Libertas want work visas for Irish working in NI

O'Morris wrote: »

The free-movement of people between Ireland and Britain pre-dates the EU and so I would hope that we could work out a separate agreement with Britain to continue on with the current setup.

Haha, I stopped reading your nonsense there. Maybe we could work out an agreement with the EU thats lets good old Paddy go wherever he wants but keeps those nasty Eastern Europeans out.

As soon as Libertas started with this right-wing nonsense they were dead in the water. Contrary to popular delusion among the BNP-like anti-immigration crowd on Boards, the "silent majority" does not exist. Libertas will go the way of the National Platform - into oblivion. And good riddance.

View wrote:

Do you have any idea of the numbers that have left??

I don't.

View wrote:

Net migration is the issue here.

You're right, net migration is the issue. According to wikipedia, net migration into Ireland last year was 14 immigrants per 1000 people.

I'm hoping more foreigners will leave the country this year than will enter it but I'm not very optimistic. As we have both a very generous social welfare system and one of the highest minimum wages in Europe the pull factors drawing the east Europeans to Ireland are still very strong. Even if there are fewer jobs being created, they have still as much right to apply for any jobs that are put on the market.

The reality is that we don't have enough jobs for all of the unemployed and for the newcomers to fill. Our economy needs to get rid of people, not take
more people in. With the state of the nation's finances we just can't afford to support such a massive and growing immigrant population.

View wrote:

According to the PPS only 10K were for the new EU states

Only 10k? Do you know how many jobs have been created in our economy since the start of the year?

View wrote:

A good chunk of this would be babies born to these residents

I find that very hard to believe.

djpbarry wrote:

Considering Britons represent the largest immigrant group in this country

I don't think that's true any longer. The 2006 census is believed to have undercounted the number of eastern Europeans in the country. The census gave a figure of only around 65,000 but according to Connor Lenihan, the actual number of Polish people in the country could be closer to 200,000, a figure which is well above the figure for British people. If true that would mean the Poles are now the biggest ethnic minority in the state.

Even if the census found that British were the biggest immigrant group in the state the actual figure of British would be lower than the figure given because a large number of the people classed as British would be nationalists from the six counties.

djpbarry wrote:

I would have thought that restricting migration from the UK would have been top of your list of priorities,

Part of our country is under British rule and we have a large population of Irish people living and working in Britain. Similarly there is a large population of British people living and working and receiving welfare payments in Ireland. It would be in neither country's interests to restrict movement from one jurisdiction to the other.

The British are our ethnic cousins and we have a shared history which has meant that people have been moving between the two islands for centuries. The same could not be said of our relationship with the countries of eastern Europe.

djpbarry wrote:

given your (apparent) concern for unemployed people (a concern which is distinctly lacking in certain comments).

I have nothing but respect and sympathy for the unemployed in this country and I want us to do everything we can to help them out and help get back into employment. I thought it was obvious that my comment about self-respecting unemployed people was not meant to be taken seriously.

djpbarry wrote:

Still standing by the PPS numbers issued equals number of immigrants received, eh?

I still believe that most of the PPS numbers issued to foreign nationals are being issued to immigrants recently arrived in the country. I'm open to alternative explanations but I just don't find any of the explanations I've read so far very plausible.

djpbarry wrote:

So does that mean that 30,167 Irish people migrated to this country in the first four months of this year?

No, I think most of the 31,008 PPS numbers issued to Irish people were issued to Irish babies born in this country. I don't think the same could be said about the non-national figure because I don't think the foreigners are having that many babies. There are about 3.8 million native Irish people in the 26 counties compared with around 400-430 thousand non-nationals. Considering that the number of PPS numbers issued to both the foreigners and to Irish people from January to April are very nearly the same, if most of the PPS numbers issued to both the Irish and the foreigners are issued to their offspring then that would imply that a population of 400,000 is producing about the same number of babies during a period of 4 months as a population of 3.8 million. I find that very hard to believe especially when you consider that most eastern European countries have a lower birth rate than ours. As the non-national population is only a tenth of the total you would expect them to only produce a tenth of the number of babies as the natives.

CiaranC wrote:

As soon as Libertas started with this right-wing nonsense they were dead in the water.

On the contrary. I think the populist righ-ward slant that the party has taken will lead to huge increase in the number of votes they will receive in the European elections.

CiaranC wrote:

Contrary to popular delusion among the BNP-like anti-immigration crowd on Boards, the "silent majority" does not exist.

There's nothing delusional about it. The polls that have been carried out have shown that the majority of the population share my view that we need to have a more restrictive immigration policy.

djpbarry wrote:

Oh goodness no. You see, even if we stop all the foreigners getting in, as long as Irish people are still emigrating, then the non-Irish share of the population will increase (provided the rate of "Irish" emigration exceeds the "Irish" birth rate less the "Irish" death rate). Can't be havin' that now, can we? So we has to keep the foreigners out and pen the Irish in. Right O'Morris?

That's right djpbarry. I couldn't agree with you more. Making it more difficult for "Irish" people to emigrate to "other countries" might not be an altogether bad thing. If the rate at which "Irish" people are leaving "this country" is higher than the rate at which "foreigners", as you call them, are leaving then that will only compound the problem of our declining share of the population. This is why I find the argument that net emigration will offset the problem of immigration to be completely missing the mark. If most of the people emigrating are Irish while most of the people coming into the country are "foreigners", as you call them, then the problem is being made worse, not better.

The problem with immigration as far as I'm concerned is that it will completely alter the ethnic makeup of our country in the long-term. I don't want to see the percentage of the Irish population made up of indigenous Irish people fall below what it is already. We're already below 90% of the total after less than a decade of immigration. I don't want it to fall any further. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now.

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

If only there were some way to apply some sort of ethnic cleansing maybe!? :eek:

look how that worked out in Rwanda and the Balkans

funny how O'Morris hijacked the thread from a Libertas's moronic immigration "policy" discussion into a general immigration debate (as he often does whenever the I subject is touched)

O'Morris wrote: »

The British are our ethnic cousins and we have a shared history which has meant that people have been moving between the two islands for centuries. The same could not be said of our relationship with the countries of eastern Europe.

Well considering the Queen of Englands family comes from the Netherlands should England have a free movement agreement with them too?

And considering that the Benelux states and Germany/France are pretty ethnically linked should there be a free movement between those?

And considering that lots of people in Poland are probably descended from Imperialistic Germany (ex Danzig/Gdańsk) should Germany and Poland have free movement?

So someone has to simply go from Poland > Germany > Netherlands > England > Ireland.

Or is my hunch that the blatantly racist "ethnic" card can only be played when it suits you?

Nightwish wrote: »

Anyone know why Libertas are using a NI company for their postering? Would they need visas to work down here in the future?

while we at it lets pull out of the EU and erect trade barriers and tarrifs

BlitzKrieg wrote:

Did I miss something?

You've missed a few opinion polls showing that the majority of Irish people would rather we had a more restrictive immigration policy. The last poll I've seen indicates that only 27% of the population think we should continue on with our current policy. As your side is in the minority the onus is on you to bring the majority around to your view, not the other way around.

In this sense I think it's safe to say that Kevin Myers' team has taken a decisive lead.

nesf wrote:

There's no need to be baiting people with projections of your beliefs on the conveniently silent majority.

I'm not projecting my believes on anyone. I'm just alluding to the evidence showing that on immigration most Irish people would share my view that we need a more restrictive immigration policy. Can you point to any opinion poll which has found that most Irish people hold a different view? Because I'm not aware of any.

O'Morris wrote: »

I understand that this is a subject that arouses strong reactions in people and so I'm not going to bother pursuing it any further on this thread. I think the silent majority in this country share my views anyway and so I don't see the point in wasting energy to try to persuade a small unrepresentative minority to change their minds.

Lol, the famous silent majority.

So how is this silent majority going to manifest such strongly held beliefs politically? Where is the BNP style party here? Is it Libertas? If it is Libertas, I think you are in for a shock when you get the election results friend.

if Libertas were successful they would essentially deliver the European Parliament into Declan Ganley's hands

You've hit the nail on the head, that's exactly what he's doing. He could tear the EU apart from the inside out. It's very unlikely that Libertas will get any seats, but if they do it'd be bad. Very bad.

I never thought I'd say this, but what can we do besides voting against Libertas?

Libertas won't catch on

They don't have to catch on in Ireland. There's plenty of other countries for them to get their toe into.

And Ganley's business links aren't just with the UK, the US (and it's military contracts) plays a massive part in his history.

(Just musing aloud here) If Ganley's master plan is to dissolve the EU, that means a fragmented military policy, which means more countries will look to the US for weapons/aircraft etc. It also means that more countries will ally themselves with the US economically too. His ties with US companies mean he'll get better returns on his investments as business increases, and after that...

nesf wrote:

if you want to make the claim that they agree with you you need to provide the poll alluding to such.

I have provided the link to the poll earlier in the thread. This is the link to the poll that was published last September in the Irish Times showing that 66% of the population would prefer we had a more restrictive immigration policy.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0910/1220919678623.html

When asked about future policy, however, given the economic outlook, 66 per cent felt immigration policy should be made more restrictive.

This is in line with the results of a previous poll carried out in the aftermath of the Lisbon Treaty referendum that found that 59% believe there should be stricter limits on the number of foreigners coming to Ireland. It found that a majority of both the yes voters and the no voters held this view. The link to the article in the Sunday Business Post seems to be broken but the content of the article can be found at this link.
http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/06/poll-shows-majority-of-referendum.html

This weekend’s Red C/ The Sunday Business Post poll showed that 59 per cent of voters believe there should be stricter limits on the numbers of foreigners coming to Ireland while 37 per cent disagree.

CiaranC wrote:

Where is the BNP style party here? Is it Libertas?

I don't think so. I think they're a bit too middle-class and a bit too pan-European to have the kind of popular appeal among the tabloid-reading, labouring classes in this country. If there is going to be a BNP style party in this country I think it will probably come as a result of a left/right split in Sinn Fein. The demographic profile of the average Sinn Fein voter is very similar to the profile of the average BNP voter in England.

djpbarry wrote:

Fixed that for you.

It's over djpbarry. The debate has finished, the votes have been counted and my side has won.

peasant wrote:

In case anyone needed any further proof that Libertas do not have a policy other than getting the populistic vote for the votes sake.

If it wasn't for the fact that they're so badly in the polls (and with the Poles) I've no doubt that their policy on immigration would be completely different to the one they're now peddling.