Bertie retiring from politics

Biggins · 02-01-2011 3:33pm

Glad to see you back on topic.

What Bertie did and again its been acknowledged, is to indeed do some good.
Some might say it was heavily on the backs of others. History will be the judge of that. The consensus is that it already has.

However for all the good that he was a part of, a member of a large team, he and that team from its earliest conception, especially from Haughty onwards was (and is) steeped up to their necks more so in very, very questionable person antics and irregularities!

If a robber steals me of ten quid, should I be grateful, to continue to hold him in astounding respect to him that on his way to the bank, he donates one of those quids to the state?

No, while Bertie was busy doing what he was doing for us, meanwhile he was more busy lining pockets by various means, for himself, for his mates and at the detriment of the state - thats you and I.

Histroy will be his judge but then again it already has and by the end of the year more details will emerge that also too will be part of historical record regarding Bertie.

Your view of Bertie will clearly have to differ from the rest of us. We are never going to agree.
(I think thats the real thing WE CAN agree on)

Fitzerb · 02-01-2011 4:03pm

Biggins wrote: »

Glad to see you back on topic.

What Bertie did and again its been acknowledged, is to indeed do some good.
Some might say it was heavily on the backs of others. History will be the judge of that. The consensus is that it already has.

However for all the good that he was a part of, a member of a large team, he and that team from its earliest conception, especially from Haughty onwards was (and is) steeped up to their necks more so in very, very questionable person antics and irregularities!

If a robber steals me of ten quid, should I be grateful, to continue to hold him in astounding respect to him that on his way to the bank, he donates one of those quids to the state?

No, while Bertie was busy doing what he was doing for us, meanwhile he was more busy lining pockets by various means, for himself, for his mates and at the detriment of the state - thats you and I.

Histroy will be his judge but then again it already has and by the end of the year more details will emerge that also too will be part of historical record regarding Bertie.

Your view of Bertie will clearly have to differ from the rest of us. We are never going to agree.
(I think thats the real thing WE CAN agree on)

I agree we will not agree

Until a judicial finding that he is guilty of corruption then he is not guilty by association. Otherwise we allow the media to run the country. That does not just apply to him to but to all

Biggins · 02-01-2011 4:20pm

Fitzerb wrote: »

I agree we will not agree

Until a judicial finding that he is guilty of corruption then he is not guilty by association. Otherwise we allow the media to run the country. That does not just apply to him to but to all

On that note, I still wish you well in the new year and hope its a good one for all of us despite whats coming down the line due to the actions/inactions of others we debate on.

ilovesleep · 02-01-2011 4:56pm

@Fitzerb above

The late 90s was a good time. We entered into the 00s and it was all based on lies, deceit and corruption.

There was nothing done to control such a property boom. All you had to do was look in every town, village and city in Ireland to see that building were being thrown up left, right and centre. It was crazy. Was it needed? In my opinion - no. I'll take my own little town as an example. Property developers came in with the intention of pulling down a forest to build a housing estate. There was a petition signed against it but they continued. Estate finished now for 3 years - all houses empty.

If the country was allowed to develop at a steady pace under the correct conditions we would not be where we are today.

ilovesleep · 02-01-2011 4:59pm

Another very big mistake was not widening the tax base when Ireland allowed Eastern Europeans to come here and work. Our government allowed god only knows how much to pour out from the economy.

K-9 · 02-01-2011 5:21pm

ilovesleep wrote: »

Another very big mistake was not widening the tax base when Ireland allowed Eastern Europeans to come here and work. Our government allowed god only knows how much to pour out from the economy.

The big political parties all fell for the lower taxes line, even SF were at it in the last election. There isn't anything wrong with low taxes as long as spending suits your means, which it clearly doesn't. Now we are left increasing them in a recession and it's never going to come close to meet spending without serious cuts, which in turn affects growth and tax revenues and so the vicious circle continues.

We had a small property tax here and water rates, but they were abolished by FG in the mid 90's. FF would more than likely have done the same too.

steddyeddy · 02-01-2011 5:25pm

Sorry but in my opinion bertie was hugely corrupt, the fact that he was investigated is irellavent. As is the fact that he says he wasnt warned, he continued investing in a property boom in a small island. his party clearly didnt save, and the developers clearly made bertie money personally!

ilovesleep · 02-01-2011 5:40pm

K-9 wrote: »

The big political parties all fell for the lower taxes line, even SF were at it in the last election. There isn't anything wrong with low taxes as long as spending suits your means, which it clearly doesn't. Now we are left increasing them in a recession and it's never going to come close to meet spending without serious cuts, which in turn affects growth and tax revenues and so the vicious circle continues.

We had a small property tax here and water rates, but they were abolished by FG in the mid 90's. FF would more than likely have done the same too.

Thats right. When times were good it was the time to hit us and possibly save for the future. But knowing FF they would have squandered it all away building massive knitting needles in every county. They are hitting us now when times are bad, we're in a recession and entering into a deep depression.

Biggins · 02-01-2011 6:36pm

ilovesleep wrote: »

Thats right. When times were good it was the time to hit us and possibly save for the future. But knowing FF they would have squandered it all away building massive knitting needles in every county. They are hitting us now when times are bad, we're in a recession and entering into a deep depression.

Agreed.
Not one but two independent reports had similar criticism of the Ahern years, his/their (FF) practise in office and their lack of action in some quarters and when they did do anything, it was the wrong actions in other cases!

For simple example:

Wednesday June 09 2010

Ireland's banking meltdown was a result of "home-made" decisions rather than the global economic crisis, a damning report by international experts declared today.
Former International Monetary Fund officials investigating the lead-up to the Irish crash said the Government's Budgets during the boom years left the country vulnerable.
The findings by Klaus Regling and Max Watson, in one of two reports that will inform an official inquiry into the banking crisis, deliver a major blow to Taoiseach Brian Cowen, who was finance minister ahead of the economic nosedive.
The authors of the report said: "Ireland's banking crisis bears the clear imprint of global influences, yet it was in crucial ways 'home-made'."
The report found that careful management and supervision of the public finances and banking sector could have helped steer the country towards a "soft landing" when the recession came.
But rather than keeping a tight control on the boom, the Government spent the money - from taxes on property and consumer spending - as it came in with giveaway Budgets.
Along with that, tax cuts left the State coffers in an "increasingly fragile" position, according to the investigation.
"Fiscal policy heightened the vulnerability of the economy," the experts said.
Mr Regling and Mr Watson said it was clear that bank governance and risk management were weak and "in some cases disastrously so".

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/banking-meltdown-was-homemade-2214172.html

Or more detail: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reports-blame-cowen-for-stoking-fires-of-meltdown-2212420.html

Ali Babba · 02-01-2011 7:13pm

There's never a homicidal maniac around when you need one........Politics in this country needs a serious culling. The fcukers are just taking the piss now, even the ones you think have any saving grace are draining the coffers at every turn.

ValJester · 02-01-2011 7:23pm

Ireland was the third freest economy in the world during th Ahern era, meaning he has to face up to his responsibility. His criticising the bailout is smacking of how out-of-touch he ultimately is, considering how much of it is his fault.

the purple tin · 02-01-2011 7:25pm

gandalf wrote: »

I know that if I saw Bertie Ahern on the street I would go out of my way to ensure he knew what I thought of him (and it wouldn't be good!). I think it is incumbent on every one to ensure this charlatan is treated like the pariah every time he sets foot on the streets of this country from now onwards. The damage that he and his ilk have done to Ireland will be felt for generations.

Anyone who swears at him or uses any sort of threatening language would most likely be arrested and charged with something or other.
The solution is to come up with a national nick-name for him that everyone can shout at him when they see him on the street
(something like BIFFO- apparently Cowen really hates that)
That would really get under his skin after a while.:)

Ali Babba · 02-01-2011 7:57pm

the purple tin wrote: »

Anyone who swears at him or uses any sort of threatening language would most likely be arrested and charged with something or other.
The solution is to come up with a national nick-name for him that everyone can shout at him when they see him on the street
(something like BIFFO- apparently Cowen really hates that)
That would really get under his skin after a while.:)

Well why not start a thread to pick one? We've heard of the "Rat in the Anorak" i'm sure we can get one with all the interested parties on here?

ilovesleep · 02-01-2011 9:55pm

Ali Babba wrote: »

Well why not start a thread to pick one? We've heard of the "Rat in the Anorak" i'm sure we can get one with all the interested parties on here?

Cant believe your other thread was locked.
How about Banjo. A banjo reminds me of a fiddle and Bertie being the biggest fiddler of them all. It may be suitable. Theres a nice ring to Biffo and Banjo too.

Any more suggestions?

We need a nickname for Lenihan too.

Ali Babba · 02-01-2011 10:10pm

ilovesleep wrote: »

Cant believe your other thread was locked.
How about Banjo. A banjo reminds me of a fiddle and Bertie being the biggest fiddler of them all. It may be suitable. Theres a nice ring to Biffo and Banjo too.

Any more suggestions?

We need a nickname for Lenihan too.

Neither can I, censorship is really taking a hold around these parts too it's almost like RTE.......

K-9 · 03-01-2011 12:24am

Decent piece on him here, particularly on his battle with Cowen pre the Ard Fheis before the 07 election. Originally there was no tax cuts in the FF manifesto, the story is that Ahern over ruled Cowen on that and indulged in the same auction politics as the opposition.

Regrets? He'll have a few, as Ahern draws the final curtain

Perhaps the most telling example of Ahern's political style came at the 2007 Fianna Fáil ardfheis. A general election was imminent and there was a debate going on within the party as to what the economic policy should be. While nobody could see the extent of what was coming down the tracks, it was clear even then that tough economic times lay ahead. Finance minister Brian Cowen was urging the party opt for a cautious steady-as-she-goes approach, ruling out extravagant promises on the grounds they were irresponsible and unaffordable. But at the last minute, Ahern – conscious that the opposition was offering all manner of goodies – opted to pack his presidential address with promises of further tax cuts and spending increases. It was a triumph of political pragmatism over sound economic policy and that is what happened throughout Ahern's tenure.

proon4 · 03-01-2011 7:28am

gbee wrote: »

I'm voting for Norris. A gentleman with a real education and rearing. IMO Norris has something really tangible to give to Ireland, and having met him, he is a real Irish man and has Ireland's interest at heart.

A perv who agrees with under age homosexual sex,,,, and who claims 1916 leaders are terrorists.... Yet he wants to be the President of the state those heros fought and died for.. Norris me ass

gbee · 03-01-2011 11:14am

proon4 wrote: »

A perv who agrees with under age homosexual sex,,,, and who claims 1916 leaders are terrorists.... Yet he wants to be the President of the state those heros fought and died for.. Norris me ass

Sexual consent is lower for gays, do you mean lower than this again?

Yes, the 1916 guys were terrorists ~ but we've had that thread already.

I think Norris may be too sophisticated for the average Irish Joe, sadly as the above rhetoric is a commonly heard homophobic, monodialectic interpretation.

proon4 · 03-01-2011 11:35am

gbee wrote: »

Sexual consent is lower for gays, do you mean lower than this again?

Yes, the 1916 guys were terrorists ~ but we've had that thread already.

I think Norris may be too sophisticated for the average Irish Joe, sadly as the above rhetoric is a commonly heard homophobic, monodialectic interpretation.

But the truth is still the truth,,,,he is a disgrace

Mike 1972 · 03-01-2011 12:54pm

gbee wrote: »

Sexual consent is lower for gays,

Ali Babba · 03-01-2011 1:41pm

proon4 wrote: »

Norris me ass

Careful now..........

proon4 · 03-01-2011 3:27pm

Ali Babba wrote: »

Careful now..........

Freudian slip methinks

steddyeddy · 03-01-2011 11:56pm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-abandoned-by-ff-after-ahern-attack-2481528.html

bertie attacks cowen

the purple tin · 04-01-2011 2:25pm

ilovesleep wrote: »

Cant believe your other thread was locked.
How about Banjo. A banjo reminds me of a fiddle and Bertie being the biggest fiddler of them all. It may be suitable. Theres a nice ring to Biffo and Banjo too.

Any more suggestions?

We need a nickname for Lenihan too.

I think Porky Pig would be good for Bertie because
1 he's greedy
2 he looks a bit like him
3 he talks just like him (his last words upon leaving the Dail will probably be "d-d-d-d-dats all folks")

superelliptic · 04-01-2011 4:41pm

OutlawPete wrote: »

I was just going to start a thread on this.

I am fuming and cannot believe the quote I just heard on the news:

He said that if he could have changed one thing it would have been the banking crisis, but no one "from an economist to a journalist" advised him of an impending problem, "never once", he insisted.

This is an out and out lie!

Sure he criticized economists on a regular basis for being negative.

My post would get deleted if I said what I wanted to.

Unbelievable, the man has some fecking neck.

Haughey was spot on with his summation of the man.

I heard him doing that pass the buck routine myself. F**kin' disgraceful. The man held the highest political position for over a decade and he had no idea? And no one tried to warn him that the celtic tiger was just a speculation bubble? Yeah right...

We need major political reform in this country, and the first step there is to reform and strenghten the Seanad, so that there's more opposition in place against FF and their ilk when they come back in a decade or so.

steddyeddy · 05-01-2011 12:09am

superelliptic wrote: »

I heard him doing that pass the buck routine myself. F**kin' disgraceful. The man held the highest political position for over a decade and he had no idea? And no one tried to warn him that the celtic tiger was just a speculation bubble? Yeah right...

We need major political reform in this country, and the first step there is to reform and strenghten the Seanad, so that there's more opposition in place against FF and their ilk when they come back in a decade or so.

he now blames cowen and the regulators, this man who accepted more brown envelopes than an post

ilovesleep · 05-01-2011 12:36am

steddyeddy wrote: »

he now blames cowen and the regulators, this man who accepted more brown envelopes than an post

I hope cowen has the balls to stand up to that maggot ahern. Heres hoping cowen has a wife at home thats sucking him off every night to make him a happy man. He might come back after his xmas break and do some good for the country while he is still there. Mrs cowen - if you are reading this will you please suck your husband and finger his bum and do whatever that pleases him.

aDeener · 05-01-2011 12:39am

gbee wrote: »

Sexual consent is lower for gays, do you mean lower than this again?

Yes, the 1916 guys were terrorists ~ but we've had that thread already.

I think Norris may be too sophisticated for the average Irish Joe, sadly as the above rhetoric is a commonly heard homophobic, monodialectic interpretation.

and we already have an early contender for condescending post of the year....

Grassroots_FF · 05-01-2011 1:31am

I think Bertie was a very good taoiseach but lost his way from 2004 onwards. He should have kept McCreevy as Finance Minister.

Grassroots_FF · 05-01-2011 1:34am

gbee wrote: »

Sexual consent is lower for gays, do you mean lower than this again?

Yes, the 1916 guys were terrorists ~ but we've had that thread already.

I think Norris may be too sophisticated for the average Irish Joe, sadly as the above rhetoric is a commonly heard homophobic, monodialectic interpretation.

David Norris does not represent the values of the ordinary Irish man or woman and should not be president. We should have someone who is Christian, married, centrist and with a love for Irish history and gaelic games.

Bertie retiring from politics

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