FCP Conference this week

Sparks · 08-05-2008 3:23pm

127,000 firearms certs in England and Wales (that's section one firearms - rifles and shotguns with magazines of over 2 shots, and airguns over 12 foot-lbs).

Good reason falls into two varieties - I'm in a club and target shoot; or; I shoot vermin/deer/whatever (and they check that you have the land and quarry and the rifle's suitable and so on).

Sparks · 08-05-2008 3:24pm

300 to 400,000 firearms held between those 127,000.

Half a million shotguns certs holders as well.

3-4000 visitors a year (he deals with 60% of these personally as he's in surrey and the NRA/NSRA/CPSA are all based there).

Sparks · 08-05-2008 3:27pm

You don't need to prove good reason for a shotgun licence in the UK, but it's not just walk in and buy it, you have to show you're a fit person (so when asked, you give your reason and you're usually taken at your word, but for section one stuff they check).

Section 5 are prohibited - handguns, military stuff, etc.
Has to be gotten through secretary of state (that's how they handle the pistols in the commonwealth games and olympics).

Sparks · 08-05-2008 3:33pm

Criteria for approval of clubs in the UK
1) Genuine club with constitution
2) gah, missed it
3) at least 10 members at all times
3) members of good character
5) must have liason officer with police
6) register of attendance kept (including gun used on visit)
7) ceasing to be a member is reported
8) must shoot every 12 months, if not, get reported
9) provide member details on application to join to police
10) can't join if ever refused an FAC
11) must have use of ranges for the firearms the members have
12) security must be satisfactory.
13) fraud earns you a lifetime ban
14) no day memberships (designated guest days do exist)
15) guessts must be 1-on-1 superviesed and list of guests have to be submitted to police in advance
16) members must be sponsored, and they must be probationary members for 3 months at least and given courses in safe handling
17) must never have more probationary members than full members
18) probation can be waived in certain cases (eg full member elsewhere)
19) nothing else that would make the club unsuitable for approval!

Home office do the approvals, police forward the application.
6 year approvals.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 3:33pm

And that's the end of that talk.

Quick tea break now, back soon.

bullets · 08-05-2008 3:49pm

WOW Thanks Sparks did not know you were going to provide
such great coverage. Job well done.

~B

bunny shooter · 08-05-2008 4:12pm

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:14pm

And back. (bullets, thank GB as well, I asked and he's fine for all this to be done)

"The search for a range construction standard" - John Guinane

New addition to the agenda (the canadian chap couldn't come due to family illness)

The Canadian standards are being officially adopted.

Why is a range constuction standard needed? Lots of ranges out there already authorised. But we're now in a new age of shooting in Ireland with new firearms available and we have to ensure public safety. (Plays youtube video of the .50cal barrett 100yd ricochet shot where shooter gets hit in head by bullet from barrett).
That kind of thing is not terribly good at all and without a standard, it's what we'll end up seeing here. It's not about aimed shots - it's about the edge cases where there's a ricochet or splashback or whatever, and there, where shooter competence is simply not a factor, the range design has to stop accidents.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:19pm

John is not the range inspector yet as the relevant section is not commenced yet.
Int'l best practise was to be adopted rather than reinvent the wheel.
Looked at south africa, USA, NZ, Australia, UK and then Canada.
The Canadian standard is not the JSP but looks just like it because best practise is best practise.

The standard had to be available to all.

When they officially asked to adopt the JSP document, they couldn't, it was an MOD document and it would have cost 57,000 sterling to licence a copy, so that ruled it out.

The canadian standard is free, it's been obtained two weeks ago, the canadians have given permission to use it and will assist in implementation and supporting data and such.

It will have to be modified in some ways, the FCP will be discussing this in detail.

The tenets of the system are:
subjetive assessment of the quantifiable aspects
objective assessment of the range operation
safe&reasonable assessment guidelines
transparent assessment factors
equitable application nationally

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:23pm

Everyone will have the standard document, debate over definitions is to be expected during certifications, but he'd prefer a cooperative process to get your licence, not a stand-off type affair.

The guidelines are one of the best in the world. International effort to produce. Based on probabilistic safety. 1 in a million safety margin. computer simulation and live fire radar validation to develop the models used. The models assume trained shooters - not the raw recruits the JSP expected, and so it's easier to do. Options in construction materials are available for range operators to choose from. Lots of technical illustrations. Covers all shooting activities for firearms, including stuff that doesn't come under the range inspectors remit at present like trap and skeet.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:27pm

FCP subgroup 2 - club and range structure (SSAI, DoJ, CAI, MNSCI, Garda HQ, Irish Deer Society) were discussing this.

almost ready to go for certification of ranges - authorisation of ranges has security aspects that the gardai have to deal with.

Next steps...
Next week, further examination of authorisation and certification process. Documents going into public domain on this then.
Adapt canadian document after changing idioms of speech to irish versions
commence relevant section of legislation
commence authorisation and certification procedures

New ranges will get priority in certification - extant ranges they're mostly happy with so won't need to rush, but they will need to be certified.

Most issues will be explored in more detail in workshop 2 tomorrow (rrpc is attending that, ask him, I'm in the troublemakers workshop (3)

)

packas · 08-05-2008 4:29pm

Sparks wrote: »

The canadian standard is free, it's been obtained two weeks ago, the canadians have given permission to use it and will assist in implementation and supporting data and such.

It will have to be modified in some ways, the FCP will be discussing this in detail.

This is where IPSA should have an input into range design as any range design should cater for action shooting (the Canadian spec. does). Afterall how can the FCP look at range design when no one on it is involved in IPSC shooting.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:30pm

David Scallan - Economic impact of game shooting in the ROI

This is a section of his PhD research (on habitat conservation).

Mostly looking at game and deer shooting. Funding came from the HAI initially and the NARGC at the moment.

- Changing role of agriculture at the moment, more towards post-production and diversification in farming.
- Less farmers, more reliance on non-farm income.
- Change in landscape - bigger farms, more intensive farming.
- emerging concern for conservation.

Grizzly 45 · 08-05-2008 4:34pm

Way to go Sparks.This is impressive and great real time stuff.10/10

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:34pm

Packas, I did ask - the answer wasn't fun, but it did leave an open door for the IPSA to get to the FCP table through the SSAI

- changing living patterns, with people moving from the city to the country.
Rural development programme 2007-13
What's the role of game shooters in rural Ireland?
Little recognition of field and country sports in the plan.

Two areas to examine that role in - economic and habitat conservation.
Complex area of study. Had to be both quantative and qualitative - surveys, interviews, etc.
1770 questionaires used.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:38pm

Over 5,000 questionaires were sent out.

Numbers involved -
27000 in 840 clubs in rough shooting
40 clubs in driven shooting
2500 deer shooters

Most responses from rough shooting, vermin shooting (much crossover there), and then wildfowlers. Average age was 43 (range from 16 to 80). Occupation very diverse. Average of 25 days a year spent shooting

Direct Economic impact:
Shooting sports generate 49.8 million euro
Rough shooting - 35.3 million
driven shoots - 10.2 million
deer shooting - 4.2 million

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:41pm

So average expenditure per person
Game - 1249
Deer - 1681

Other average spends -
Gun clubs - 1921 per club
Driven Shoots - 43,634 (but large range from 6000 up to six figures)

Most expense on firearms and kit; then gundogs; then everything else is about the same percentage.

Most of this money spent in Rural areas (49%) then country towns (34%)

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:45pm

Previous studies show this total has risen from 20 million in 1990 up to 50 million today.

Most deer shooters are saying the local populations of deer are either static or rising.

Figures also show a lot of conservation of habitats, more by driven shoots than gun clubs. Lots of organisers are planting game crops, and most landowners involved in game shooting were keeping habitats instead of clearing them for crops.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:48pm

Previous studies show massive impact of set-aside areas like this on boosting bird populations.

So all positive, so why no recognition?
- Contraversial nature
- Politically sensitive, and individuals in key positions can cause problems

Next steps are to have interviews with policy makers on this data.

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:48pm

No reason why we couldn't have a component in REPS that gun clubs could take advantage of.

Policy restructuring is required.
end of talk

Sparks · 08-05-2008 4:58pm

Discussion time

Wild Deer Association - observation - the speakers should be congratulated and the organisers, an event like this is a positive step, getting so many parties in one room (applause). More hunting groups should join FACE (eg, Deer Alliance). Deer associations and firearms associations need to work together.

Question on reloading to the UK speaker to comment on the UK system;
-reloading is acceptable in the UK. Large numbers of target shooters do Restrictions that came in recently came about because of lots of criminals using handloaded ammunition (that was loaded into things like brococks and the like) - components of ammunition are not ammunition in the UK until they are fully assembled and so weren't controlled.
- provided that you have a licence for a calibre, you should be able to buy the bits for reloading in that calibre - no need for a seperate reloading licence.

Des Crofton - on economic impact of game shooting - where was the licence revenue, was it included?
- it was included by the participants in their responses to the surveys (they were specifically asked for expenditure on licences). In boston 2 weeks ago, was asked where the licence money went (in boston it goes into habitat conservation).
Des - revenue from licencing is about 6 to 6.5 million by my estimate

Sparks · 08-05-2008 5:01pm

Deer alliance - observation - 2 players are not here today - wildlife service, and coillte. They really should be here. Also, why aren't we looking at the N.Ireland licencing model? We have a PSNI representative here and their licencing is a very workable model despite 30 years of extreme stress.

And now back to the youtube videos of the .577 round being shot by various inept people in Dubai...

Sparks · 08-05-2008 5:04pm

And that's it for the day. Not many questions being asked, mostly I think they're being saved for the workshops tomorrow.

cantona · 08-05-2008 5:26pm

Sparks wrote: »

Packas, I did ask - the answer wasn't fun, but it did leave an open door for the IPSA to get to the FCP table through the SSAI
.

Sparks, when your fingers get a very well deserved rest, can you clarify the above.

Thanks for all your excellent work today.

08-05-2008 5:52pm

Sparks wrote: »

And now back to the youtube videos of the .577 round being shot by various inept people in Dubai...

Apparently, that guy is one of the top ISSF clay shooters in the world.

But more importantly, good job with the reporting. I think the Irish Times have an opening...

Rovi · 08-05-2008 6:56pm

Just logging in real quick to add my thanks to Sparks for his sterling work in posting all this information here, and to confirm that (to the best of my recollection anyway) it's pretty much spot on for accuracy.

The main Q&A sessions are on tomorrow, and that'll be where the more pointed questions will be asked.

As regards my question on the 'One Man One Licence' thing, I get the impression that they're almost overwhelmed with operating the system as it is, and upgrading it to what most of us appear to consider the ideal (OMOL) is simply not feasible with the IT systems currently in place in the Gardai/DOJ.
We were told though, that if 'someone' was to put together a proposal on how such a system might work and be implemented, that it would certainly be considered for 'the future'.

That's it for now, unless I think of something else and can find a way of getting back in here.

Rosahane · 08-05-2008 7:02pm

Thanks and well done Sparks:cool:
Really appreciated:D

Bananaman · 08-05-2008 7:04pm

Great work, Sparks.

Same time, same channel, tomorrow

Grizzly 45 · 08-05-2008 7:13pm

Much appreciated Sparks& Rovi and all others there.:D

Gunter Mauser · 08-05-2008 7:29pm

Sparks wrote: »

And back. (bullets, thank GB as well, I asked and he's fine for all this to be done)

"The search for a range construction standard" - John Guinane

New addition to the agenda (the canadian chap couldn't come due to family illness)

The Canadian standards are being officially adopted.

Why is a range constuction standard needed? Lots of ranges out there already authorised. But we're now in a new age of shooting in Ireland with new firearms available and we have to ensure public safety. (Plays youtube video of the .50cal barrett 100yd ricochet shot where shooter gets hit in head by bullet from barrett).
That kind of thing is not terribly good at all and without a standard, it's what we'll end up seeing here. It's not about aimed shots - it's about the edge cases where there's a ricochet or splashback or whatever, and there, where shooter competence is simply not a factor, the range design has to stop accidents.

Does the Canadian Range regulations include behind the backstop clearance to cater for .50 cal barrets fired by the Canadian Military?. "IF SO" what is the clear zone distance required behind the backstop if the range does not have something like a natural mountain as part of the range layout,will this clearance be part of our regulations. Effective destructive range of the .50 cal well over 2000 yards. Doubt very much if we could ever afford the costs to cater for this caliber for civilian use here. Does the Canadian Military share ranges with Civilian Target shooters?.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

FCP Conference this week

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