent as media as similarities.

Why do you ignore and what is your agenda by ignoring the differences between the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh?

LordSutch wrote: »

The Irish & the British are almost indistinguishable, many Irish people are also British, & may British people are Irish too, we are part of the same group of islands, and we are totally connected (even if many Irish people pretend that we have no connection) or even pretend that we have more in common with France than with our neighbouring island

If you can't distinguish the differences between people from Kent and Inverness or Dublin and Yorkshire this is to do with your perception.
Why do you ignore the differences between the peoples of these islands, even though the acceptance, understanding and appreciation of the differences is something that would bring all the people closer together, and the ignoring of these differences is what has caused quite serious problems in the past (and present in some places).
Diversity is something to be enjoyed not ignored.

Denerick · 14-04-2011 6:52pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Do I really have to sit here and type things like,
Hogmanay-The 12th of July-Guy Fawkes day-St Patricks day
Hurling-Cricket
Bitter, Light ale-(Proper well poured) Stout
Irish-Welsh......Hiberno Irish-Wenglish (what the Welsh call English with Welsh phonology and grammar).
Tudor buildings....The small cottages of Irish villages.
Alfred the Great-William Wallace-Owain Glyndwr-Brian Boru.

I find it amusing that you dismiss things that you and others call "invented culture" from the 19th century as differences even though they have become part of our modern society, but cite things as recent as media as similarities.

Why do you ignore and what is your agenda by ignoring the differences between the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh?

If you can't distinguish the differences between people from Kent and Inverness or Dublin and Yorkshire this is to do with your perception.
Why do you ignore the differences between the peoples of these islands, even though the acceptance, understanding and appreciation of the differences is something that would bring all the people closer together, and the ignoring of these differences is what has caused quite serious problems in the past (and present in some places).
Diversity is something to be enjoyed not ignored.

I don't believe whatever minor differences do exist constitute a cultural shift. You can be born in Edinburgh for example and easily 'assimilate' into the London culture, despite London being one of the great cosmopolitan cultures of our age.

I take on board what you are saying about enjoying diffences in culture but when you compare the Irish and the Italians and the Irish and the Brits, what do you get?

Mayo Exile · 14-04-2011 6:53pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes.

But it's legitimate to argue that more recent unpleasant things have more of an actual bearing on people's actual lives than the events of centuries ago.

Its natural to assume that. But would you agree that the mere passage of time should not lessen the gravity of an historical event? Borrowing from Edmund Burke: "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it".

In the case of an event such as Bloody Sunday, an apology is meaningful, since many of the family and friends of the victims are still alive.

Yes. David Cameron actually made a good statement on this matter.

But I see no point in demanding that the queen apologize for something like the Penal Laws. And the idea that a British monarch should apologise for Cromwell is just ironic.

I thinks its more the actions of Cromwell that people are bothered about as opposed to a monarch not being head of government in England at that time. As to apologies and if/when they should be offered or not, no one will ever agree on where you draw the line on this.

Sinn Feinn & Anti Monarchy?

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