Budget 2011 - Roads thread

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2010 12:26am

Have you not noticed the glaring hole in the numbers.

How is it possible to spend €720 million and all you get is CPOs in Galway and Kerry and Cavan and Longford and a fraction of a road start in each of those counties. N11 Wicklow is already CPO'd.

Most of this money is earmarked for 'retention payments' for projects that are already complete.

Once the bulk of the €720m is allocated to local authorities in Februrary or so we will see precisely which. Lots of counties like Tipp and Limerick and Kilkenny will get allocated 10s of €ms early next year. Speeches will be made, TDs willthank Dempsey and wlecome the money. Yet not a single inch of National road will be built in those counties in 2011.

Don't expect the 'retention payments' to be paid in 2011 either. I reckon actual expenditure will be more like €500m and no more than €100m on the projects that are actually under construction in 2011.

At least 10% of this money will be spend on consultants designing roads that will not be built as long as I live too.

munchkin_utd · 08-12-2010 12:41pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

How is it possible to spend €720 million and all you get is CPOs in Galway and Kerry and Cavan and Longford and a fraction of a road start in each of those counties. N11 Wicklow is already CPO'd.

Check the N3 thread that i started for the Cavan project.

Theres been tens of millions spent on planning, archaeology AND CPO already from previous years budgets.
Heres an article from last march where the county manager states that "All the land has been purchased and ancillary works will be finalised this year,"
http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2010/03/18/3995666-belturbet-bypass-to-start-in-march-2011/

They might find other excuses not to start it but they already have paid for the land (dearly) so they may as well get on with it.

Or is the government going to go into farming CPO'd land as well as taking on property management through nama!

spacetweek · 08-12-2010 3:58pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Most of this money is earmarked for 'retention payments' for projects that are already complete.

What's a retention payment?

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2010 4:27pm

spacetweek wrote: »

What's a retention payment?

Money owed for a road that is already built and opened, maybe 10% of the contract amount. To ensure snagging is finished etc.

Quite a lot of roads were finished in 2009/2010, possibly even 2008, and retention payments are outstanding on them.

ongarboy · 08-12-2010 6:08pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Have you not noticed the glaring hole in the numbers.

How is it possible to spend €720 million and all you get is CPOs in Galway and Kerry and Cavan and Longford and a fraction of a road start in each of those counties. N11 Wicklow is already CPO'd.

The Tralee bypass already has gone through the CPO stage and is ready for tender which means actual construction will commence in 2011 (mid year by latest reports) - that is what yesterday's budget has allocated funding for.

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2010 9:54pm

ongarboy wrote: »

The Tralee bypass already has gone through the CPO stage and is ready for tender which means actual construction will commence in 2011 (mid year by latest reports) - that is what yesterday's budget has allocated funding for.

That project might explain as much as €70m of the overall budget in FY2011 with the rest to come in 2012 and 2013 but more likely €50m in 2011.

Tech3 · 08-12-2010 10:50pm

The bypasses will be pittance. That leaves a massive gap wondering where the rest will go. Pointless funding the early processes of schemes that will never be built in our lifetime.

Amtmann · 09-12-2010 12:00pm

Any forthcoming CPOs announced?

Sponge Bob · 09-12-2010 12:56pm

You mean Cork-Midleton is to be CPO'd again like it was supposed to be in 2006 2008 2010 ( or whatever 3 years the CPOs were announced in the past ??)

Meaningless Furet, utterly meaningless.

Amtmann · 11-12-2010 3:56pm

I suppose it is. Gutted that the NRR and N28 in particular have been forgotten about. They should at least be made EIS-ready.

However, I am delighted that the Cork SRR interchanges will proceed. I'll be able to document the construction until August at least. The other bypasses (Longford, Belturbet) are miniscule. I suppose we can expect some announcements RE the M11 and Newlands Cross next week or the week after. No mention of MSAs, despite their inclusion in the four-year plan published two weeks ago. I'd expect the Cashel service area will be the first to be built. Now I'd just like to see the NRA's scheme priority list... what are the chances it will be made public?

Sponge Bob · 11-12-2010 8:52pm

The Cork NRR EIS is with the consultants, the N28 is forgotten.

Chris_5339762 · 11-12-2010 9:30pm

Do you know if its the East or West section with the consultants Spongey? Last I heard the West section was practically abandoned.

Sponge Bob · 12-12-2010 4:48pm

East, you are absolutely correct on the West

Amtmann · 12-12-2010 4:54pm

Are you absolutely sure that the eastern section is having its EIS prepared at the moment SpongeBob?

Sponge Bob · 12-12-2010 9:14pm

IIRC Fehilly got one of those full service contracts

The CPO/EIS should have been finished and published in 2009 said ...guess who??

http://www.noeldempsey.ie/index.php/national/minister-for-transport-mr-noel-dempsey-announces-144-billion-allocation-for-2009-national-roads-programme

Amtmann · 12-12-2010 9:59pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

IIRC Fehilly got one of those full service contracts

The CPO/EIS should have been finished and published in 2009 said ...guess who??

http://www.noeldempsey.ie/index.php/national/minister-for-transport-mr-noel-dempsey-announces-144-billion-allocation-for-2009-national-roads-programme

Duly noted. Tell me, does the CPO have to issue along with the EIS? Because a staff member at the Cork National Roads Design Office told me there were indications that monies for the CPO would likely not be forthcoming but that "the EIS wouldn't take long to publish because a lot of work had already been done".

Chris_5339762 · 12-12-2010 10:00pm

· Seven projects are moving forward into the Compulsory Purchase Order stage in 2009 .These projects are (N11) Gorey to Enniscorthy (incl Enniscorthy Bypass); (N20) Cork to Limerick Northern Section; (N20) Cork to Limerick Southern Section; (N22) Ballyvourney to Macroom; (N22) Cork Northern Ring Road; (N25) Carrigtwohill to Midleton and (N56) Mountcharles to Inver.

What a pile of lies.

Sponge Bob · 13-12-2010 12:22am

Furet wrote: »

Duly noted. Tell me, does the CPO have to issue along with the EIS? Because a staff member at the Cork National Roads Design Office told me there were indications that monies for the CPO would likely not be forthcoming but that "the EIS wouldn't take long to publish because a lot of work had already been done".

There is a difference between publishing a CPO and EIS ( they are always issued together) and actually buying the land. I suppose an EIS could issue on its own in fairness. The publication of the CPO sort of sets off a clock though.

Once the CPO and EIS are published there is an an Bord P hearing which may vary the road and therefore the footprint and extent of the CPOs .

The actual purchasing of the land occurs after the An Bord P Inspector publishes their report. The rule was that the land must actually be purchased within 18 months of that publication date or that a CPO and Offer price must be issued and if anyone agrees they should be paid .....although Frank Fahey and co extended that period where any court challenge has been taken against any aspect whatsoever of the An Bord P decision in a little known act that was barged through the Dáil in an evening back in July.

It should have been moved by Gormley ( it is a planning act in essence) but one evening Dempsey and Fahey showed up in the Dáil

It is Called. The "COMPULSORY PURCHASE ORDERS (EXTENSION OF TIME LIMITS) ACT 2010"

Read what happened

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-07-07.920.0&s=compulsory+purchase+order+fahey#g932.0

http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2010-07-07.274.0&s=compulsory+purchase+order+extension

The Act ( v short and easy reading)

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2010/a1710.pdf

spacetweek · 14-12-2010 1:48am

Is it too early to speculate on the schemes we'll see in 2012? There probably won't be any big ones (motorways) it seems, but what about singlers?

Amtmann · 14-12-2010 2:42am

spacetweek wrote: »

Is it too early to speculate on the schemes we'll see in 2012? There probably won't be any big ones (motorways) it seems, but what about singlers?

I'm going to predict a start on the Dunkettle Interchange in Q4 2012, assuming the EIS is approved, as expected, by Q2 2012.

Chris_5339762 · 14-12-2010 6:58pm

Yeah, Dunkettle should be started ASAP. It'll be reasonably cheap (compared to stretches of motorway) and will benefit a whole ton of people. Also it'll be the next Newlands (if not worse) once the SRR junctions are done.

Amtmann · 24-01-2011 9:40pm

This press release was issued today: http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=280

The budget allocations per county council are also included. Two additional N road schemes will start - the N4 Downs grade separation and the N87 Ballyconnell Relief Road.

This kind of information always appears towards the end of January, regardless of the election. I believe these builds will get underway this year.

Chris_5339762 · 24-01-2011 9:59pm

New Minister for Transport, new schemes. God knows if any of these will start. The PPPs seem to have stalled, no money has come forth regarding the non-PPPs, I dont hold much hope for anything

Amtmann · 24-01-2011 10:11pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

New Minister for Transport, new schemes. God knows if any of these will start. The PPPs seem to have stalled, no money has come forth regarding the non-PPPs, I dont hold much hope for anything

You owe me a pint at the 2011 Infrastructure forum beers if I'm right, and vice versa if I'm wrong

Pete_Cavan · 24-01-2011 10:38pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

New Minister for Transport, new schemes. God knows if any of these will start. The PPPs seem to have stalled, no money has come forth regarding the non-PPPs, I dont hold much hope for anything

These are not new schemes. The N87 Ballyconnell Relief Road was tendered before Christmas and Priority construction are the lowest bidder. The N4 The Downs Grade Separation had an invitation to tender for archaeological services with closing date the begining of January so both progressed to this stage under Dempsey.

marmurr1916 · 25-01-2011 2:42am

WORK IS to begin this year on four major new road schemes including interchanges on the Cork Southern Ring Road and bypasses of Belturbet, Co Cavan, Longford town and Tralee, Co Kerry.

In addition it is hoped to sign contracts for two large-scale public-private partnerships that are scheduled to begin before the year’s end. These are the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway and the N11 Arklow to Rathnew and Newlands Cross upgrades.

Confirmation of the inclusion of the schemes in 2011 allocation was announced yesterday by Minister for Transport Pat Carey.

Some €877 million is to be spent on the National Roads Programme, which Fine Gael transport spokesman Simon Coveney described as a cut of 20 per cent on last year’s budget.

Mr Coveney said the allocation would “condemn motorists to another year of dangerous roads strewn with dangerous potholes”.

The Cork ring-road junction improvements will involve construction of Bandon Road and Sarsfield Road flyovers. Both junctions have been bottlenecks on the ring road and the new interchanges are considered an important infrastructural asset for the region.

The bypass of Longford will divert Mayo-bound traffic away from the centre of the county town, passing it to the southwest. Longford is already bypassed to the northeast by the N4.

The Belturbet bypass is part of the N3 Butlersbridge to Belturbet road-improvement scheme that involves the construction of some seven kilometres of standard single carriageway and a major river crossing of the river Erne.

The bypass of Tralee on the N22 will link the N69 Listowel road with the N70 Killorglin road, via the N21 Limerick road.

The M17/18 Gort to Tuam road is part of the Atlantic corridor and and consists of 57km of motorway. The scheme commences at the northern extremity of the N18 Gort to Crusheen scheme and extends in a northerly direction with junctions at Kiltiernan connecting to the N67, at Rathmorrissy connecting to the new M6 Dublin Galway route, at Annagh Hill connecting to N63, and at Tuam connecting to the existing N17.

The allocation does not mention the commitment of the Government to spend some €480 million on roads in the North. About €30 million in planning costs are understood to have already been made for roads linking Aughnacloy to Derry and from the Port of Larne towards Belfast. The next payment, of about €13 million, is due this year.

Construction is to begin in August 2012 and end in July 2015.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0125/1224288249098.html

'Hoped to sign contracts for', 'to begin before the year's end'. I hope this doesn't mean that the M18/17 and N11/Newland's X schemes will end up being deferred until 2012.

road_high · 25-01-2011 8:36am

They say the N5 Longford bypass is to go southwest of the town. Thought it was planned to go the north of the town no?

munchkin_utd · 25-01-2011 9:09am

mfitzy wrote: »

They say the N5 Longford bypass is to go southwest of the town. Thought it was planned to go the north of the town no?

yup,
heres the map:
http://www.longfordcoco.ie/uploadedFiles/LongfordCoCo/Our_Departments/Roads/Documents/N5_Longford_Bypass/N5Drawing.pdf

if you google "Longford by pass" its the first link.
Its a wonder our national papers cant use such a simple search tool!!
And its no wonder that print media is suffering declining sales when what they often print is factually incorrect.

Neworder79 · 25-01-2011 11:25am

Guess N5 Ballaghaderreen bypass is off the agenda so, Cowen was promising this would begin in 2011 a few months back.

Tech3 · 26-01-2011 12:38am

A couple of 1-2km bypasses I wont be much impressed with and junction upgrades. The real major schemes such as the M11/Newlands X and M17/M18 PPP's are more important projects in my opinion. Also the Tralee bypass should be binned and money put away in the coffers for a much larger schemes that will benefit a lot more of the population of the country such as:

N21 Adare-Abbeyfeale
N24 Pallasgreen-Cahir
N17 Tuam-Claremorris

Also getting the M20 to tender is vitally important, I believe M4 to Longford is a luxury in the current climate and should also be sidelined. Getting rid of the remaining sections of narrow S2 on our national primary roads is what the NRA should be striving to do. I believe the new government should cancel the Tralee bypass when possible.

Budget 2011 - Roads thread

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