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What do you think of the transport budget?

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  • 14-10-2008 5:29pm
    #1
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭


    So, what do you think of the budget set out for transport:

    This is what the budget website (http://www.budget.gov.ie) says:

    Gross Expenditure for the Department of Transport in 2009 is €3,613 million, a decrease of €160 million (€6 million Current and €154 million Capital) relative to the 2008 forecast outturn. The key policy measures and adjustments associated with these resources in 2009 and later years are as follows:-
    • capital expenditure of over €900 million is allocated to fund public transport infrastructure. This is about €70 million less than the amount made available in 2008, but it is sufficient for progress on a wide range of projects, including:
    • Luas extensions to Cherrywood, Docklands and Citywest
    • improved bus priority measures in Dublin and the regional cities
    • the completion of the Midleton rail line and phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor from Ennis to Athenry
    • the construction of the Kildare Route project and phase 1 of the Navan rail line
    • the continuation of Iarnród Éireann’s railway safety programme
    • the start of the Dublin city centre rail re-signalling programme
    • continued roll-out of new railcars on the intercity routes
    • planning and enabling works on Metro North, and
    • planning works for the DART Interconnector;
    • in addition, €338 million of current expenditure is provided for the operation of public transport services throughout the country. This is €6 million more than the 2008 provision.
    • capital expenditure of over €1.4 billion is being made available to the National Roads Authority. This allocation is €157 million less than in 2008, and while progress on some projects will necessarily have to slow down, key national routes will be delivered as planned, specifically:
    • the major inter urban roads connecting Dublin with the regional cities of Waterford, Galway, Limerick and Cork by end-2010;
    • the M50 upgrade;
    there will also be progress on other key national routes, including the Atlantic Road Corridor;
    • over €600 million is being made available to local authorities throughout the country for the upgrade and maintenance of regional and local roads;
    • capital expenditure of €10 million is provided for additional carbon reduction measures to target climate change initiatives in the transport sector;
    • as a start to the Government’s commitment to part-fund a dual carriageway road within Northern Ireland transforming access to the North West of the island, a capital provision of €13.5 million is being made available in 2009 towards the planning works for this project;
    • provision for Regional Airports is reduced by €13 million to €11 million in 2009. Annual provision for capital investment in the regional airports is decided according to estimates of likely drawdowns in the year for specific projects. This can vary from year to year;
    • overall, the reduced capital allocation for transport will require some rescheduling of projects. Such decisions will be taken by the Department of Transport and its agencies on a project-by-project basis, taking account of their assessment of priorities within the revised expenditure envelope;
    • the impact of the reduced current allocation is being spread across a number of areas and principally involves reduced expenditure on road maintenance.
    I've posted an attachment with the breakdown of costs from their PDF file...

    What do you think of the transport budget? 54 votes

    Relatively good...
    0% 0 votes
    Acceptable...
    27% 15 votes
    Not great...
    46% 25 votes
    Atrocious...
    25% 14 votes


«1

Comments

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    #2
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Acceptable I think. It could have been a gutting, but I dont think it is. Although a lot of what they mention is stuff thats already under construction, they say there will be progress on the Atlantic Corridor, (ie N18 schemes and N17 to Tuam), which we knew about anyway.

    So they dont seem to have been culled.

    IMO it could have been a lot worse, so lets be thankful ;)


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    #3
    lord lucan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    i was expecting worse tbh. so it's acceptable in my book.


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    #4
    1huge1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭1huge1


    I'm reasonably pleased, though curious about what there going to do with metro north, saying its still going to be planned etc just doesnt cut it for me.


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    #5
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    There was also some mention of a levy on parking provided for employees in "urban areas", a rate of €200 was mentioned. This is a good idea in general, especially if it clearly applies to TDs etc it can garner support for other measures. However a flat rate is ridiculous, inside the canals in Dublin where all parking is expensive and public transport is effective should be different from the outskirts of towns where parking is not generally charged for and where there may be no sign of public transport.


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    #6
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    pinch of salt obviously - it all depends on whether EU will allow a 6.5pc deficit to go forward or whether some cuts will fall post-budget. However, rail to Tuam is missing and so is Metrowest and LUAS Line F which is fine and might presage rethinks such as substitution of LUAS for metrowest since all it is is LRT anyway. The NRA cut is slightly deeper, at about 11-12%, than public transport which is 8-9%.

    No mention of where the money to refurb the 48 Mk3s mentioned on etenders.ie comes from but perhaps that's a different envelope or expected from Translink as a quid pro quo for the dual carriageway money - ditto removing speed restrictions from the Nenagh line rather than have stock needed elsewhere beetling along at 25mph on a roundabout path into Limerick.

    Hopefully we'll see stuff like Oranmore double track and Blarney in early 2010 with the aforementioned WRC projects etc. continuing to fall behind. My worry is that CIE property plays might not go ahead or realise the income they hoped, and that this will knock on to the share of project funds they were looked to for.


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    #7
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    ardmacha wrote: »
    However a flat rate is ridiculous, inside the canals in Dublin where all parking is expensive and public transport is effective should be different from the outskirts of towns where parking is not generally charged for and where there may be no sign of public transport.
    Exactly - it should have been assessed as a BIK with rates assessed to local market rates for a car park parking space. This will create zonal effects where a business with 100 parking spaces pays 20,000 and a similar business down the street pays 0. Will this levy be payable for guest spaces, loading bays? They are doing what all central governments love to do - push an unpopular tax on local government rather than giving them access to progressive taxation.


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    #8
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,967 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Jesus man I thought it was going to be worse. Nothing is cancelled specifically. Metro North and IC are still being prepared, but they aren't supposed to start until early 2010 anyway, so no change there.

    Loads of stuff listed which is already under construction - Luas, interurban motorways, etc. Basically they're saying they aren't going to cancel them,which they couldn't have done anyway. Yawn.

    The only 2 things which will start that we weren't sure about is Navan Phase 1 (hadn't heard anything about that in ages, it's supposed to start by the end of the year) and city centre resignalling (thought that was already underway).
    dowlingm wrote: »
    Hopefully we'll see stuff like Oranmore double track and Blarney in early 2010
    Isn't that all supposed to be ready by summer 2009?

    Sorry; one more edit. I notice that Luas BX and D seem to be missing??


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    #9
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I'm quite happy. The Dept of Transport website maintains that most planned projects will go ahead; Transport got off lightly.

    I feel bad because of more immediate concern is education etc., but long term, transport infrastructure is as essential, and good value is to be had now.

    Spongebob: if you're there, what do you make of this? I think the Atlantic Corridor will go ahead.

    But the absolute priority is rail and public transport in general. Metro, Interconnector, commuter rail projects, more busses and LUAS seem to be covered. Ergo, I'm happy.


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    #10
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭gjim


    This is not bad at all. I really feared the worst given that capital expenditure is the easiest politically to ax.


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    #11
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Lots of it has been cancelled.

    This evenings radio news ( either Newstalk or RTE) confirmed that

    1. N18 Gort-Athenry
    2. N11 Arklow-Rathnew
    3. N21 or N22 ( dunno) Castleisland Bypass
    4. N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton

    are all cancelled .

    At least the Galway Bypass was not mentioned or the N18 Gort Crusheen stretch .

    As for the N17 Tuam Road , that cannot possibly commence before 2015 at this rate , better hope that the Claregalway bypass is finished by 2011 then :(


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    #12
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Lots of it has been cancelled.

    This evenings radio news ( either Newstalk or RTE) confirmed that

    1. N18 Gort-Athenry
    2. N11 Arklow-Rathnew
    3. N21 or N22 ( dunno) Castleisland Bypass
    4. N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton

    are all cancelled .

    At least the Galway Bypass was not mentioned or the N18 Gort Crusheen stretch .

    As for the N17 Tuam Road , that cannot possibly commence before 2015 at this rate , better hope that the Claregalway bypass is finished by 2011 then :(

    Interesting. No mention of a DOOR either. Roads-wise, Galway to Cork is more important that a Castleisland Bypass.


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    #13
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    In the area of roads funding - virtually all of the national road Exchequer provision for 2009 is already contractually committed to the delivery of the projects on the Major Inter Urban routes. The NRA expects that six major projects, totalling 143 km of dual carriageway road, will open to traffic between now and the end of 2009. These are:
    • The N4 Lucan By Pass Upgrade
    • The N6 Athlone to Ballinasloe
    • The N7 Nenagh to Limerick
    • The N8 Cullahill to Cashel
    • The N8 Fermoy to Mitchelstown, and
    • The N9 Waterford to Knocktopher.

    Well, here's what I think for 2009:

    M8 - Cullahill - Cashel - 40 km - Q4 2008
    M8 - Fermoy - Mitchelstown - 16 km - Q2 2009
    M7 - Nenagh - Limerick - 38 km - Q2 2009
    M9 - Waterford - Knocktopher - 24 km - Q3 2009
    M6 - Athlone - Ballinasloe - 20 km Q4 2009
    M3 - Clonee - Kells - 47 km - Q4 2009
    M25 - Waterford City Bypass - 23 km - Q4 2009

    I make that a good 208 km... (although I'm doubtful enough about the M25 - methinks I'm being a bit too hasty).

    As well as M50 Phase 1 and N4 Lucan By-pass upgrade.


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    #14
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Yes Bluntguy . These are all projects under construction with signed contracts and due to complete in or before 2010

    In 2009 only the N18 Gort-Crusheen will be started ( seemingly ) so what will the Motorway Construction budget be like in 2011 when the money is to be paid over , a pittance I should think ??


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    #15
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Well, here's what I think for 2009:

    M8 - Cullahill - Cashel - 40 km - Q4 2008
    M8 - Fermoy - Mitchelstown - 16 km - Q2 2009
    M7 - Nenagh - Limerick - 38 km - Q2 2009
    M9 - Waterford - Knocktopher - 24 km - Q3 2009
    M6 - Athlone - Ballinasloe - 20 km Q4 2009
    M3 - Clonee - Kells - 47 km - Q4 2009
    M25 - Waterford City Bypass - 23 km - Q4 2009

    I make that a good 208 km... (although I'm doubtful enough about the M25 - methinks I'm being a bit too hasty).

    As well as M50 Phase 1 and N4 Lucan By-pass upgrade.




    Question for those that know:

    Say the Cashel to Cullahill scheme comes in 6 months early and in budget, and the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme does likewise (plus a few other interurban projects); what becomes of the unspent money? Does it go back to Finance or does the NRA hold onto it?


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    #16
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Yes Bluntguy . These are all projects under construction with signed contracts and due to complete in or before 2010

    In 2009 only the N18 Gort-Crusheen will be started ( seemingly ) so what will the Motorway Construction budget be like in 2011 when the money is to be paid over , a pittance I should think ??

    But the roads budget is only down 7% on last year's figure. Can you explain where the allocated sum for 2009 will go? Bear in mind that many of those started projects are coming in before time and under budget. Where does that money go? I'm just wondering because you said the NRA's budget would be "filleted" by Finance, but it's only down by 7%. That still leaves the NRA with a lot of dosh.


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    #17
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Yes Bluntguy . These are all projects under construction with signed contracts and due to complete in or before 2010

    In 2009 only the N18 Gort-Crusheen will be started ( seemingly ) so what will the Motorway Construction budget be like in 2011 when the money is to be paid over , a pittance I should think ??

    Well, pretty bad I'd imagine...

    2009 and 2010 are going to be great years for motorway openings, so the government can make it look as though we're making "progress".

    Of course when the 405 km of motorway that is under construction at the moment is done, what will they use then to show they've made progress?

    Metro North?

    Interconnector?

    Metro West?

    All of those aren't due to be open until at LEAST 2014. So basically, after the inter-urbans are done, the government will have pretty much next to nothing to show for improvements in transport.


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    #18
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Furet wrote: »
    But the roads budget is only down 7% on last year's figure. Can you explain where the allocated sum for 2009 will go? Bear in mind that many of those started projects are coming in before time and under budget. Where does that money go? I'm just wondering because you said the NRA's budget would be "filleted" by Finance, but it's only down by 7%. That still leaves the NRA with a lot of dosh.

    I'm not sure about that. I don't think road projects are paid for in one go...

    They have to be continually financed. I'd imagine a large chunk of money is going toward keeping the road projects moving forward.

    But if that's the case, then surely there is room in the budget for at least two or three new schemes to start after some of the projects due to be completed next year have finished.


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    #19
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    dowlingm wrote: »
    No mention of where the money to refurb the 48 Mk3s mentioned on etenders.ie comes from but perhaps that's a different envelope or expected from Translink as a quid pro quo for the dual carriageway money - ditto removing speed restrictions from the Nenagh line rather than have stock needed elsewhere beetling along at 25mph on a roundabout path into Limerick.

    Hopefully we'll see stuff like Oranmore double track and Blarney in early 2010 with the aforementioned WRC projects etc. continuing to fall behind. My worry is that CIE property plays might not go ahead or realise the income they hoped, and that this will knock on to the share of project funds they were looked to for.

    Presumably the costs of the refurbishment of the six sets will be met from the proceeds from the sale of the remainder of the Mark 3 fleet and the proceeds from the scrapping of other coaches/locomotives.

    The Nenagh line is to be upgraded to 60mph, funded from the ongoing Railway Safety Programme as included in the budget, which is also funding the other lines.

    There are no plans to double Athenry-Galway, albeit something that would greatly facilitate improvements on the Dublin-Galway route as well as WRC services, so I'm not sure where that's coming from? What has been mentioned is extending the existing loop out of Galway for a short distance.


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    #20
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    KC61 wrote: »
    There are no plans to double Athenry-Galway, albeit something that would greatly facilitate improvements on the Dublin-Galway route as well as WRC services, so I'm not sure where that's coming from? What has been mentioned is extending the existing loop out of Galway for a short distance.
    Possibly a misunderstanding on my part - I guess Oranmore is as good as it gets then. It may be that they decide to shuttle the WRC service to Athenry and turn it back, relying on ramped up Athlone-Galway running to carry passengers the rest of the way?


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    #21
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Not as bad as it could have been!

    It seems likely that various planned major improvements by the NRA will be put on the long finger: dualling of the N4 from Mullingar to Longford; the northern part of the Atlantic Corridor (Galway to Letterkenny/Derry); Cork NRR; dualling of N28 (Cork - Ringaskiddy) and some N24 improvements.

    At least the MIU routes will be fully completed and it looks likely that the Galway - Limerick dual-carriageway will be completed.

    I'd also expect the M20 to continue since it'll be several years before construction can begin anyway.

    Assuming similar cuts in 2010 and 2011, some projects will be delayed by several years but I'm still optimistic that the NRA's programme will be achieved by 2015.

    At that stage, Ireland will have one of the best primary route networks in Europe.

    If we can follow that up with a similar level of improvements to the national secondary and regional road networks then we'll have one of the best road networks in the world!

    Chin up folks! It's nowhere near as bad as it could have been. :)


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    #22
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Luas BX and D seem to be missing??

    The Minister said today at the transport briefing BX won't be build until after Metro North is finished (the RPA on the other hand have recently been quoted saying BX would be built at the same time as the Metro).

    On Metro West and the Lucan Luas, to paraphrase, planning them keeps on going, the decision to go ahead or not doesn't have to be made yet.


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    #23
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    Acceptable. Was expecting much worse.

    However, I would worry about the Interrconector and Metro if this engineered world banking false crisis digs in deeper which I expect it will.

    Having Frank McDonald using the Irish Times to wage his personal crusade against standard gauge rail based public transport constantly could seriously damage the Metro North which would provide the perfect excuse to kill the Interconnector as well, as the excuse for the Interconnector not bring integrated would be made by the politicians.

    Hence why I consider Frank McDonald beyond a doubt the most dangerous entity among the media chattering classes for rail transport now and into the future. Frankie is far too thick and ignorant to realise that he is drowing the Interconnector along with his propganda war against the RPA.

    So the transport budget is acceptable to me, but far from optimistic. Too many outside influences which can destroy the metro and Interconnector projects.


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    #24
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    monument wrote: »
    The Minister said today at the transport briefing BX won't be build until after Metro North is finished (the RPA on the other hand have recently been quoted saying BX would be built at the same time as the Metro).

    On Metro West and the Lucan Luas, to paraphrase, planning them keeps on going, the decision to go ahead or not doesn't have to be made yet.

    Metro West might as well be chucked in the bin until they decide whether it's a metro or a luas.

    As for the Lucan Luas, the QBC will suffice for the moment.

    MN and Interconnector must be built on target.

    An approximate start-date for the M20 is needed by the end of next year.

    Various other road schemes must complete their planning stages so that they are ready to build without delay when the cash is available.


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    #25
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Furet wrote: »
    Question for those that know:

    Say the Cashel to Cullahill scheme comes in 6 months early and in budget, and the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme does likewise (plus a few other interurban projects); what becomes of the unspent money? Does it go back to Finance or does the NRA hold onto it?

    In my estimation, the payments would have to be accelerated, so I don't think the amount of money involved for any one project would change much. If the state agrees a fixed price with a contractor, that's the price that's paid regardless of whether the road concerned is behind or ahead of schedule, or whether it's under or over budget.

    Hope this helps!


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    #26
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,683 ✭✭✭jd


    I presume earliest commencement date for rathnew-arklow is 2010


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    #27
    jlang
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭jlang


    According to the radio news at 7pm, 6 road schemes are to be delayed including the Newlands Cross upgrade.


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    #28
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    jlang wrote: »
    According to the radio news at 7pm, 6 road schemes are to be delayed including the Newlands Cross upgrade.

    I mentioned that news segment earlier here.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57576635&postcount=11

    Can you remember or confirm any of the other projects explicitly listed for the record ??

    A ' delay' outlined in a 2009 budget briefing means 2010 earliest jd , yes !

    Bluntguy , further up this page , lists the MIU projects that will likely be completed in 2009 . Many are completing earlier than their 2010 target and must therefore be paid for in 2009 .

    Even if no projects start during 2008 or 2009 there still remains a contracted pipeline of about €1.5-€2bn of spending falling due in 2010 .

    These include M50 north and south segments, M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, M6 Galway - Ballinasloe , Limerick Tunnel, M7 east of Nenagh , M9 north of Carlow .

    No road projects are being constructed where monies will fall due in 2011 or therafter.

    The pipeline has been emptied after 2010 in effect .

    I very much doubt that any substantial money on the scale of recent years will be found for roads during the next 5 years unless someone can maybe point me to some pot of it I have somehow overlooked ???


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    #29
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I mentioned that news segment earlier here.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57576635&postcount=11

    Can you remember or confirm any of the other projects explicitly listed for the record ??

    A ' delay' outlined in a 2009 budget briefing means 2010 earliest jd , yes !

    Bluntguy , further up this page , lists the MIU projects that will likely be completed in 2009 . Many are completing earlier than their 2010 target and must therefore be paid for in 2009 .

    Even if no projects start during 2008 or 2009 there still remains a contracted pipeline of about €1.5-€2bn of spending falling due in 2010 .

    These include M50 north and south segments, M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, M6 Galway - Ballinasloe , Limerick Tunnel, M7 east of Nenagh , M9 north of Carlow .

    No road projects are being constructed where monies will fall due in 2011 or therafter.

    The pipeline has been emptied after 2010 in effect .

    I very much doubt that any substantial money on the scale of recent years will be found for roads during the next 5 years unless someone can maybe point me to some pot of it I have somehow overlooked ???

    The money has already been set aside for the projects under construction.

    It would be foolish and costly to abandon those projects in the middle of construction.

    And also, if there is a decrease in expenditure of 7% in transport, I don't see how that is going to bring all the under-construction schemes to a screaming halt.

    I do believe that all projects under construction will be completed.

    But I don't think any significant new road projects will be starting before 2011.


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    #30
    jlang
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭jlang


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Can you remember or confirm any of the other projects explicitly listed for the record ??

    I'm not sure I do remember correctly, but this is what I think I heard..

    N11 Rathnew-Arklow
    Castleisland Bypass
    Longford Bypass (I didn't know there was another one on the cards)
    Gort to somewhere (didn't catch which direction)
    N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton
    Newlands Cross

    I've looked around, but can't find a primary reference for this list, only the radio report.


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    #31
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Lots of it has been cancelled.

    This evenings radio news ( either Newstalk or RTE) confirmed that

    1. N18 Gort-Athenry
    2. N11 Arklow-Rathnew
    3. N21 or N22 ( dunno) Castleisland Bypass
    4. N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton

    are all cancelled .

    At least the Galway Bypass was not mentioned or the N18 Gort Crusheen stretch .

    As for the N17 Tuam Road , that cannot possibly commence before 2015 at this rate , better hope that the Claregalway bypass is finished by 2011 then :(

    Ah feck.


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