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    #902
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    On this very thread!....we have people saying the Luas shouldn't be put in ahead of the people. :cool:

    Obviously fans of the Tallaght 1970s model of "planning".

    Bill, could you point out on the thread where you have seen this. There are 60 pages, so it would help if you could guide us to the relevant page.

    If, perchance, your comments are related to my recent comments on this thread, here's my reply:

    People in the high density suburbs of the Dublin Metopolitan Area, like Harold's Cross, Terenure, Finglas, Cabra, etc. have been paying taxes for decades. If money is to be directed towards public transport, shouldn't the money paid in taxes over those years be put towards enabling people in those areas to get rapidly to important centres of work, like the city centre, and to get rapidly home.

    They still can't. Why? Answer: because the government focus was on developing lines to low density areas, like Cherrywood and Citywest - areas which might (have) become high density areas.

    What's wrong with advocating LUAS lines between the city centre and areas which we already know are high density, as a priority, and then building outwards at a later stage, if need be.

    As we have seen, the government focus on lower density areas hasn't really been a success.

    Much better, I think, to follow the tried and trusted formula from other European cities, to cover the higher density areas first, and then extend to other areas. As need be.

    Munich, in my opinion, would be a good example. (But the list of European cities which tried this pattern of development is indeed long).


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    #903
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Bill, could you point out on the thread where you have seen this. There are 60 pages, so it would help if you could guide us to the relevant page.

    I'm going from memory - and have no intention of ploughing through 60 pages!

    The extension from Sandyford to Carrickmines is a badly needed and heavily used extension. The extra bit from there to Cherrywood is pretty sparsely used; but it follows the old Harcourt St line. Since the Harcourt St line was closed we have the usual suspects whine about what a bad decision that was even though it passed through empty countryside as soon as it left Dundrum.

    I utterly reject any suggestion that areas a short bus hop or bicycle ride (or even a brisk walk) from the City Centre like Rathmines should have priority over huge new distant suburbs like Sandyford; the engines of what remains of the Irish economy.

    I'd imagine Citywest qualifies on similar grounds.


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    #904
    Seamonster
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Seamonster


    As far as I can remember the Citywest extension was only built for one reason - Jim Mansfield, his Fianna Fail buddies and his massive wallet. At the time he had finished building his conference centre (Without planning permission - he normally builds first then pays backhanders) but the conference centre couldn't get a proper license because it wasn't on a urban or national transport network. So, Big Jim phoned the boys in the Dail, gave them a dirty big pay-off and Fianna Fail and Big Jim covered the cost of rolling out the Luas line to his centre.

    "The value of his land bank in Kildare will be inflated once the Luas extension links Citywest to Tallaght" taken from....

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7034837.ece


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    #905
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Bill, could you point out on the thread where you have seen this. There are 60 pages, so it would help if you could guide us to the relevant page.

    If, perchance, your comments are related to my recent comments on this thread, here's my reply:

    People in the high density suburbs of the Dublin Metopolitan Area, like Harold's Cross, Terenure, Finglas, Cabra, etc. have been paying taxes for decades. If money is to be directed towards public transport, shouldn't the money paid in taxes over those years be put towards enabling people in those areas to get rapidly to important centres of work, like the city centre, and to get rapidly home.

    They still can't. Why? Answer: because the government focus was on developing lines to low density areas, like Cherrywood and Citywest - areas which might (have) become high density areas.

    What's wrong with advocating LUAS lines between the city centre and areas which we already know are high density, as a priority, and then building outwards at a later stage, if need be.

    As we have seen, the government focus on lower density areas hasn't really been a success.

    Much better, I think, to follow the tried and trusted formula from other European cities, to cover the higher density areas first, and then extend to other areas. As need be.

    Munich, in my opinion, would be a good example. (But the list of European cities which tried this pattern of development is indeed long).

    +1, Dublin has to be the most backward city of this size in Europe. No surprise though, given the bog boots mindset of the outgoing administration.


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    #906
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    No surprise though, given the bog boots mindset of the outgoing administration.

    Since 1960 the Taoiseachs in charge were Lemass Lynch Cosgrave Lynch Haughey Fitzgerald Haughey Reynolds Bruton Ahern Cowen.

    For well over 35 years of the last 50 the Taoiseach of the day was a Dub representing a Dublin constituency. Consider it a failure of Dublin based leadership :D


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    #907
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Since 1960 the Taoiseachs in charge were Lemass Lynch Cosgrave Lynch Haughey Fitzgerald Haughey Reynolds Bruton Ahern Cowen.

    For well over 35 years of the last 50 the Taoiseach of the day was a Dub representing a Dublin constituency. Consider it a failure of Dublin based leadership :D

    Oh I agree and that's not my argument, the Dubs v rural argument.

    My argument is the whole FF movement is beholden to a rural core and anytime its in power then Dublin will, by default, suffer.

    Its not the same for FG who are slightly more urban and usually require the very urban Labour party as governing partners.

    Watch and see what happens to Dublin in the years ahead - the Metro and Dart tunnels will actually start because the govt is more representitive or the urban voter!


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    #908
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    The draft version of 2030 Vision, the Transport strategy for the Greater Dublin Area for 2011 to 2030 is now online and public consultations are open.

    Here's the public transport chapter. As expected, Transport 21 projects - Metro North and West, and Dart Undergound/Dart extensions, Lucan Luas, Green line extension to Bray - form the core of the strategy.

    There are some new additions including:

    a Luas line from Tallaght to city centre (Stephens Green suggested) via Kimmage - this was a Metro line in the 2001 Platform for Change strategy;

    extending Metro North tunnel to Ranelagh and upgrading Green line to Metro - allowing Swords to Bray and Tallaght to Dundrum/Cherrywood (MW-MN) metro services

    extending Lucan Luas from Trinity College to Poolbeg and running Tallaght-Kimmage-SSG Luas to Broombridge via BXD;

    three- or four-tracking of Balbriggan to Connolly section of Dart.

    Bus Rapid Transit lines on Malahide, Stillorgan, Lucan and Navan roads, examining five other QBCs for upgrade to BRT and new northern and southern QBC/BRT routes.

    BRT may be considered as alternatives to Lucan and Tallaght-SSG Luas lines.

    Here's the link for Chapter 10 Public Transport - there's a schematic map of the proposed Dublin rail network for 2030 on page 20.

    http://www.2030vision.ie/downloads/files/en/strategy_report/Chap%2010%20Public%20Transport.pdf

    Another interesting aspect of 2030 document is some of the other lines and extensions considered but long-fingered for now. However, some or all MAY come back on the agenda before 2030 if demand on these routes necessiates and economic appraisals and conditions are positive.

    These include:

    Extending Metro West from Dardistown to Dart line near Howth and Tallaght to Dundrum;

    Rathfarnham to city centre Luas;

    extending Luas BXD through Finglas to Meakstown on Metro West;

    extending Lucan Luas west to Adamstown;

    extending Red Luas from Citywest to Greenogue (Rathcoole) and from The Point across Liffey to Poolbeg;

    Luas feeder station from Sallins train station to Naas town centre.

    Contained in Chapter 6 Strategy Options, link here:

    http://www.2030vision.ie/downloads/files/en/strategy_report/Chap%206%20Strategy%20options.pdf

    And here are links to the entire strategy and executive summary:

    http://www.2030vision.ie/?p=download_strategy&l=en

    http://www.2030vision.ie/downloads/files/en/strategy_report/Executive%20Summary.pdf


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    #909
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,860 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    My argument is the whole FF movement is beholden to a rural core

    The only thing FF has been beholden to is brown envelopes.


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    #910
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    My argument is the whole FF movement is beholden to a rural core and anytime its in power then Dublin will, by default, suffer.!
    The worst suffering was again self inflicted by de dear Dubs. The likes of Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke and their associates rezoned like mad and spread Dublin out to an unsustainable extent. It wasn't the country FFers who were the worst offenders in that respect.

    I generally compare Dublin to Munich for convenience ...not because it is a patch on Munich in any way. Munich ( City) has 1.3m people packed into an area of 11 x 11 miles. Dublin is a good few times larger . There is an extensive greater Munich rail network too bringing people in and out of the city.

    Unsurprisingly the public transport in Munich is simply unreal.


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    #911
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    The draft version of 2030 Vision, the Transport strategy for the Greater Dublin Area for 2011 to 2030 is now online and public consultations are open.

    There is already a thread on this in Commuting & Transport. Perhaps some of the mods could link that thread onto the Infastructure forum and we can keep all the discussion on this on the one thread.


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    #912
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The worst suffering was again self inflicted by de dear Dubs. The likes of Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke and their associates rezoned like mad and spread Dublin out to an unsustainable extent. It wasn't the country FFers who were the worst offenders in that respect.

    I generally compare Dublin to Munich for convenience ...not because it is a patch on Munich in any way. Munich ( City) has 1.3m people packed into an area of 11 x 11 miles. Dublin is a good few times larger . There is an extensive greater Munich rail network too bringing people in and out of the city.

    Unsurprisingly the public transport in Munich is simply unreal.

    Munich has 1.3 million in 310 square kilometres.
    Dublin city has 0.5 million in 115 square kilometres.

    Dublin city is quite dense, the sprawlis in the surrounding commuter towns.


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    #913
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Munich has 1.3 million in 310 square kilometres.
    Dublin city has 0.5 million in 115 square kilometres.

    Dublin city is quite dense, the sprawlis in the surrounding commuter towns.
    All the more reason Dublin should be focusing on urban regeneration and building up and inhabiting areas in the city centre rather than pushing out in urban sprawl


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    #914
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Ah yeah the Ray Burkes etc.. Dubs sucked into the FF vortex. As if they give a ****e about this city outside of their own property empires.

    Oh I see we have another glossy "vision"-type brochure to digest, oh goody. Metro West is still the most retarded notion I've ever heard of, you can polish that turd all ya like.

    Not even Berlin or London's orbitals are so far out. And only huuuuuge cities even need orbitals at all. There I just saved us millions by trimming some delusion from the transport budget.

    Lets just forget those hairbrained celtic tiger projects and focus on the city tunnels. An 8 year old could tell you that is the priority, so much so that what comes after is almost an unknown, as we can't really predict their impact on the city.


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    #915
    Telchak
    Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭Telchak


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Munich has 1.3 million in 310 square kilometres.
    Dublin city has 0.5 million in 115 square kilometres.

    Dublin city is quite dense, the sprawlis in the surrounding commuter towns.

    You're still not really comparing like for like there. 'Dublin city' is just an administrative area that covers the city centre, but just a pick-and-mix of suburbs. You can't just ignore areas of South Dublin, Fingal, and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown that are still part of the urban area.

    Urban Dublin has a population of around 1.3million with a density off 2,800/km2.

    Urban Munich has a population of 1.8million with a density off 3,600/km2.

    That comes out at both covering a similar enough area, between 450 and 500 square kilometres.


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    #916
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Munich has 1.3 million in 310 square kilometres.
    Dublin city has 0.5 million in 115 square kilometres.

    Sorry, had a wrong source earlier , thanks guys.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchen

    Munich City has 1.3m people in 310km sq.

    Around Munich are the Kreis ( county ) areas like Dachau and Freising etc. Together The City and the 5 Kreiser girdling it take up 3000km square served by the S Bahn and U Bahn (and a few Intercity and long commuter route trains here and there). A Kreis is the size of a Fingal or so size county.

    Munich ( Rural) Data. Sort of like a thin Fingal wrapped around Munich East, pop 400k
    Dachau Northwest ( pop 140k )
    Freising Northeast ( pop 170k)
    Furstenfeldbruck Southwest (pop 200k)
    Starnberg South (pop 130k)

    (That lot is 1.1m people in 2700km sq excepting the city)

    you could add Erding and Ebersberg if pushed, another 1300km square making the area 4300km square even though only the west of those 2 Kreis areas is in the Munich S Bahn zone I think. 4300km square is about the size of EAST GALWAY Only and is in fact the exact size of County Tipperary

    The S Bahns could crudely be said to the serve the 1.3m people in all of those Kreis areas and the U Bahn the City itself bar the east west centre corridor of the S Bahn.

    The whole lot of the Greater City + Kreis areas with S Bahn is around 2.7m people in an area of 4300km sq with 1.3m in the 310km sq core.

    Munich nearly has a larger TRAM network ( never mind U and S Bahn) than Dublin has of all classes of rail , see this stat attack on the tram and u bahn only

    http://www.mvg-mobil.de/ueberuns/images/mvg_in_figures_s.pdf


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    #917
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    On this very thread!....we have people saying the Luas shouldn't be put in ahead of the people. :cool:

    Obviously fans of the Tallaght 1970s model of "planning".

    When you are trying to fix public transport in a city like Dublin, you highlight the pinch points first. Address them and then move on. You do not blindly follow a development boom while abandoning well established areas to lousy public transport. Your comparison to Tallaght is way off the mark. Tallaght was not a "developer" project. It was a social housing project just like much of Clondalkin and Blanchardstown. They followed the previous projects nearer the city in areas such as Cabra, Drimnagh and Crumlin. They were done out of necessity, not profit and at a time when the country was flat broke and had no way of providing additional facilities such as transport. Its inaccurate to hold Tallaght up as an example during a time of unprecedented wealth in this country. (1998 - 2007)

    I'm all for developing transport networks in tandem with housing development, but not when half the city is buckling under crap public transport. Its not either/or, it should be both. Thats why DU is so central to Dublins public transport because it addresses both existing communities and new ones. Sensible planning would have seen it built and planning along its route supporting the money mad developers. At least post boom we would have had a well served and populated corridor instead of trams through fields that are hardly a legacy of years of wealth.


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    #918
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Sorry, had a wrong source earlier , thanks guys.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchen

    Munich City has 1.3m people in 310km sq.

    Around Munich are the Kreis ( county ) areas like Dachau and Freising etc. Together The City and the 5 Kreiser girdling it take up 3000km square served by the S Bahn and U Bahn (and a few Intercity and long commuter route trains here and there). A Kreis is the size of a Fingal or so size county.

    Munich ( Rural) Data. Sort of like a thin Fingal wrapped around Munich East, pop 400k
    Dachau Northwest ( pop 140k )
    Freising Northeast ( pop 170k)
    Furstenfeldbruck Southwest (pop 200k)
    Starnberg South (pop 130k)

    (That lot is 1.1m people in 2700km sq excepting the city)

    you could add Erding and Ebersberg if pushed, another 1300km square making the area 4300km square even though only the west of those 2 Kreis areas is in the Munich S Bahn zone I think. 4300km square is about the size of EAST GALWAY Only and is in fact the exact size of County Tipperary

    The S Bahns could crudely be said to the serve the 1.3m people in all of those Kreis areas and the U Bahn the City itself bar the east west centre corridor of the S Bahn.

    The whole lot of the Greater City + Kreis areas with S Bahn is around 2.7m people in an area of 4300km sq with 1.3m in the 310km sq core.

    Munich nearly has a larger TRAM network ( never mind U and S Bahn) than Dublin has of all classes of rail , see this stat attack on the tram and u bahn only

    http://www.mvg-mobil.de/ueberuns/images/mvg_in_figures_s.pdf

    I was in Dachau in December and noticed what they have a local bus network that provides both for local transport and feeds into the rail station. This is for a population that is larger than Swords.

    Yet people seem to want to ignore this solution for Swords which is only 6km from a DART station. Putting this into play along with the required upgrades to the Northern line would convenience more commuters, more quickly and with plenty of change for other transport initiatives around the city.


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    #919
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    I was in Dachau in December....

    That as an argument against Metro North only stacks up if Swords was the only area served, it's not. So it's a nonsence argument.

    What else is wrong with the argument? Dachau having two S-bahn stations maybe? Is your hate of Metro North so blinding you, or did you leave out those key facts for a good reason?

    What else is there? That 6km to the Dart is well over 1/3 of the distance to the city centre and there is no large road between Swords and a Dart station to take buses? Or that the NTA wants to look at three or four tracking the Northren line even with Metro North? Or that Fingal is set to take a bulk of Dublin's growth in the mid to long term?


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    #920
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    monument wrote: »
    That as an argument against Metro North only stacks up if Swords was the only area served, it's not. So it's a nonsence argument.

    What else is wrong with the argument? Dachau having two S-bahn stations maybe? Is your hate of Metro North so blinding you, or did you leave out those key facts for a good reason?

    What else is there? That 6km to the Dart is well over 1/3 of the distance to the city centre and there is no large road between Swords and a Dart station to take buses? Or that the NTA wants to look at three or four tracking the Northren line even with Metro North? Or that Fingal is set to take a bulk of Dublin's growth in the mid to long term?

    Build the roads! Insignificant money in terms of MN costs. Not only that it provides real, immediate and flexible transport solution for the Swords area at the right price. The 3 or 4 tracking is on the cards and will have ample capacity for the Malahide/Swords catchement area. Again at a fraction of MN costs. A modern, efficient, effective solution for the area.

    Two Stations? no problem! Swords is almost equidistant from both Malahide and Donabate stations. Feed into both of them. You also conveniently forget that Dachau is also has a substantially bigger population then the Swords/Malahide area.

    Swords is the only major population area served. Do we need to reopen the population density arguement - that only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring? What's the most efficient way of serving these areas? Mr. Bus of course. Some areas might be served by surface light rail.


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    #921
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    4 tracking from c.Connolly - Malahide would be expensive and not trivial BrianD , absent 4 tracking an airport spur is not feasible!!


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    #922
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    BrianD wrote: »
    Swords is the only major population area served. Do we need to reopen the population density arguement - that only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring? What's the most efficient way of serving these areas? Mr. Bus of course. Some areas might be served by surface light rail.

    Inside the M50 Dublin's population density is comparable to plenty of other continental European cities of its size. The sprawl is elsewhere, and your density argument just is not applicable.

    The expensive part of Metro North is tunnelling through the densest part of the city, and under the airport. This will build a public transport backbone for other modes to feed into.


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    #923
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    Build the roads! Insignificant money in terms of MN costs. Not only that it provides real, immediate and flexible transport solution for the Swords area at the right price. The 3 or 4 tracking is on the cards and will have ample capacity for the Malahide/Swords catchement area. Again at a fraction of MN costs. A modern, efficient, effective solution for the area.

    Two Stations? no problem! Swords is almost equidistant from both Malahide and Donabate stations. Feed into both of them.

    Your suggestion is pie in the sky.

    It's not immediate and building new roads for buses is not flexible. As I already said 3 or 4 tracking is on the cards anyway with Metro North -- you're failing to understand this, the city needs both, not one or the other.

    It's around 1-2km, or a little more, from most places in Dachau to the train stations. Under 2.5km gets you from almost ever where in the town to the main train station with U-Bahn services, or you can go to the secondary station and switch trains. These are walking and cycling distances to stations.

    Compared that to Swords and it's nearly 7km to the Northern line from parts of Swords. The large bulk of housing is about 5km away from a train station. That's all in the wrong direction -- 5-7km towards the city brings you around or inside the M50. From nearest houses at Estuary Roundabout to Donabate it's nearly 6km in the wrong direction and on heavily congested or tiny roads! The roads don't seem to be worth it.

    BrianD wrote: »
    You also conveniently forget that Dachau is also has a substantially bigger population then the Swords/Malahide area.

    No, I did not. You were the one bringing up a flawed example, not me. Different places have massively different factors and, while there is merit in looking at international examples, just because somewhere else does X does not mean we should not do Y.

    What else are you forgetting? That this is Munich's overall rail map?

    800px-VerkehrsnetzMuenchen2008.png

    Munich when viewed overall is not a great example against rail.

    BrianD wrote: »
    Swords is the only major population area served. Do we need to reopen the population density arguement - that only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring? What's the most efficient way of serving these areas? Mr. Bus of course. Some areas might be served by surface light rail.

    Forgetting that there is no room for proper bus lanes are you?

    Swords is not the only major population area served. The areas in and around Ballymun (from the Northwood area to Hampton Wood, to Ballymun etc) has a very large population, and Drumcondra / Glasnevin / Phibsborough and the North Circular Road area has a massive population. Drumcondra has a surprising amount of new development, most of it can be only seen on side roads.

    There's greater density inside the M50 than outside -- see these maps. This has all been mentioned before.

    Here's some Google Views since you don't seem to trust anything that has been said about density, none of these look like two story houses...

    - Northwood -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 and 7

    - Hampton Wood and the St Margarets Rd area -- 1, 2 etc

    - Balbutcher Lane

    - St Margarets Rd nearer to Ikea

    - Domville Woods

    - Other housing on Santry Avenue 1, 2 3 4 etc

    - More on Balbutcher Lane

    - Santry Cross, Ballymun 1, 2

    - central Ballymun 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc

    - Balcurris Gardens and the second part?

    - Poppintree Crescent

    - Even more on Balbutcher Lane 1, 2, 3,

    - Behind Silloge Ave 1 and 2

    - Sandyhill Ave

    - Woodhazel Terrace and between it and Coultry Lawn

    Whiteacre Place 1

    Shanowen Road 1, 2

    - DCU's on-campus student residences 1, 2 etc

    - Glasnevin 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

    -Drumcondra (and a little bit around it) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

    -North Circular Road area 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 etc

    - Phibsborough 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 etc

    And that's not even including the city centre.


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    #924
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    monument, I commend the amount of free time you have....that's pure encyclopaedic right there :P


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    #925
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    sdonn wrote: »
    monument, I commend the amount of free time you have....that's pure encyclopaedic right there :P

    I'm still in awe of his posting prowess, I've never seen so many links!:eek:


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    #926
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I'm still in awe of his posting prowess, I've never seen so many links!:eek:

    I'm writing a mental sticky note never to challenge anything he says unless I'm 110% sure! :D


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    #927
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    monument wrote: »
    Your suggestion is pie in the sky.

    It's not immediate and building new roads for buses is not flexible. As I already said 3 or 4 tracking is on the cards anyway with Metro North -- you're failing to understand this, the city needs both, not one or the other.

    It's around 1-2km, or a little more, from most places in Dachau to the train stations. Under 2.5km gets you from almost ever where in the town to the main train station with U-Bahn services, or you can go to the secondary station and switch trains. These are walking and cycling distances to stations.

    Compared that to Swords and it's nearly 7km to the Northern line from parts of Swords. The large bulk of housing is about 5km away from a train station. That's all in the wrong direction -- 5-7km towards the city brings you around or inside the M50. From nearest houses at Estuary Roundabout to Donabate it's nearly 6km in the wrong direction and on heavily congested or tiny roads! The roads don't seem to be worth it.




    No, I did not. You were the one bringing up a flawed example, not me. Different places have massively different factors and, while there is merit in looking at international examples, just because somewhere else does X does not mean we should not do Y.

    What else are you forgetting? That this is Munich's overall rail map?

    800px-VerkehrsnetzMuenchen2008.png

    Munich when viewed overall is not a great example against rail.




    Forgetting that there is no room for proper bus lanes are you?

    Swords is not the only major population area served. The areas in and around Ballymun (from the Northwood area to Hampton Wood, to Ballymun etc) has a very large population, and Drumcondra / Glasnevin / Phibsborough and the North Circular Road area has a massive population. Drumcondra has a surprising amount of new development, most of it can be only seen on side roads.

    There's greater density inside the M50 than outside -- see these maps. This has all been mentioned before.

    Here's some Google Views since you don't seem to trust anything that has been said about density, none of these look like two story houses...

    - Northwood -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 and 7

    - Hampton Wood and the St Margarets Rd area -- 1, 2 etc

    - Balbutcher Lane

    - St Margarets Rd nearer to Ikea

    - Domville Woods

    - Other housing on Santry Avenue 1, 2 3 4 etc

    - More on Balbutcher Lane

    - Santry Cross, Ballymun 1, 2

    - central Ballymun 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc

    - Balcurris Gardens and the second part?

    - Poppintree Crescent

    - Even more on Balbutcher Lane 1, 2, 3,

    - Behind Silloge Ave 1 and 2

    - Sandyhill Ave

    - Woodhazel Terrace and between it and Coultry Lawn

    Whiteacre Place 1

    Shanowen Road 1, 2

    - DCU's on-campus student residences 1, 2 etc

    - Glasnevin 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

    -Drumcondra (and a little bit around it) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

    -North Circular Road area 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 etc

    - Phibsborough 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 etc

    And that's not even including the city centre.

    This is the same old rehash. Thanks for the lovely Google views. I know the area well thank you very much and they only serve to enhance my point of view. The problem is, as always, is that your figures don't add up. You're attaching "very large" and " massive populations" to areas where they don't exist! A 'massive population' on the north circular road???? It's mainly 2-3 story Georgian houses last time I drove down there. In fact I'll stand corrected but I don't think there's any apt blocks on the NCR?

    DCU? Yes the metro will required to get them from the campus residences to the classrooms.

    The city can do quite well out of the the 3/4 tracking with the feeder bus services AND have change to do other projects.

    It is true to say that within the M50 has a RELATIVELY higher density than outside it. That's never been disputed. It's still low density 2 story housing.

    I do not accept that there there is no room for dedicated bus routes, lanes or other means of running express services. It's your supposition that there isn't. If we want them we can build them.

    I didn't bring up Dachau somebody else did but as a recent visitor there it demonstrated to me that this is a good solution for Swords. I don't see a single solution replacing MN but a series of solutions that work in an integrated manner and serve the city.

    So pie in the sky it ain't.


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    #928
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Again, I've replied on the MN thread to keep it all in the one place.


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    #929
    Brian CivilEng
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    BrianD wrote: »
    This is the same old rehash. Thanks for the lovely Google views. I know the area well thank you very much and they only serve to enhance my point of view. The problem is, as always, is that your figures don't add up. You're attaching "very large" and " massive populations" to areas where they don't exist! A 'massive population' on the north circular road???? It's mainly 2-3 story Georgian houses last time I drove down there. In fact I'll stand corrected but I don't think there's any apt blocks on the NCR?

    You seem to be confusing high density for high rise. There is not much high rise in Dublin, but there is high density. Parts of the North circular had a higher density than Ballymun when it was all tower blocks believe it or not. Many of the 3 storey Georgians housed five flats and were located close together with two storey houses. Ballymun as a district with its tower blocks and wide open spaces was not high density. In fact Ballymun's low rise present has not seen a drop in population over the same area. In other European cities streets with purpose built terraces of three storey apartment blocks are classed as high density. High rise is not equal to high density.


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    #930
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,860 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    BrianD wrote: »
    A 'massive population' on the north circular road???? It's mainly 2-3 story Georgian houses last time I drove down there. In fact I'll stand corrected but I don't think there's any apt blocks on the NCR?

    And how many of those 2-3 storey Georgian houses on the NCR are split into apartments?

    Because I know plenty of them on the SCR are....


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    #931
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Even if you accept that the population density inside the M50 is lower than outside the M50, it's a silly argument anyway because it shouldn't be. This suburbanisation and massive spreading out is part of our problem.

    We need infrastructure to make living within the M50 more desirable than living in a silly commuter town.


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