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M7/M8 Portlaoise-Castletown-Cullahill Motorway (incl. Abbeyleix Bypass)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,943 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    You can still get on the M7 at Borris-in-Ossory. Same route as for getting on the old N7 from the N77. Junction 20 is just a nice to have as it bypasses some of the R434.

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    The first access off the new M7 is onto the R435 outside Borris In Ossory. There is no access to the R434 from the M7 or M8 (the R434 crosses both new roads).

    I haven't looked around the M7/M8 interchange, but I doubt there's local access to the motorway at that point. From what I know, once you pass Portlaoise, the next exit off is the R435 in Borris In Ossory for the M7. I'm not sure if there's access to the M8 near Rathdowney (R433) before the current access at Urlingford (old N8, now the R689)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Stark wrote: »
    You can still get on the M7 at Borris-in-Ossory. Same route as for getting on the old N7 from the N77. Junction 20 is just a nice to have as it bypasses some of the R434.

    The interchange shouldnt of been removed in the first place. Either way it was still inadequate as there is no other movments on this motorway except Dublin bound which is ridicolous considering how far it from Dublin.


    The old road will stll be very busy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭emfifty


    mysterious wrote: »
    The junction is still going ahead there, it has to allow the R434 and N77 access the M7. This route is busy to allow the West and Midwest to access Loais, Kilkenny and Carlow.



    just a quick q....is exit 18 at the end of portlaoise bypass going to be a full or restricted access junction??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    emfifty wrote: »
    just a quick q....is exit 18 at the end of portlaoise bypass going to be a full or restricted access junction??
    Junction 18 will be full access, and is scheduled to be open and in use very soon to facilitate tying the M7/M8 Scheme into the existing M7.

    All the west bound traffic from Dublin that wishes to bypass the toll will be getting off there and rejoining the M7 near Borris-in-Ossory (J21), and the south bound traffic will get off the M7 at J17 and rejoin the M8 near Ballacolla (J3). North/east bound traffic will obviously do the same in reverse.
    On that map, the toll plaza is under the 'th' of "Mountrath".

    The feasibility of moving from one motorway to the other between these junctions (via Rathdowney, I suppose) in order to avoid going on through the restricted junction (J19/1) and up through the toll to M7 J18 and back again remains to be seen.

    We locals are at this stage pretty much resigned to the prospect that a considerable amount of inter-city/long-distance traffic will still be going through Mountrath, Borris-in-Ossory, and Abbeyleix, with Ballacolla seeing an enormous increase in traffic movements.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Rovi wrote: »
    We locals are at this stage pretty much resigned to the prospect that a considerable amount of inter-city/long-distance traffic will still be going through Mountrath, Borris-in-Ossory, and Abbeyleix, with Ballacolla seeing an enormous increase in traffic movements.

    The R434 is very badly aligned as it is. I'll wait and see what happens, but it seems at this stage that the scheme was quite badly conceived in several ways.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    M7 junction 20 was rejected by An Bórd Pleanála (ABP) on 29 October 2004 in order to limit increased traffic movements through Ballacolla AND so that the possibility for future full access from the M8 to the M7 would not be compromised. See ER2028 on ABP's website, or page 2 of the attached document below (section: "Modifications").

    M8 Junction 3 was removed by the NRA in the summer of 2003, prior to publication of the Motorway Order. The reasons for the removal may have been discussed at the Oral Hearing in May 2004. The transcript of the Hearing might assist us in finding out the reasons behind its omission.

    The toll plaza at M8 junction 3 has yet to appear --- which is a good indication that no toll plaza will be built here. This is based on the fact that the building and testing of such plazas take a long time to finalise --- longer than the target opening date of SEPTEMBER 2010 permits (reportedly). The scheme *could * be on track to open in June or July, however; but so far, "Although there are sections where excellent progress has been made there still remains sections which have rail crossing and very poor ground conditions which are progressing as programme. The PPP Company (CRG) and the Contractor (PJV) have not provided any indication that the motorway will open in advance of September 2010." A toll plaza at junction 3 is NOT part of the ABP Approved Scheme.

    The Cullahill roundabout WILL be removed; obviously this will be one of the last things to take place. Traffic will probably exit the M8 at junction 4 (Urlingford) for about one day in order to facilitate works.

    The scheme WILL open with emergency phones.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    This is an excellent document detailing all objections considered during the hearing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Furet wrote: »
    M7 junction 20 was rejected by An Bórd Pleanála (ABP) on 29 October 2004 in order to limit increased traffic movements through Ballacolla AND so that the possibility for future full access from the M8 to the M7 would not be compromised. See ER2028 on ABP's website, or page 2 of the attached document below (section: "Modifications").

    M8 Junction 3 was removed by the NRA in the summer of 2003, prior to publication of the Motorway Order. The reasons for the removal may have been discussed at the Oral Hearing in May 2004. The transcript of the Hearing might assist us in finding out the reasons behind its omission.

    The toll plaza at M8 junction 3 has yet to appear --- which is a good indication that no toll plaza will be built here. This is based on the fact that the building and testing of such plazas take a long time to finalise --- longer than the target opening date of SEPTEMBER 2010 permits (reportedly). The scheme *could * be on track to open in June or July, however; but so far, "Although there are sections where excellent progress has been made there still remains sections which have rail crossing and very poor ground conditions which are progressing as programme. The PPP Company (CRG) and the Contractor (PJV) have not provided any indication that the motorway will open in advance of September 2010." A toll plaza at junction 3 is NOT part of the ABP Approved Scheme.

    The Cullahill roundabout WILL be removed; obviously this will be one of the last things to take place. Traffic will probably exit the M8 at junction 4 (Urlingford) for about one day in order to facilitate works.

    The scheme WILL open with emergency phones.


    It was nothing to do with traffic going through ballacolla. this is ****ing bull****. The R434 was designed to connect the N7 with the N77 with Durrow and the N8 south thats the reason traffic uses this road. it's also the reason why people use the road to Durrow.

    The traffic using this road wouldnt change at all. The only thing thats changed in that corrupt ****ing an bord Plenala, is the government ensured that all interchanges are built to make traffic use the toll.

    Thats the reason. The lack of interchanges on the R434 will ensure there is MORE traffic on the local roads.:rolleyes:

    This is proving how incompetent these "planners" really are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    mysterious wrote: »
    ****ing pathetic morons running this country. I think everyone in the nra should be sacked now and I'm serious.

    Mysterious, I'll not have you knocking the NRA, just look at the calibre on the board, there is not one appointee that you can question!
    http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/347/m50-directors-unmasked/
    I rang the NRA to ask about the board...Happily, a helpful NRA employee told me a bit about a few of them — from memory.

    Chairman Peter Malone ....is a well-known hotelier — not an engineer — and was the boss of Jurys; but Peter is also a favourite of politicians. Apart from being parachuted into the NRA chair by ministerial patronage, he has served as chairman of semi-state Bord na Mona, was a member of the review body on higher public sector remuneration and chairs property company, CBRE Gunne.

    Peter’s fellow-director, Connie Ni Fhatharta. An interesting woman, Connie. Of most interest is that she is a Fianna Fail councillor in Galway and a defeated Seanad candidate.

    Jenny Kent....is an able woman. She comes from a topical place; currently she is president of the Laois Chamber of Commerce. “Ahem,” I hear you mutter. “Laois, eh? A protegee of Brian Cowen?”
    Jenny’s husband is an Irish Farmers Association bigwig , a disciple of Tom Parlon — the former Progressive Democrat minister from the same Laois constituency.

    Raymond Potterton.....a business partner of Loman Dempsey, brother of none other than cabinet minister Noel Dempsey.

    David Holden. .... a great friend and supporter of the late Fianna Fail minister Seamus Brennan, who appointed him to the board. David even delivered a eulogy at Seamus’s funeral.

    NRA director and Thurles councillor Frances Boyle, whose father was a Fianna Failer and herself was regarded as a Progressive Democrat/government sympathiser — although elected as an independent. Frances runs a shop in Thurles.

    NRA director Eimear McAuliffe, a nurse by profession, loyally flew the Fianna Fail flag as a candidate at the last local elections.
    I hope you'll retract your statement now:D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    But if they did build the interchanges off the new motorways, then more people would use the road to avoid the toll, thus causing the crossroads in Ballacolla to become much more busy. And it would almost certainly mean that the traffic entering Abbeyleix would join the N8 from the R433. As it is, the junction designs allow people who wish to avoid the toll travel along a much higher spec road (N7/N8) and not the twisty windy back road that is the R434


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    But if they did build the interchanges off the new motorways, then more people would use the road to avoid the toll, thus causing the crossroads in Ballacolla to become much more busy. And it would almost certainly mean that the traffic entering Abbeyleix would join the N8 from the R433. As it is, the junction designs allow people who wish to avoid the toll travel along a much higher spec road (N7/N8) and not the twisty windy back road that is the R434

    No it means that the current N7/N8 now M7/M8 stil have access to the R434 and N77.

    The idea of this crap that your failing to miss here, is the toll is there to further enhance people to pay greedy tolls for tax payesr money. Which is a scam.

    The N77 will now become usless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Mysterious, I'll not have you knocking the NRA, just look at the calibre on the board, there is not one appointee that you can question!
    http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/347/m50-directors-unmasked/

    I hope you'll retract your statement now:D

    No i'm not a gimp or a sheep D'peoples voice. If I say something I mean it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    mysterious wrote: »
    No it means that the current N7/N8 now M7/M8 stil have access to the R434 and N77.

    The idea of this crap that your failing to miss here, is the toll is there to further enhance people to pay greedy tolls for tax payesr money. Which is a scam.

    The N77 will now become usless.

    I'm sure anyone wishing to go to Kilkenny/Waterford from Laois/Offaly/Westmeath will be glad of the N77. Not to mention to numerous people that live along it and within close proximity to it. Also, if you want access to the R434/N77, hop off the M8 near Rathdowney and go along the R433, or alternatively use the existing N7/N8.
    Saying that an existing road (N77) is useless because a junction isn't built from a motorway is utter bull.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Saying that an existing road (N77) is useless because a junction isn't built from a motorway is utter bull.

    It is because the N77 is meant to connect to the N8 and N7 via R434. i Know this because I use the N7 frequently. People who use the N7 Travel to Kilkenny and vice a versa by using the N7. This is why a national secondary road is connected to a national primary road. The N7 and N8 will downgraded and lose its status once the motorway is upgraded.


    The N77 was originally intended to be extended to the M7/M8 junvtion. The very same way the N65 was extended to the M6 when the N6 was downgraded and many other schemes. Another one to spring to mind is the N52 at Kilbeggan. but some goon in an bord plenalla doesnt understand what Loais looks like on a map and what kind of toads and where traffic generates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    mysterious wrote: »
    It was nothing to do with traffic going through ballacolla. this is ****ing bull****. The R434 was designed to connect the N7 with the N77 with Durrow and the N8 south thats the reason traffic uses this road. it's also the reason why people use the road to Durrow.

    The traffic using this road wouldnt change at all. The only thing thats changed in that corrupt ****ing an bord Plenala, is the government ensured that all interchanges are built to make traffic use the toll.

    Hey, mysterious, I think you have some valid points to make, and I'm not really saying this from the viewpoint of a mod, but more the viewpoint of me as a regular user:

    Could ya cut down on the ******** in every second post? It just ruins what might otherwise be good posts and makes you seem overly agressive.

    Let's keep things calm, we're adults here. There's ways to get across the passion in your argument without ****** and seeming agressive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,544 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Ah cmon, i was just getting out my popcorn there!

    FWIW i agree with the rooster here.

    BUCAW! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    mysterious wrote: »
    It is because the N77 is meant to connect to the N8 and N7 via R434.
    The R430, R435 and N62 all do this linking job. So whats so special about the R434? Is it because its the closest to the N77 in terms of distance?
    mysterious wrote: »
    i Know this because I use the N7 frequently. People who use the N7 Travel to Kilkenny and vice a versa by using the N7. This is why a national secondary road is connected to a national primary road. The N7 and N8 will downgraded and lose its status once the motorway is upgraded.

    So what? As a person who lives on the N7, I can't see why anyone that normally uses the N7 now to get to Kilkenny won't continue. They'll get off at Borris In Ossory and go along the old route. They aren't gonna continue along the motorway to the R434 overbridge and suddenly find they can't access it and have the world fall down around them.
    mysterious wrote: »
    The N77 was originally intended to be extended to the M7/M8 junvtion.

    That was never feasible. Continuing to build that road from Durrow to the townland of Aghaboe where the M7/M8 junction is was never going to happen. Why would they extend that road by such a distance for the amount of traffic that may use it?
    mysterious wrote: »
    Another one to spring to mind is the N52 at Kilbeggan.
    The N52 does link to the M6. But since the M6 was crossing this road at Kilbeggan it only made sense to use this road as access to the town , and also give Tullamore access to and from the M6.

    I see your points and I think there isn't much access to the scheme (none in fact on the M7 between Portlaoise and Borris In Ossory), but giving access to the R434 from a motorway would mean people using this regional road more in toll-avoidance drives. This would increase traffic numbers on a road thats not capable of handling them. As it is, the old N7 and N8 are there if you don't want to pay the toll and this is much safer than the R434

    Regarding the N77, I think it possibly should be changed to bypass Durrow and link into the old N8 on the north side of the town. I believe most traffic travelling to Kilkenny will come from this side of the town at the moment, and this will continue once the M8 opens and people get off the M7 in Portlaoise and continue along the old N8.

    Also, there should be a junction at Cullahill. I don't see why they want you to drive to Urlingford before you can get on/off the M8. It can't be to dissuade people from using the toll as that wouldn't affect traffic in Cullahill (if your gonna avoid it, you'll pass through Cullahill/Durrow/Abbeyleix anyway)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The engineer assessing the EIS for the scheme in 2004 recommended that the application be rejected:
    CHAPTER 6 :CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

    6.1 The EIS produced was a comprehensive document, and, coupled with the evidence and answers to questions given at the Hearing a complete description of the project was given.

    6.2 The procedures followed were logical, generally well documented, and indicated a good emphasis on public consultation and interaction between specialist inputs.

    6.3 I consider that the major problems concerning the scheme are junction provision and the possibility that a further route could have been put forward for review.

    6.4 In relation to junction provision, I consider that for strategic reasons based primarily on the National Spatial Strategy 2002-2020 (NSS) as outlined in Section 1 of that document and particularly Section 3.8.1 in relation to linking corridors that the facility to effect all movements at the point of splitting of the M7/M8 should be provided. (Junctions Ref No 2 ,
    4 and 6 taken together))

    In relation to this interchange a form of junction facilitating this movement is indicated on Drawing C6078 which was circulated at the
    Hearing and which is attached. I consider that failure to provide for the full range of movements could mitigate against achievement of the objectives of the NSS while also causing additional traffic with significant negative impact to use a ‘ratrun’ type route through Ballacolla to rejoin the motorway [my emphasis].

    6.5 The failure to provide a grade separated interchange at the end point of the scheme would, in my opinion, have negative socio-economic impact on Cullahill and Durrow due to lack of access.(Junction Ref No.7) I conclude that, based on the EIS and evidence at the Hearing that at least a proportion of traffic with destinations in Durrow and Abbeyleix would exit the motorway at Grantstown (Junction Ref No 3) and this would impact negatively on Ballacolla and create undesirable traffic patterns on the link road off the R433 from Redhouse Cross Roads to Durrow. The absence of a junction means also that there would be a greatly reduced number of journeys within the study area in County Laois which could use the new scheme, e.g. Portlaoise to Cullahill which is 28 kms,
    could not use the motorway
    .

    6.6 Particularly in the context of a lesser level of access to the motorway than proposed up to the scheme review of August 2003, but not a direct result of that review, I am of the opinion that the choice of optimum or desirable maximum scheme length should not be a determining factor in relation to choosing a route with the least environmental impact. Therefore I consider that the absence of seeking to establish if a corridor which was further west before splitting while still keeping the objective of servicing Thurles and Cashel is a deficiency in the EIS. As stated in 4.2.7. above there is no positive indication that such a route exists.
    However, it would appear to be necessary to do so if there was a possibility that a shorter overall route would satisfy the scheme objectives. It would also be necessary given that relatively significant impacts are encountered on the chosen route particularly in relation to the effectiveness of mitigation measures for ecology and drainage which might be lessened on an alternative route.

    6.7 As I have made negative conclusions in relation to junctions and consideration of alternatives, detailed comments on proposed mitigation measures are not given in this report.

    6.8 For the above reasons I recommend refusal of approval of the Motorway Scheme made by Laois County Council by letter of 15th January 2004 and proposed Road Development for the reasons set out below [my emphasis]:

    1. The failure of the scheme to provide for all traffic movements between the proposed M7 and M8 at their point of divergence would be likely to lead to adverse environmental impacts caused by additional traffic using the regional road network in the vicinity of and through Ballacolla. The absence of this facility would also militate against the achievement of some of the objectives of the national Spatial Strategy 2002-2020, e.g. to support a better balance of activity and development between the regions and would limit the development potential of settlement centres in County Laois and in the area generally.

    2. The failure to provide a grade separated junction at the southern end of the scheme in the vicinity of Cullahill would result in negative socio economic impacts on the communities of Cullahill and Durrow. It would also be likely to lead to adverse environmental impacts caused by additional traffic using the regional and local road network in the vicinity of Ballacolla and Durrow. The failure to provide access to the motorway at this location would reduce the opportunity to divert traffic onto the motorway network and would be likely to lead to adverse environmental impacts from traffic using the regional and county road network which would otherwise have used the motorway.

    3. It is considered there has been inadequate evaluation of the possibility of combining the M7 and M8 for a longer distance than currently proposed and therefore it has not been adequately demonstrated that an alternative shorter route which would satisfy the scheme objectives at less cost and with less adverse effects on the environment is not possible.
    _______________
    Daniel O’Connor
    Engineer Gd I
    10th September 2004

    But the Board decided to approve the scheme notwithstanding the Inspector's concerns:
    In deciding not to accept the inspector’s recommendation to refuse approval of the proposed road development, the Board had regard to the provisions of the National Development Plan 2000-2006, the National Spatial Strategy 2002-2020 and the Laois County Development Plan 2000 as amended.

    In particular, the Board considered:

    (a) that the route selection had been properly carried out, with reasonable examination of alternatives;

    (b) that omission of a grade separated junction at Cullahill would not lead to unacceptable environmental impacts; and

    (c) that provision could be made in the future for all traffic movements between the proposed M7 and M8 at or near the point of divergence of the two routes.

    Whilst the Board shared the concerns of the inspector regarding the need to provide for the full range of traffic movements between the proposed M7 and M8, having regard to the considerations set out above, the Board considered that it would not be appropriate to refuse to approve the proposed road development, as this would entail disproportionate delay in this critical element of the national road network, the urgent improvement of which (to motorway/high quality dual carriageway standard), with a completion date of 2006, is set out in the National Development Plan [my emphasis].

    So, it seems that the Board thought that time was of the essence, and that to send the design team back to the drawing board would have meant that the scheme could not be delivered by 2006, the target year for completion. Pah! Is it fair to say, then, that they rushed a flawed scheme through needlessly, given that construction of any description didn't commence until the second half of 2007?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Furet wrote: »
    The engineer assessing the EIS for the scheme in 2004 recommended that the application be rejected:



    But the Board decided to approve the scheme notwithstanding the Inspector's concerns:



    So, it seems that the Board thought that time was of the essence, and that to send the design team back to the drawing board would have meant that the scheme could not be delivered by 2006, the target year for completion. Pah! Is it fair to say, then, that they rushed a flawed scheme through needlessly, given that construction of any description didn't commence until the second half of 2007?

    The Inspector probably never set foot in Laois, welcomes to todays world of paper plannners. Plan the world on a piece of paper.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    mysterious wrote: »
    The Inspector probably never set foot in Laois, welcomes to todays world of paper plannners. Plan the world on a piece of paper.

    Did you read the inspector's report? It remains to be seen how prescient it is, but he shared many of your concerns. That's why he recommended the scheme be rejected and redesigned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,544 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Any guesstimates as to when this will be finished?

    Will be great when opened for Traffic from Midlands to Kilkenny/Waterford freeing up Abbeyleix etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭ilovegermany


    Am i right in saying that the M7/M8 merge/diverge will be the exact same design as the M7/M9 merge/diverge just after Naas?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Am i right in saying that the M7/M8 merge/diverge will be the exact same design as the M7/M9 merge/diverge just after Naas?

    Yes, towards Dublin only .


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    As far as I know its the same design. Coming from Dublin you veer left for the M8, or carry on straight along the N7.

    Heading towards Dublin, the M8 passes under the M7 and rejoins it just up the road. Same design as the M7/M9 split


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ipodrocker


    so will the junction have a slip if ur going north on the m8 and you want to go west to the m7?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Here is a very crude drawing :D

    The blue lines represent the M7, while the red lines are the M8.

    Basically, the M7 will split into 4 lanes for a bit before 2 head for the M8, and 2 carry on along the M7


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    As an aside to this scheme, the surface on the N8 that it will bypass has gone to the dogs with the frost; nearly any patched pothole has had its patch crack up and get lifted out. Local reg's are doing slalom courses down the lane, I on the other hand got the crashing suspension and bone shaking instead!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Am i right in saying that the M7/M8 merge/diverge will be the exact same design as the M7/M9 merge/diverge just after Naas?

    I'd say it'll be more like the M4/M6 junction at Kinnegad. With two full lanes from the M8 to merge, not merging to one befre the merge like M9/M7


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    I'd say it'll be more like the M4/M6 junction at Kinnegad. With two full lanes from the M8 to merge, not merging to one befre the merge like M9/M7

    Its the same as the M7/M9.


This discussion has been closed.
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