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Replicas to be banned?

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  • 15-03-2007 10:57am
    #1
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭


    From the Indo today:
    Total ban on way for 'too realistic' replica guns

    THE Government plans to introduce a complete ban on replica guns in new laws aimed at cracking down on violent crime.

    The ban is expected to specifically target plastic weapons manufactured so that they are virtually identical to real firearms after gardai expressed repeated concerns.

    Even weapons experts admitted it was almost impossible to tell from a distance the difference between some plastic replicas and genuine, working firearms.

    Garda concerns have mounted over the increasing supply of replicas of such firearms as Kalashnikovs and Uzis and automatic pistols such as SIGs, Glocks and Walthers.

    Such replicas have been used in robberies - particularly in the Dublin area.

    Gardai are now worried such replica firearms could result in a tragedy.

    Government deputy chief whip Billy Kelleher said he shared garda concerns and planned to propose the replica weapon ban during a Dail debate on tough new anti-crime legislation.

    Mr Kelleher said he was hopeful such a ban could be included in a revised Criminal Justice Act.

    "There is a strong case for controls and potentially a total ban on the over-the-counter sale of such weapons," he said.

    "The type of weapons I am talking about are the plastic copies of real pistols and revolvers which, from a distance, are virtually impossible to tell apart from the real thing." The TD said such a ban would not affect the sale of toy weapons for children, which were more obviously fake.

    From what I can see, they're talking about airsoft toys (and the lads in the airsoft forum are justifiably worried), but knowing how such laws get drafted, I'd say anyone interested in collecting replicas of firearms in general (which includes a few of our posters) should be worried too.


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    #2
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    This sort of story is very familiar to me from my time living in England, loads of nice busy soundbites for politicians with elections coming up. My own take on this is that criminal misuse of these is already illegal. I'd be more worried about the ease with which criminals get hold of the real thing.

    Additionally, noone has ever been killed by a replica (that I'm aware of), whereas if replicas carry the same penalty as a real firearm, a scumbag might decide he might as well haev the real thing, because he'll be going down for either of them.

    This is all as somone who things replicas are silly toys.


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    #3
    babybundy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 536 ✭✭✭babybundy


    i think wat one of the things they are worried about is if someone turns and points one at an armed garda the garda could drop them and even tho the garda has done the right thing in a hostle situation civvies will say its only a replica and why was he shot dead hind sight is great but i'll be honest i'd do the same on escort and wont hesitate


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    #4
    Quillo
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭Quillo


    Could be the end of Airsoft ?


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    #5
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    There were rumours about this flying round from Gardai at the end of february according to some of the airsoft lads allright. Seems a lady garda getting shot in the face with an airsoft toy wasn't the best introduction for the sport to this country.


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    #6
    Clare gunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Clare gunner


    Additionally, noone has ever been killed by a replica (that I'm aware of), whereas if replicas carry the same penalty as a real firearm, a scumbag might decide he might as well haev the real thing, because he'll be going down for either of them.

    Apart from about a dozen people in England over the years who were shot by SO 19 and /or other armed coppers.One was even killed because he had a chair leg in a plastic bag.:eek: :eek: Now,if the UK is THAT trigger happy ,what will our lot be like????

    Frankly,this should have been seen coming,as this was going to be an easy mark on the shooting front for politicos and Gardai to score.
    Realistic copies of FA stuff,alot being bought by teenage "wiggas" to be "Da man" with their homies.Or being bought by "para military groups" training in military tactics[aka airsofters].So by rights two groups of people any hack could make a weeks worth of front page shock horror from.

    Well,folks this is where we put the euros where the gob is.I dont paticulary like airsoft and the idea behind it but I am emailing mr Kellerher and wasting a phone call to him to protest this idea. We are always going on about each group should support the other in shooting sports.Airsoft is under the shooting umbrella in Ireland ,tomrrow it could be YOUR pistols or shotguns!
    Make that call!Write that Email!


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    #7
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Frankly,this should have been seen coming
    It was. The need for an airsoft NGB got brought up in here first last december: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055024425
    Airsoft is under the shooting umbrella in Ireland
    No, it isn't, and they need it to remain that way. The single worst thing you could do to them CG is to link them to any firearms organisation. They desperately need to be seen as not using real firearms.


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    #8
    bullets
    Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    I never quite knew what the official existing law was when it came to replicas
    And was quite surprised when I saw the them being sold
    in Cork and Galway quite openly in shops.

    I remember being up
    in Eyre square shopping centre in Galway and handling a replica Colt 45
    that was for sale at a little stall there. Two Garda's walked right past me
    and looked at it as I had it in my hands and totally ignored me.
    (That was more surprising!!) The guy Mike I think was has name
    used to sell these some de-ativated rifles(with permission)
    and old Militeria as well as the usual crappy wallhangers
    that are supposedly swords.

    Down in Cork you can get a lovely what looks like a 3/4 scale
    Kalashnikov that you can rack the slide/pull the trigger and take the mag
    off and on. Nice Wall hanger. At one stage a few years back I was going
    to save for a replica FN-FAL but in the end never bothered as
    I could have picked up a real rifle and went shooting with it for the prices
    sellers were looking for.

    A lad I knew a few years back who worked for Securicor told me
    a story about how we was held up before and had a gun pointed
    at him. The trigger was pulled and he said the gun barrell exploded in the
    criminals hand. He reckoned it was a cheap die-cast replica that
    someone had tried to convert. Dunno what truth there was in the story
    as when I saw replicas the barrells were blocked there was no fireing pin
    or extractors in them.


    ~B


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    #9
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Apart from about a dozen people in England over the years who were shot by SO 19 and /or other armed coppers.One was even killed because he had a chair leg in a plastic bag. Now,if the UK is THAT trigger happy ,what will our lot be like????

    FFS, I'm sick of hearing about this chip on your shoulder about the police. Get over it and stop dragging it up all the time on threads here. Nothing whatsoever to do with the thread.


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    #10
    jaycee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    Not to labour the "I thought that might happen" line of logic..

    Heres where the "Banned by the look of it " thing starts to bite ..
    and this is just airsoft stuff.

    It says a lot about the difference between what you have by regulation, in writing , and believing that people in positions of power will be guided by the "Spirit of the thing " rather than the form of words used.

    Sad , but predictable...!


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    #11
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    and this is just airsoft stuff.
    I dunno - what's the difference between an airsoft toy and a deact or replica?


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    #12
    jaycee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    Sparks wrote:
    I dunno - what's the difference between an airsoft toy and a deact or replica?


    Ahh C'mon,, you know what they mean ..
    That's not in the "Spirit" of the regulations.... :rolleyes:


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    #13
    Clare gunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Clare gunner


    Sparks,
    I meant it more in the sense as that they are shooters,in the fact they use things that discharge projectiles to use a crude analogy.I always said when it comes to the crunch the great unwashed,politicos or cops are not going to be able or willing or want to make the finer differences between "guns".A gun is a gun is a gun to them.Doesnt matter that it fires plastic bbs or 5.56 ammo.It is a gun and they must be controlled as they are evilll.


    Civ
    Sorry if you think that way.But if the shoe fits and all that,.........and sorry to point out that you were misinformed,and it has quite alot to do with this thread btw,as this is one reason our lords and masters are going to ban these,as they obviously are worried our gardai wont know the difference between a real AK or an airsoft AK,and in that area I cant blame them either.

    Some stupid 17yr old kid waving around a Glock outside a chipper..Are you going to take the chance that it is real or an airsoft????
    People have been killed with airsoft related,weapons,toys or whatever.By police"elite" firearms units .. sorry if this is unpleasent to you but it is FACT!!

    Anyways,emailed mr Kellerher.Anyone else done so????
    Or shall we just bitch and nit pick amongst ourselves??:( :rolleyes:


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    #14
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I meant it more in the sense as that they are shooters
    But they're not. And tying us to them won't do either of us any good because frankly, neither of us are any good for the other. They don't want to be tied to "real guns" and we don't want to be tied to the idea of running about in military kit shooting at each other. It's just a Bad Idea (tm).


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    #15
    Vegeta
    Registered Users Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Sparks wrote:
    But they're not. And tying us to them won't do either of us any good because frankly, neither of us are any good for the other. They don't want to be tied to "real guns" and we don't want to be tied to the idea of running about in military kit shooting at each other. It's just a Bad Idea (tm).

    Who says we have to affiliate with them, we can still send e-mails and letters showing our support for airsoft without mentioning we are hunters and target shooters.

    Just an idea


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    #16
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    People have been killed with airsoft related,weapons,toys or whatever.By police"elite" firearms units .. sorry if this is unpleasent to you but it is FACT!!

    Nice effort, but your attempts at semantic wrangling are wasted, if you go back and read my post properly - you will see I said "killed by a replica". So unless the police firearms teams were using replicas, you're talking rubbish.

    Better luck next time.


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    #17
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    How would the airsoft sport be affected by the guns being made unrealistically - to look like toys, as it were? If they were made to look like those multicoloured long range water pistols there'd be nothing to worry about.

    I guess what I'm asking is, why do they have to be good looking repicas?


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    #18
    Clare gunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Clare gunner


    Thanks Veg,my sentiments exactly.

    So the dominoes start to fall...:rolleyes:


    Whats or whos next up on the alter to be scrificed???

    Civ,ok whatever.....
    Maybe you should have a wee google of the crimes comitted in gunfree Tokio [home of the airsoft gun] with converted airsofts to fire live ammo????Quite a few annually I belive,as real firearms are not available over there at all.Do belive a few deaths as well. Was mentioned in J David Truby's book Zips,pipes and plans. by Paladin Press.
    One springs too mind appx nine years ago of a nutty Tokio taxi cab driver,who went on a rampage with a converted airsoft to 22lr.Was printed in one of the Uk gun mags or the countryside mag,[the newspapery one??].Shot ,I think a half dozen people before offing himself.Sticks in the mind as it was just after the UK total gun ban.
    Dunno if they were dead or just injured,but I guess that doesnt count,and is rubbish as well...:rolleyes:

    Nipple,
    The idea has been tried before,and it is the reason all toy guns have the red cap on the barrel end.Trouble is spray paint,is readily available in black,and some crims have actually painted their real guns to look fake,to decive police officers.7out of 10 police officers questioned in the US,said they couldnt identify the red cap on the gun in a shootout situation. So to take the idea of a un/realistic looking airsoft further and into the psychology of police firearms training and what goes on in a shootout situation between the officer and the perp,the realism or unrealism of the gun goes along way down the list.Could explain this alot more but is well OT of board rules.


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    #19
    Quillo
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭Quillo


    How on earth can an airsoft toy be converted to take .22LR ?

    I've heard of blank firing replicas and starting pistols being converted by criminals, but Airsoft ?


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    #20
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Civ,ok whatever.....
    Maybe you should have a wee google of the crimes comitted in gunfree Tokio [home of the airsoft gun] with converted airsofts to fire live ammo????

    If it fires live ammo it's not a replica or an airsoft anymore. It's a live firearm. Same as if you make a gun from scratch, it's not the same as carrying a lump of pipe around.

    What are you trying to argue here?


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    #21
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Clare gunner wrote:
    So the dominoes start to fall...:rolleyes:
    Whats or whos next up on the alter to be scrificed???
    Oh don't even start. Every time I hear that crap of "lets all hang together" I want to beat my head against a wall. Haven't you noticed yet CG that not only does it not matter because there aren't enough of us even if we did band together, but also that we are a wide, diverse community with seperate and often conflicting needs? And that the only ones who say "lets all hang together" are often the very first ones to sell out another part of the "community" to save their own little patch of turf when they think noone's looking? And have you not noticed that the moment any shooter ever disagrees with something they say, they turn on them faster than you can say Zumbo.
    :mad:

    And the really aggravating thing is that this isn't news. Everyone in this sport/hobby/whatever with even the smallest degree of cop-on knows that this is not only how it is, but how it's always going to be because we're not a monolithic group, we're a diverse collection of real, adult people, not worker ants. But no-one ever stands up when someone spouts off this molon labe crap and tells the eejit saying it that they're going to get us all dipped in brown sticky stuff, and the end result is that we all lose out in the short, medium and long terms. :mad: :mad: :mad:


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    #22
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    CG you have a constant axe to grind with law enforcement which you drag in to as many threads and topics as you possibly can. Iv personaly knocked you on the head for it a number of times.

    Police shooting a criminal with a replica does not make them "trigger happy". It means that the criminal decided to give the illusion that they have a real firearm they should expect to be treated as if they have a real firearm.

    That or hire you to come along and have a chat with the criminal and take a close look at what ever it is they have, you willing to do that?


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    #23
    sidneyreilly
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭sidneyreilly


    If you have the tools and skills to convert an airsoft gun to a firearm then you can make a firearm from scratch!

    Edited there as unclear (see C.G.)


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    #24
    Clare gunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Clare gunner


    Great to see the ol ME FEIN spirt is alive and well.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    So I suppose we neednt be too upset then if your branch loses out on somthing????And you wont be moaning about it here either??? Or if ANY of the real gun folks lose somthing of their lot in the near or far future?

    great way of getting more people into a minority sport,ignore one that possibly would get people intrested in real firearms.I explained what I said and Veg summed it up nicely ,support them,not intregrate with them.

    Hey,if you dont want to do it ,dont.But dont be surprised then if when YOUR sector needs somthing ,the response is somwhat lacking.

    It's better to fight a battle along way form your doorstep than on it.And please CAN the stuff about a miniority being able to do nothing.Because the you are going on we might as well all bloddy sell our guns and take up stamp collecting.:mad: You want to Moralise your people, not DE moralise them for fuks sake! Have you got ONE positive suggestion on how to improve the current situation or give the average Irish shooter a glimmer of hope that we might get somthing from this??Apart from winning gold medals and lengthy and expensive time consuming strategies,that involve comittee meets,and what notthat will be too late to matter???

    I'm sure if air rifle was under threat,you would be most grateful for any bit of support in any shape or form?Rather than be kicked when you are going down???As I would,yet I have no inclination to ever shoot that disipline!Ditto I support fox hunting,yet have never ridden to hyounds,because I know that once they are gone game shooting is next.


    As for using the Zumbo arguement,bit faceious[sic] dont you think??

    Civ,
    i think you REALLY need to read the cases where the police shot these people.They were not criminals.One was a carpenter going home with the chair leg to be fixed,from his mate who was intrested in shooting. The other was a drunk.Hardly hardend criminals.I'll dig up the articles for you if you are intrested,[but you proably arent]
    And quite frankly,Civ belive it or not in my line of work I have had a three guns stuck in my face in my time,and it isnt pleasent,but it isnt anything novel to me.[Have you had any?]which might lead you to deduce I have some law enforcement knowledge,skills and understanding,and yes I will critise law enforcement for when they fuk up with firearms and related matters.As they would be the FIRST to point the finger at mere civillians like us.And I might add there have been plenty oftimes I have said here they have been sucessful.Hey,if you dont like my opinions,I'm sure there is an ignore poster button around somwhere,so why dont you use it???

    Sidney
    You are right,but dont you mean build a real gun?Not another airsoft?


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    #25
    Chopperdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Chopperdog


    Rew wrote:
    CG you have a constant axe to grind with law enforcement which you drag in to as many threads and topics as you possibly can. Iv personaly knocked you on the head for it a number of times.

    Police shooting a criminal with a replica does not make them "trigger happy". It means that the criminal decided to give the illusion that they have a real firearm they should expect to be treated as if they have a real firearm.


    +1.

    Well said Civdef, I am totally behind you on these thoughts.


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    #26
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Clare gunner wrote:
    Great to see the ol ME FEIN spirt is alive and well.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    "So you're saying my choice is Me Fein or Sinn Fein? "
    Great line to be giving the Minister, isn't it?
    So I suppose we neednt be too upset then if your branch loses out on somthing?
    Several of those who scream "all hang together" at the top of their lungs had no problem in shafting my branch when it looked like it'd get them somewhere, didn't they?
    And you wont be moaning about it here either?
    Of course I will, that's the nature of the situation. And you can be sure that they'll be arguing that it was for the greatest good for the greatest number, the old fallback phrase of their kind.
    Veg summed it up nicely ,support them,not intregrate with them.
    And you ignored what I told you - any link, no matter how tenous, to any shooting association right now would do neither group any good.
    You want to Moralise your people, not DE moralise them for fuks sake!
    "My People"?
    You think you're in a military unit? Or some sort of monolithic group?
    Have you forgotten that even without the DoJ and other external groups to worry about, we have the NRPAI rows, the FLAG row, the ICPSA/LCPSA lawsuits, the NARGC/FLAG shouting and the NARGC's internal lawsuits and arguments, the NRAI/LRRAI row and probably a dozen others I've forgotten about so far? Why do you persist in thinking that we all hang together? Why do you insist on a simplistic approach that's doomed to fail before it begins? Why don't you ever want to succeed for a change CG?
    Have you got ONE positive suggestion on how to improve the current situation
    No. I had fourteen and I gave them already, along with a lot of advice and help given to the airsoft and paintball groups over the past four or five months.
    Apart from winning gold medals and lengthy and expensive time consuming strategies,that involve comittee meets,and what notthat will be too late to matter???
    When we stood up five years ago at the NRPAI AGM and said "don't do this, it'll go sideways on us", we were derided for it. Noone listened. Now we're reaping the whirlwind and now you want us to give you solutions? Nice timing CG.


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    #27
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Chopperdog wrote:
    +1.

    Well said Civdef, I am totally behind you on these thoughts.

    *Cough* *Cough*


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    #28
    Clare gunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Clare gunner


    "Pendantic" surely is your middle name isnt it Sparks?????:rolleyes: :)

    "Your people" sorry,fellow shooters of the air rifle,air pistol and other firearms.
    Happy now?

    Me fein.No meaning the general attitude that you so aptly displayed in the inter tribal arguements out there in Irish shooter land. And then we all wonder why no one does support anything here.

    WHO sold out your side of the sport?Cos I am sure they could say the same about your side of the sport.As you pointed out, too much inbitching.

    How many of those 14 ideas did anyone carry thru?

    And this final point of five years ago and the wrong time....I keep asking,WHEN would have been the right time?That a minister of justice,cheif superintendants,Doj etc would ,gladly behove our simple wishes,and benignly grant us our restricted stuff back without a batting of an eye??
    2001,2007,2017,etc.When the 12 planets are in perfect aligement? Nothing to do with my timing Sparks.just an acceptance that you take an opportunity when it happens.And no point pussing about spilt beer.Situation is now,how do we move on...or better still how does the entire shooting community in Ireland ,lurch and stumble in some direction,argueing as it goes???


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    #29
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Me fein.No meaning the general attitude that you so aptly displayed in the inter tribal arguements out there in Irish shooter land.
    You missed the point completely there CG. Calling it the "I'm allright Jack" mindset is one thing, but you even mention something that sounds like Sinn Fein in relation to our sport and you just give those who'd do us harm more ammunition. That's what I mean by doing things correctly.
    WHO sold out your side of the sport?Cos I am sure they could say the same about your side of the sport.
    I'm sure they could say it, but they'd be lying.
    How many of those 14 ideas did anyone carry thru?
    Since lunctime today?
    I keep asking,WHEN would have been the right time?That a minister of justice,cheif superintendants,Doj etc would ,gladly behove our simple wishes,and benignly grant us our restricted stuff back without a batting of an eye?
    Five years ago we weren't saying that the timing wasn't right. We were saying that if we did what was then done, that we'd win in court and very, very shortly afterwards a new law would wind up on the books that was stricter and more oppressive than the one we were under at the time. And guess what?
    Situation is now,how do we move on
    For a start, by growing up rather rapidly and not doing things like stating in public that we're planning on breaking the law rather than obeying it when it's commenced.


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    #30
    astraboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭astraboy


    Airsoft guns, under the law at the moment are considered toys. I have two at home in a drawer. An issue arrises when they are used to threathen someone that believes it is a real weapon. A very simple solution is one employed on airsoft guns in the states, ensure all barrel tips are painted bright orange to distingust them from a real weapon. This way the guards can easily make a distinction and realize a 14/15 year old hanging around with his friends waving a "glock" is holding just a toy.

    As for the arguments with airsoft vs real weapons, we may be able to make a distinction but most people believe all firearms/paintball guns/airsoft to be the same. Some people on this forum look down in airsoft, I can't see why its a bit of fun and some people enjoy both airsoft and regular shooting. We need to help people make the distinction but also stand together before the Gov tries to get more votes coming up to an election and come down hard on shooters and sportsmen while trying to appear hard on crime. Its an easy ploy, announce a banning on something that has no effect on hardened criminals but you look good.

    It would of course be too much work to give the cops the resources they need to tackle the real problem, that is illegally held weapons. When was the last time a legally held weapon was used in a crime?


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    #31
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    We need to help people make the distinction but also stand together
    The latter will prevent the former...
    When was the last time a legally held weapon was used in a crime?
    The Nally/Ward shooting.


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