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Nasty Accident

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    #32
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Thanks again for all the useful information and comments posted. The PIAB information provided by drcopernicus is particularly interesting.

    On the personal injury front, fortunately (and thanks mainly to the helmet), there are no breaks, just soft tissue damage, most of which will eventually sort itself out. I will probably have some permanent scarring following the skin graft and as a result of some of the severe abrasions I have suffered.

    I now have a clear view of my next steps. I will try and get some photos of the offending roadworks tomorrow. I already have a good idea of the costs of replacing damaged clothing/equipment. I still need to get my bike back to assess that for damage. I have had to give up a ticket for the men's final at Wimbledon later today as I do not feel fit enough to travel - it will be interesting trying to put a monetary value on this (and before anyone asks, I have already found someone to take my ticket!). I will get in touch with a solicitor specialising in personal injury claims on Monday to get legal advice on how to take this forward.


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    #33
    waitforme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭waitforme


    Hi, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

    You mention that you were cycling on the hard shoulder, not sure if this may invalidate any claim, anyone else know as they may say this is just for emergencies?


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    #34
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Sorry to hear of your accident OP.

    Not trying to argue your case, but will the council claim you shouldn't have been in the hard shoulder in the first place?

    I'm not saying that you weren't cycling in the incorrect place, I often cycle on hard shoulders on main roads. And I don't have links to legislation so I don't know the exact law

    But will a clever lawyer from the council shoot down any claim over this?
    Just something to think about


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    #35
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    mikemac wrote: »
    Sorry to hear of your accident OP.

    Not trying to argue your case, but will the council claim you shouldn't have been in the hard shoulder in the first place?

    I'm not saying that you weren't cycling in the incorrect place, I often cycle on hard shoulders on main roads. And I don't have links to legislation so I don't know the exact law

    But will a clever lawyer from the council shoot down any claim over this?
    Just something to think about

    Interesting point.

    I thought cyclists were encouraged to ride the hard shoulder, as this is supposed to be safer than being among fast-moving traffic on the main carriageway. Can't find any reference to this in the Rules of the Road though. I would have thought there is a requirement to maintain some standard of road surface on the hard shoulder as well as main carriageway.

    I will be speaking to a solicitor anyway, and they should be able to advise me. As I have said previously, personal injury compensation is not my main motive here. I would firstly like the local authority to accept its resposibility for maintaining a reasonable road ncluding hard shoulder) surface, I would then want compenation for damage to my clothes and equipment, and some compensation for my pain and suffering would certainly not go amiss.

    I also need top speak to the Garda if no-one else has reported the accident, as personal injury was involved (I am not sure if this has already been done, or even if they attended the scene). I will also ask them their position on whether cyclists are allowed, expected (or even required) to use the hard shoulder, when available.

    I will report back the respective views of the solicitor and Garda


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    #36
    Nietzschean
    Registered Users Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭Nietzschean


    waitforme wrote: »

    You mention that you were cycling on the hard shoulder, not sure if this may invalidate any claim, anyone else know as they may say this is just for emergencies?


    http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html

    would seem to suggest cycling there is fine


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    #37
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Beasty wrote: »

    I thought cyclists were encouraged to ride the hard shoulder, as this is supposed to be safer than being among fast-moving traffic on the main carriageway. Can't find any reference to this in the Rules of the Road though. I would have thought there is a requirement to maintain some standard of road surface on the hard shoulder as well as main carriageway.

    Just found reference to this in the Rules of the Road (Road Markings Section - page 60):

    A single broken yellow line along the side of the road:


    This road contains a hard shoulder, which is normally only for pedestrians and cyclists.

    If a driver wants to allow a vehicle behind them to overtake, they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as long as no pedestrians or cyclists are already using it and no junctions or entrances are nearby. Different rules exist for hard shoulders on motorways. See Section 11 for details.
    Hence I presume the local authority has a responsibilty to maintain hard shoulders to a standard suitable for cyclists and pedestrians



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    #38
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just found reference to this in the Rules of the Road (Road Markings Section - page 60):
    Problem with this is that the RoTR is a mixture of advice and legal interpretation. Use of the hard shoulder by any vehicle falls into the realm of advice. The law is that you must drive your vehicle (even a bicycle) on a roadway and that the boundary of the roadway is indicated by a broken yellow line (except motorways, where it's a continuous one).

    It's a typical Irish solution - make a law and then 'advise' people to break it, not being responsible for any idamage or injury then. A win/win for the councils.


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    #39
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,021 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Ah man, not the Assos! I hate it when that happens. I lost a garment last year that way.

    Skin heals, but the dead Assos just gets buried in the garden next to the cat.


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    #40
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Lumen wrote: »
    Ah man, not the Assos! I hate it when that happens. I lost a garment last year that way.

    Skin heals, but the dead Assos just gets buried in the garden next to the cat.

    It's a bit like Whacko Jacko - can't bury it until post mortem carried out (or Fingal County Council accept liability)


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    #41
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,021 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Beasty wrote: »
    It's a bit like Whacko Jacko - can't bury it until post mortem carried out (or Fingal County Council accept liability)

    Terrible stuff.

    You might consider posting pics of your injuries (but don't use inline images, just attachments). Tunney crashed into a bus recently and almost wrote off his face. I don't think he actually posted pics, but his tale was so graphic I bought myself a new helmet and ridiculously stylish (non-splintering) eyewear to match.

    On the upside, every injury is a new shopping opportunity.

    Hope you heal well and have (at worst) darkly seductive scars. When I met my wife I told her that my mole-removal wound was a bullet scar sustained in the Troubles. When I saw the look of gullible belief in her eyes I knew she was the woman for me.


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    #42
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    No pictures.

    Good point on the eyewear. I recently invested in some Adidas cycling specs with prescription insert. Unsurprisingly they were written off in the accident, but did not shatter, or contribute materially to my injuries, as they were made from plastic. If I had been wearing my normal titanium-framed glasses they could have inflicted more damage on my eye.

    Plenty more Assos gear in stock, so will await outcome of legal claim before splashing out on any more (although replacement specs are already on order).


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    #43
    alfalad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    Lumen wrote: »

    When I met my wife I told her that my mole-removal wound was a bullet scar sustained in the Troubles. When I saw the look of gullible belief in her eyes I knew she was the woman for me.

    Thats brilliant!!!


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    #44
    JD24
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭JD24


    I would suggest going to a Solicitor. County Councils are very quick to deny liability particularly when there is building works being carried out around the area. In fact if work of any kind over the years has taken place i.e. ESB, bord gais, any kind of work at all that invovled the road being dug up and relaid, then the County Council will take no responsibility. Responsibility will rest with the party who carried out the works.


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    #45
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just out of hospital following accident when commuting into work on Tuesday morning. Cannot remember what happened, but based on what I have been told and Garmin info I was on the hardshoulder on the R132 about 200m from the M1 roundabout travelling from Blakes Cross/Turvey when I hit poorly completed roadworks - it looks like a trench has been dug across the hardshoulder, but they have not flattened it when completing the roadwords. The work was done a few months ago, and the surface is very uneven.

    I've had a couple of wobbles on this bump before, but nothing serious. However this time I was travelling at 23mph when I hit it. An eyewitness indicated to someone else at the scene that I did a full 360 degree somersault, presumably still attached to the bike (my hands and lower body have suffered relatively little injury)

    I sustained heavy concussion and a nasty gash to the corner of my eye, which has required a skin graft. I also have badly grazed both forearms, and a shoulder, with numerous other cuts & bruises. The good news is I was wearing a helmet, otherwise I would certainly not be telling the tale today, and possibly would never have been able to.

    I presume this is something I need to speak to Fingal County Council about. Most importantly to get this very poor bit of road sorted out, and secondly to consider a claim both for damage to my property (not yet sure of bike damage, but I have shredded some high quality Assos gear) and my personal injuries. I would prefer not to go through a solicitor initially, but simply make my case. If I do not feel they are dealing adequately, then I would consider formal legal process. Does anyone have experience or advice on how I should approach this?

    Your accident happened last Tuesday?

    Were you on that road yesterday - a Focus, I think.

    I was the one desperately trying to hold your wheel before you punctured.


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    #46
    LeoD
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭LeoD


    How much money are you hoping to get off the Council? Did you ever consider telling the Council before your accident about the dodgy road works you had cycled over many times previously without falling off? Sorry but the "some compensation for my pain and suffering would certainly not go amiss" is the bit that gets me. Yeah the roads are a bit crap in this country and you fell off your bike but you cycled this route many times before and were aware of the state of the road. A bit sad to see so many posters shouting for solicitors/compo but hardly a surprise in this country these days. Keep it up and we'll see what effect public liability has on road racing/sportives in the future.


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    #47
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeoD wrote: »
    How much money are you hoping to get off the Council? Did you ever consider telling the Council before your accident about the dodgy road works you had cycled over many times previously without falling off? Sorry but the "some compensation for my pain and suffering would certainly not go amiss" is the bit that gets me. Yeah the roads are a bit crap in this country and you fell off your bike but you cycled this route many times before and were aware of the state of the road. A bit sad to see so many posters shouting for solicitors/compo but hardly a surprise in this country these days. Keep it up and we'll see what effect public liability has on road racing/sportives in the future.

    I cycle that stretch of road regularly and it's like Mogadishu - potholes, lumps of tarmac, rocks......you name it. And because of the works the hazards change regularly. If you were to complain to the council it would be a waste of time - however, a couple of decent claims against them might shake it up a bit.

    Also given the width of a road tyre it's possible to cycle a route repeatedy and avoid a hazard until the day you just pick the wrong line.........


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    #48
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Your accident happened last Tuesday?

    Were you on that road yesterday - a Focus, I think.
    Look at the dates on the thread, 03-07-2009. Not last Tuesday.


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    #49
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    blorg wrote: »
    Look at the dates on the thread, 03-07-2009. Not last Tuesday.

    Thanks.

    It was probably the guy I met yesterday, just his recovery wasn't as spectacular as I first thought.

    He mentioned having the accident, the grafts and a few other things that resonated when I read the thread.


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    #50
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    @LeoD- more than whether the council maintain a road properly I think it is an absolute disgrace how utility companies dig up roads left right and centre and then do NOT restore them... I would have no problem with someone claiming damages in the case where a utility has deliberately fecked up a road and not restored it (presumably as to restore it properly would cost them too much.) Maybe if more people claimed it would force them to fix the roads they feck up (for that matter it might encourage them to synchronise their digging up and share the cost of restoration.) Bottom line, if you dig up a road, you have to fix it (and clearly signpost the deformities until you do so.)

    I would not be claiming for a pot hole that arose through wear and tear...


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    #51
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Thanks.

    It was probably the guy I met yesterday, just his recovery wasn't as spectacular as I first thought.

    He mentioned having the accident, the grafts and a few other things that resonated when I read the thread.
    Yes it was me - the accident happened about 20 metres before the place I pulled up yesterday (first puncture in over two years of cycling Ireland's roads)

    Nice to meet you Jawgap - hopefully I will be able to give you a longer pull next time:)


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    #52
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    The main problem with that stretch is the amount of development that has gone on and the road has been dug up repeatedly. Maybe the council are planning to re-surface it once all the work is done, but in the mean time it's pretty atrocious - I hate coming up to it and try to get through as quick as possible.

    To go slightly off topic for a moment - a friend who works in Dublin City Council was telling me about the top notch system they developed for co-ordinating digging up roads in the city so that, for example, if the ESB were opening a hole then the other utitiies might use the opportunity to do work they had planned but was scheduled for another time.

    Anyway, the system fell flat on it's face. One utility refused point blank to have anything to do with it - Dublin City Council!!!! The water services people to be precise. You've got to love this country!


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    #53
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Beasty wrote: »
    Yes it was me - the accident happened about 20 metres before the place I pulled up yesterday (first puncture in over two years of cycling Ireland's roads)

    Nice to meet you Jawgap - hopefully I will be able to give you a longer pull next time:)

    Hopefully next time I'll be able to return the favour!


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    #54
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    LeoD wrote: »
    How much money are you hoping to get off the Council? Did you ever consider telling the Council before your accident about the dodgy road works you had cycled over many times previously without falling off? Sorry but the "some compensation for my pain and suffering would certainly not go amiss" is the bit that gets me. Yeah the roads are a bit crap in this country and you fell off your bike but you cycled this route many times before and were aware of the state of the road. A bit sad to see so many posters shouting for solicitors/compo but hardly a surprise in this country these days. Keep it up and we'll see what effect public liability has on road racing/sportives in the future.

    I will get whatever the Personal Injuries Board Assess - that is their function.

    I have been over that "lump in the road" many times, but on the day in question, because of the shadows, it was pretty invisible (and I have since taken photos in similar conditions which show this). What I had never appreciated was the tarmac in question had a large stone protruding from it (a centimetre or so), which was almost certainly my downfall.

    As Jawgap has said, there are stretches on that road that are generally a nightmare, and it would require complete resurfacing (which is not going to happen for some time) to sort it out, hence I would have considered it pointless raising the issue with the council (as I would have thought there were many more serious defects to dealt with first, and the hard shoulder is not likely to be a priority).


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    #55
    LeoD
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭LeoD


    @blorg - Yes it is a disgrace that utility companies in this country appear to actively look for newly laid roads/footpaths to dig up but I have come to the conclusion we are a nation of idiots so I can't see this changing anytime soon. I don't see endless lawsuits that will only result in reduced funding for things like road repairs being the answer.

    @Beasty, firstly let me say I'm glad you're okay after your spill - I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I don't know this road you speak of but it sounds like it's in a woeful state and definitely not a place to be doing 23mph which is fair old clip on a bike. I'm only saying that, as someone who was familiar with the poor condition of the road, you should maybe have adjusted your speed accordingly rather than blame someone else for your misfortune and seek financial recompense.


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    #56
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    @LeoD- if I dug a hole in the road and just left it there... and then someone fell into the hole, breaking their leg. I would be blameless, right?


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    #57
    LeoD
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭LeoD


    Of course you'd be blameless. Now if you dug a hole and placed wooden spikes inside it causing someone to impale themselves then I would have to hold you some bit responsible for their death/injuries. Sorry, did I completely miss the point you were making with my exagerated fictional scenario?


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    #58
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    LeoD wrote: »

    @Beasty, firstly let me say I'm glad you're okay after your spill - I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I don't know this road you speak of but it sounds like it's in a woeful state and definitely not a place to be doing 23mph which is fair old clip on a bike. I'm only saying that, as someone who was familiar with the poor condition of the road, you should maybe have adjusted your speed accordingly rather than blame someone else for your misfortune and seek financial recompense.

    The particular road in question is just coming up to the M1 roundabout, and it is fine there for a stretch of just under 1km or so, except for two bits of roadwork that were only done in the last 6 months or so, which only cover the hard shoulder. Although I had gone over this many times (as indicated I had a couple of "wobbles"), it is so difficult to see, I only typically remembered it when I went over it (although I definitely look out for it now). It is perfectly reasonable to cycle at that speed along that specific bit of hard shoulder, except for the two roadworks in question. I have no memory of the accident in question, but if I had spotted it, I would have cycled more carefully over the "obstruction".

    Ultimately this comes down to whether someone accepts fault in the road repair (and I think a lump of stone sticking out of the tarmac suggests this is not up to standard). If so, a compensation claim is entirely reasonable, given I am scarred for life, will have ongoing issues with some of my injuries, and have incurred costs as a result of the "accident". If not, then I will have no claim, and will get no compensation.

    I suspect the Council accept there will, as a matter of course, be a number of personal injury claims coming their way on an ongoing basis as a result of defective roads. They choose not to repair every bit of defective road because they know, statistically, that only a small number of them will result in claims. They basically weigh up the cost of claims against the cost of repairs, and act accordingly. Clearly if specific danger points are drawn to their attention, they are more likely to deal with that specific piece of road. But my accident could just have easily happened a kilometre further back (along the most atrocious bit of road identified by Jawgap), at much slower speed, where there is no hard shoulder, and I could then have been run-over by a juggernaught - I would suggest the Council would still be the one facing a claim.


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    #59
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    My point is, my digging a hole in the road is an action that creates a hazard, and one I would indeed be legally (and morally) responsible for. Your spike scenario would suggest intent to harm, and indeed would be judged more harshly, but intent to harm is not necessary for negligence.

    A road that has simply deteriorated through wear and tear without any party actively creating the hazard is a different matter and indeed the responsibility is on the road user in this case.

    Note in this case the party paying up will be the one that dug up the road; councils require utility companies digging up the road to indemnify them against liability for claims arising from the work (and indeed the utility must be insured against such claims.)


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    #60
    Pimp Ninja
    Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭Pimp Ninja


    Thank God you are OK!

    I think I witnessed this. I was driving the inside lane probably 600-700 meters behind you. It happened about half way between the Topaz and the M1 roundabout.

    What I thought I had first seen was a plastic bin bag being blown in a breeze after a car.
    Then about 3-5 cars in the traffic pulled into the hard shoulder, and a number of people got out.
    By the time I reached the site of the accident I could see you lying on the ground, trying to sit up, with blood running down your face.

    I could see that whatever had happened was serious, but I didnt see exactly what happened.
    I pulled in about 100 meters after where you were lying on the ground and called an ambulance. Once I had finished calling the ambulance I continued to work.


    I am very very happy that you are in one piece.


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    #61
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeoD wrote: »
    @blorg - Yes it is a disgrace that utility companies in this country appear to actively look for newly laid roads/footpaths to dig up but I have come to the conclusion we are a nation of idiots so I can't see this changing anytime soon. I don't see endless lawsuits that will only result in reduced funding for things like road repairs being the answer.

    /quote]

    No offence LeoD, but it doesn't work like that. Local Authorities don't sit on a pile of money and decide to spend it on road repairs on the basis of need - they spend it on the basis of who shouts the loudest.

    If enough residents complain to their local councillor about a pothole it gets fixed even if it's up the most obscure bohereen. This is a fairly significant route into the city with few residents, therefore who is going to agitate for it's improvement??

    There won't be enough residents or cyclists, but a couple of chunky personal injury claims will make them take notice - unfortunately that means someone has to have an accident.

    The other problem is that since the M1 opened this road has been relegated to "R" status and so it's left to the local authority to maintain it. To be honest it's in a complete state along significant portions of it's length (esp around where Beasty crashed and south of Balbriggan) and Fingal County Council are showing no signs of doing anything about it.


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