Replicas to be banned?

Sparks

From the Indo today:

Total ban on way for 'too realistic' replica guns

THE Government plans to introduce a complete ban on replica guns in new laws aimed at cracking down on violent crime.

The ban is expected to specifically target plastic weapons manufactured so that they are virtually identical to real firearms after gardai expressed repeated concerns.

Even weapons experts admitted it was almost impossible to tell from a distance the difference between some plastic replicas and genuine, working firearms.

Garda concerns have mounted over the increasing supply of replicas of such firearms as Kalashnikovs and Uzis and automatic pistols such as SIGs, Glocks and Walthers.

Such replicas have been used in robberies - particularly in the Dublin area.

Gardai are now worried such replica firearms could result in a tragedy.

Government deputy chief whip Billy Kelleher said he shared garda concerns and planned to propose the replica weapon ban during a Dail debate on tough new anti-crime legislation.

Mr Kelleher said he was hopeful such a ban could be included in a revised Criminal Justice Act.

"There is a strong case for controls and potentially a total ban on the over-the-counter sale of such weapons," he said.

"The type of weapons I am talking about are the plastic copies of real pistols and revolvers which, from a distance, are virtually impossible to tell apart from the real thing." The TD said such a ban would not affect the sale of toy weapons for children, which were more obviously fake.

From what I can see, they're talking about airsoft toys (and the lads in the airsoft forum are justifiably worried), but knowing how such laws get drafted, I'd say anyone interested in collecting replicas of firearms in general (which includes a few of our posters) should be worried too.

civdef

This sort of story is very familiar to me from my time living in England, loads of nice busy soundbites for politicians with elections coming up. My own take on this is that criminal misuse of these is already illegal. I'd be more worried about the ease with which criminals get hold of the real thing.

Additionally, noone has ever been killed by a replica (that I'm aware of), whereas if replicas carry the same penalty as a real firearm, a scumbag might decide he might as well haev the real thing, because he'll be going down for either of them.

This is all as somone who things replicas are silly toys.

babybundy

i think wat one of the things they are worried about is if someone turns and points one at an armed garda the garda could drop them and even tho the garda has done the right thing in a hostle situation civvies will say its only a replica and why was he shot dead hind sight is great but i'll be honest i'd do the same on escort and wont hesitate

Quillo

Could be the end of Airsoft ?

Sparks

There were rumours about this flying round from Gardai at the end of february according to some of the airsoft lads allright. Seems a lady garda getting shot in the face with an airsoft toy wasn't the best introduction for the sport to this country.

Clare gunner

Additionally, noone has ever been killed by a replica (that I'm aware of), whereas if replicas carry the same penalty as a real firearm, a scumbag might decide he might as well haev the real thing, because he'll be going down for either of them.

Apart from about a dozen people in England over the years who were shot by SO 19 and /or other armed coppers.One was even killed because he had a chair leg in a plastic bag.:eek: :eek: Now,if the UK is THAT trigger happy ,what will our lot be like????

Frankly,this should have been seen coming,as this was going to be an easy mark on the shooting front for politicos and Gardai to score.
Realistic copies of FA stuff,alot being bought by teenage "wiggas" to be "Da man" with their homies.Or being bought by "para military groups" training in military tactics[aka airsofters].So by rights two groups of people any hack could make a weeks worth of front page shock horror from.

Well,folks this is where we put the euros where the gob is.I dont paticulary like airsoft and the idea behind it but I am emailing mr Kellerher and wasting a phone call to him to protest this idea. We are always going on about each group should support the other in shooting sports.Airsoft is under the shooting umbrella in Ireland ,tomrrow it could be YOUR pistols or shotguns!
Make that call!Write that Email!

Sparks

Frankly,this should have been seen coming

It was. The need for an airsoft NGB got brought up in here first last december: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055024425

Airsoft is under the shooting umbrella in Ireland

No, it isn't, and they need it to remain that way. The single worst thing you could do to them CG is to link them to any firearms organisation. They desperately need to be seen as not using real firearms.

bullets

I never quite knew what the official existing law was when it came to replicas
And was quite surprised when I saw the them being sold
in Cork and Galway quite openly in shops.

I remember being up
in Eyre square shopping centre in Galway and handling a replica Colt 45
that was for sale at a little stall there. Two Garda's walked right past me
and looked at it as I had it in my hands and totally ignored me.
(That was more surprising!!) The guy Mike I think was has name
used to sell these some de-ativated rifles(with permission)
and old Militeria as well as the usual crappy wallhangers
that are supposedly swords.

Down in Cork you can get a lovely what looks like a 3/4 scale
Kalashnikov that you can rack the slide/pull the trigger and take the mag
off and on. Nice Wall hanger. At one stage a few years back I was going
to save for a replica FN-FAL but in the end never bothered as
I could have picked up a real rifle and went shooting with it for the prices
sellers were looking for.

A lad I knew a few years back who worked for Securicor told me
a story about how we was held up before and had a gun pointed
at him. The trigger was pulled and he said the gun barrell exploded in the
criminals hand. He reckoned it was a cheap die-cast replica that
someone had tried to convert. Dunno what truth there was in the story
as when I saw replicas the barrells were blocked there was no fireing pin
or extractors in them.


~B

civdef

Apart from about a dozen people in England over the years who were shot by SO 19 and /or other armed coppers.One was even killed because he had a chair leg in a plastic bag. Now,if the UK is THAT trigger happy ,what will our lot be like????

FFS, I'm sick of hearing about this chip on your shoulder about the police. Get over it and stop dragging it up all the time on threads here. Nothing whatsoever to do with the thread.

jaycee

Not to labour the "I thought that might happen" line of logic..

Heres where the "Banned by the look of it " thing starts to bite ..
and this is just airsoft stuff.

It says a lot about the difference between what you have by regulation, in writing , and believing that people in positions of power will be guided by the "Spirit of the thing " rather than the form of words used.

Sad , but predictable...!

Sparks

and this is just airsoft stuff.

I dunno - what's the difference between an airsoft toy and a deact or replica?

jaycee

Sparks wrote:

I dunno - what's the difference between an airsoft toy and a deact or replica?

Ahh C'mon,, you know what they mean ..
That's not in the "Spirit" of the regulations.... :rolleyes:

Clare gunner

Sparks,
I meant it more in the sense as that they are shooters,in the fact they use things that discharge projectiles to use a crude analogy.I always said when it comes to the crunch the great unwashed,politicos or cops are not going to be able or willing or want to make the finer differences between "guns".A gun is a gun is a gun to them.Doesnt matter that it fires plastic bbs or 5.56 ammo.It is a gun and they must be controlled as they are evilll.


Civ
Sorry if you think that way.But if the shoe fits and all that,.........and sorry to point out that you were misinformed,and it has quite alot to do with this thread btw,as this is one reason our lords and masters are going to ban these,as they obviously are worried our gardai wont know the difference between a real AK or an airsoft AK,and in that area I cant blame them either.

Some stupid 17yr old kid waving around a Glock outside a chipper..Are you going to take the chance that it is real or an airsoft????
People have been killed with airsoft related,weapons,toys or whatever.By police"elite" firearms units .. sorry if this is unpleasent to you but it is FACT!!

Anyways,emailed mr Kellerher.Anyone else done so????
Or shall we just bitch and nit pick amongst ourselves??:( :rolleyes:

Sparks

I meant it more in the sense as that they are shooters

But they're not. And tying us to them won't do either of us any good because frankly, neither of us are any good for the other. They don't want to be tied to "real guns" and we don't want to be tied to the idea of running about in military kit shooting at each other. It's just a Bad Idea (tm).

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

But they're not. And tying us to them won't do either of us any good because frankly, neither of us are any good for the other. They don't want to be tied to "real guns" and we don't want to be tied to the idea of running about in military kit shooting at each other. It's just a Bad Idea (tm).

Who says we have to affiliate with them, we can still send e-mails and letters showing our support for airsoft without mentioning we are hunters and target shooters.

Just an idea

civdef

People have been killed with airsoft related,weapons,toys or whatever.By police"elite" firearms units .. sorry if this is unpleasent to you but it is FACT!!

Nice effort, but your attempts at semantic wrangling are wasted, if you go back and read my post properly - you will see I said "killed by a replica". So unless the police firearms teams were using replicas, you're talking rubbish.

Better luck next time.

Mr. Presentable

How would the airsoft sport be affected by the guns being made unrealistically - to look like toys, as it were? If they were made to look like those multicoloured long range water pistols there'd be nothing to worry about.

I guess what I'm asking is, why do they have to be good looking repicas?

Clare gunner

Thanks Veg,my sentiments exactly.

So the dominoes start to fall...:rolleyes:


Whats or whos next up on the alter to be scrificed???

Civ,ok whatever.....
Maybe you should have a wee google of the crimes comitted in gunfree Tokio [home of the airsoft gun] with converted airsofts to fire live ammo????Quite a few annually I belive,as real firearms are not available over there at all.Do belive a few deaths as well. Was mentioned in J David Truby's book Zips,pipes and plans. by Paladin Press.
One springs too mind appx nine years ago of a nutty Tokio taxi cab driver,who went on a rampage with a converted airsoft to 22lr.Was printed in one of the Uk gun mags or the countryside mag,[the newspapery one??].Shot ,I think a half dozen people before offing himself.Sticks in the mind as it was just after the UK total gun ban.
Dunno if they were dead or just injured,but I guess that doesnt count,and is rubbish as well...:rolleyes:

Nipple,
The idea has been tried before,and it is the reason all toy guns have the red cap on the barrel end.Trouble is spray paint,is readily available in black,and some crims have actually painted their real guns to look fake,to decive police officers.7out of 10 police officers questioned in the US,said they couldnt identify the red cap on the gun in a shootout situation. So to take the idea of a un/realistic looking airsoft further and into the psychology of police firearms training and what goes on in a shootout situation between the officer and the perp,the realism or unrealism of the gun goes along way down the list.Could explain this alot more but is well OT of board rules.

Quillo

How on earth can an airsoft toy be converted to take .22LR ?

I've heard of blank firing replicas and starting pistols being converted by criminals, but Airsoft ?

civdef

Civ,ok whatever.....
Maybe you should have a wee google of the crimes comitted in gunfree Tokio [home of the airsoft gun] with converted airsofts to fire live ammo????

If it fires live ammo it's not a replica or an airsoft anymore. It's a live firearm. Same as if you make a gun from scratch, it's not the same as carrying a lump of pipe around.

What are you trying to argue here?

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

So the dominoes start to fall...:rolleyes:
Whats or whos next up on the alter to be scrificed???

Oh don't even start. Every time I hear that crap of "lets all hang together" I want to beat my head against a wall. Haven't you noticed yet CG that not only does it not matter because there aren't enough of us even if we did band together, but also that we are a wide, diverse community with seperate and often conflicting needs? And that the only ones who say "lets all hang together" are often the very first ones to sell out another part of the "community" to save their own little patch of turf when they think noone's looking? And have you not noticed that the moment any shooter ever disagrees with something they say, they turn on them faster than you can say Zumbo.
:mad:

And the really aggravating thing is that this isn't news. Everyone in this sport/hobby/whatever with even the smallest degree of cop-on knows that this is not only how it is, but how it's always going to be because we're not a monolithic group, we're a diverse collection of real, adult people, not worker ants. But no-one ever stands up when someone spouts off this molon labe crap and tells the eejit saying it that they're going to get us all dipped in brown sticky stuff, and the end result is that we all lose out in the short, medium and long terms. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Rew

CG you have a constant axe to grind with law enforcement which you drag in to as many threads and topics as you possibly can. Iv personaly knocked you on the head for it a number of times.

Police shooting a criminal with a replica does not make them "trigger happy". It means that the criminal decided to give the illusion that they have a real firearm they should expect to be treated as if they have a real firearm.

That or hire you to come along and have a chat with the criminal and take a close look at what ever it is they have, you willing to do that?

sidneyreilly

If you have the tools and skills to convert an airsoft gun to a firearm then you can make a firearm from scratch!

Edited there as unclear (see C.G.)

Clare gunner

Great to see the ol ME FEIN spirt is alive and well.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So I suppose we neednt be too upset then if your branch loses out on somthing????And you wont be moaning about it here either??? Or if ANY of the real gun folks lose somthing of their lot in the near or far future?

great way of getting more people into a minority sport,ignore one that possibly would get people intrested in real firearms.I explained what I said and Veg summed it up nicely ,support them,not intregrate with them.

Hey,if you dont want to do it ,dont.But dont be surprised then if when YOUR sector needs somthing ,the response is somwhat lacking.

It's better to fight a battle along way form your doorstep than on it.And please CAN the stuff about a miniority being able to do nothing.Because the you are going on we might as well all bloddy sell our guns and take up stamp collecting.:mad: You want to Moralise your people, not DE moralise them for fuks sake! Have you got ONE positive suggestion on how to improve the current situation or give the average Irish shooter a glimmer of hope that we might get somthing from this??Apart from winning gold medals and lengthy and expensive time consuming strategies,that involve comittee meets,and what notthat will be too late to matter???

I'm sure if air rifle was under threat,you would be most grateful for any bit of support in any shape or form?Rather than be kicked when you are going down???As I would,yet I have no inclination to ever shoot that disipline!Ditto I support fox hunting,yet have never ridden to hyounds,because I know that once they are gone game shooting is next.


As for using the Zumbo arguement,bit faceious[sic] dont you think??

Civ,
i think you REALLY need to read the cases where the police shot these people.They were not criminals.One was a carpenter going home with the chair leg to be fixed,from his mate who was intrested in shooting. The other was a drunk.Hardly hardend criminals.I'll dig up the articles for you if you are intrested,[but you proably arent]
And quite frankly,Civ belive it or not in my line of work I have had a three guns stuck in my face in my time,and it isnt pleasent,but it isnt anything novel to me.[Have you had any?]which might lead you to deduce I have some law enforcement knowledge,skills and understanding,and yes I will critise law enforcement for when they fuk up with firearms and related matters.As they would be the FIRST to point the finger at mere civillians like us.And I might add there have been plenty oftimes I have said here they have been sucessful.Hey,if you dont like my opinions,I'm sure there is an ignore poster button around somwhere,so why dont you use it???

Sidney
You are right,but dont you mean build a real gun?Not another airsoft?

Chopperdog

Rew wrote:

CG you have a constant axe to grind with law enforcement which you drag in to as many threads and topics as you possibly can. Iv personaly knocked you on the head for it a number of times.

Police shooting a criminal with a replica does not make them "trigger happy". It means that the criminal decided to give the illusion that they have a real firearm they should expect to be treated as if they have a real firearm.

+1.

Well said Civdef, I am totally behind you on these thoughts.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Great to see the ol ME FEIN spirt is alive and well.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

"So you're saying my choice is Me Fein or Sinn Fein? "
Great line to be giving the Minister, isn't it?

So I suppose we neednt be too upset then if your branch loses out on somthing?

Several of those who scream "all hang together" at the top of their lungs had no problem in shafting my branch when it looked like it'd get them somewhere, didn't they?

And you wont be moaning about it here either?

Of course I will, that's the nature of the situation. And you can be sure that they'll be arguing that it was for the greatest good for the greatest number, the old fallback phrase of their kind.

Veg summed it up nicely ,support them,not intregrate with them.

And you ignored what I told you - any link, no matter how tenous, to any shooting association right now would do neither group any good.

You want to Moralise your people, not DE moralise them for fuks sake!

"My People"?
You think you're in a military unit? Or some sort of monolithic group?
Have you forgotten that even without the DoJ and other external groups to worry about, we have the NRPAI rows, the FLAG row, the ICPSA/LCPSA lawsuits, the NARGC/FLAG shouting and the NARGC's internal lawsuits and arguments, the NRAI/LRRAI row and probably a dozen others I've forgotten about so far? Why do you persist in thinking that we all hang together? Why do you insist on a simplistic approach that's doomed to fail before it begins? Why don't you ever want to succeed for a change CG?

Have you got ONE positive suggestion on how to improve the current situation

No. I had fourteen and I gave them already, along with a lot of advice and help given to the airsoft and paintball groups over the past four or five months.

Apart from winning gold medals and lengthy and expensive time consuming strategies,that involve comittee meets,and what notthat will be too late to matter???

When we stood up five years ago at the NRPAI AGM and said "don't do this, it'll go sideways on us", we were derided for it. Noone listened. Now we're reaping the whirlwind and now you want us to give you solutions? Nice timing CG.

Rew

Chopperdog wrote:

+1.

Well said Civdef, I am totally behind you on these thoughts.

*Cough* *Cough*

Clare gunner

"Pendantic" surely is your middle name isnt it Sparks?????:rolleyes:

"Your people" sorry,fellow shooters of the air rifle,air pistol and other firearms.
Happy now?

Me fein.No meaning the general attitude that you so aptly displayed in the inter tribal arguements out there in Irish shooter land. And then we all wonder why no one does support anything here.

WHO sold out your side of the sport?Cos I am sure they could say the same about your side of the sport.As you pointed out, too much inbitching.

How many of those 14 ideas did anyone carry thru?

And this final point of five years ago and the wrong time....I keep asking,WHEN would have been the right time?That a minister of justice,cheif superintendants,Doj etc would ,gladly behove our simple wishes,and benignly grant us our restricted stuff back without a batting of an eye??
2001,2007,2017,etc.When the 12 planets are in perfect aligement? Nothing to do with my timing Sparks.just an acceptance that you take an opportunity when it happens.And no point pussing about spilt beer.Situation is now,how do we move on...or better still how does the entire shooting community in Ireland ,lurch and stumble in some direction,argueing as it goes???

Sparks

Me fein.No meaning the general attitude that you so aptly displayed in the inter tribal arguements out there in Irish shooter land.

You missed the point completely there CG. Calling it the "I'm allright Jack" mindset is one thing, but you even mention something that sounds like Sinn Fein in relation to our sport and you just give those who'd do us harm more ammunition. That's what I mean by doing things correctly.

WHO sold out your side of the sport?Cos I am sure they could say the same about your side of the sport.

I'm sure they could say it, but they'd be lying.

How many of those 14 ideas did anyone carry thru?

Since lunctime today?

I keep asking,WHEN would have been the right time?That a minister of justice,cheif superintendants,Doj etc would ,gladly behove our simple wishes,and benignly grant us our restricted stuff back without a batting of an eye?

Five years ago we weren't saying that the timing wasn't right. We were saying that if we did what was then done, that we'd win in court and very, very shortly afterwards a new law would wind up on the books that was stricter and more oppressive than the one we were under at the time. And guess what?

Situation is now,how do we move on

For a start, by growing up rather rapidly and not doing things like stating in public that we're planning on breaking the law rather than obeying it when it's commenced.

astraboy

Airsoft guns, under the law at the moment are considered toys. I have two at home in a drawer. An issue arrises when they are used to threathen someone that believes it is a real weapon. A very simple solution is one employed on airsoft guns in the states, ensure all barrel tips are painted bright orange to distingust them from a real weapon. This way the guards can easily make a distinction and realize a 14/15 year old hanging around with his friends waving a "glock" is holding just a toy.

As for the arguments with airsoft vs real weapons, we may be able to make a distinction but most people believe all firearms/paintball guns/airsoft to be the same. Some people on this forum look down in airsoft, I can't see why its a bit of fun and some people enjoy both airsoft and regular shooting. We need to help people make the distinction but also stand together before the Gov tries to get more votes coming up to an election and come down hard on shooters and sportsmen while trying to appear hard on crime. Its an easy ploy, announce a banning on something that has no effect on hardened criminals but you look good.

It would of course be too much work to give the cops the resources they need to tackle the real problem, that is illegally held weapons. When was the last time a legally held weapon was used in a crime?

Sparks

We need to help people make the distinction but also stand together

The latter will prevent the former...

When was the last time a legally held weapon was used in a crime?

The Nally/Ward shooting.

astraboy

Sparks wrote:

The Nally/Ward shooting.

Thats what I thought. I hate the idea of the Gov making a scapegoat out of regular law abiding shooters while criminals just keep on roaming the country with whatever weapon they choose. I think by going through the rather lengthy licensing process it would prove someone was serious about their shooting and not going to wave the weapon in the face of the local postmaster. Alas it appears our lords and masters can't make that distinction.......:mad:

civdef

Sparks - for the record, no crime was carried out in the Ward/Nally case with the firearm - gotta live with the court's verdict.

The barricade incident in Gort last year involved a legally held shotgun. I'm sure there have been low-level incidents since then.

Clarge Gunner,

which might lead you to deduce I have some law enforcement knowledge,skills and understanding

It doesn't.

Trojan911

Clare gunner wrote:

Apart from about a dozen people in England over the years who were shot by SO 19 and /or other armed coppers.One was even killed because he had a chair leg in a plastic bag.:eek: :eek: Now,if the UK is THAT trigger happy ,what will our lot be like????

Irrespective of people being shot for the reasons you state above there was reasonable & justifiable cause for the actions taken. The two officers (Insp & PC) were not charged with any offence for the shooting of Harry Stanley & were exonerated completely. Trigger happy the Met is not, highly professional they are. What an immature & irresponsible response.

TJ911...

Sparks

civdef wrote:

Sparks - for the record, no crime was carried out in the Ward/Nally case with the firearm - gotta live with the court's verdict.

Yes, I was more thinking of "when was the last trouble caused by a legally held firearm". There were others - there's been at least one shooting over a land dispute, for instance.

sidneyreilly

astraboy wrote:

A very simple solution is one employed on airsoft guns in the states, ensure all barrel tips are painted bright orange to distingust them from a real weapon. This way the guards can easily make a distinction and realize a 14/15 year old hanging around with his friends waving a "glock" is holding just a toy.

Dont know about that, very easy paint em black again or scrape off/out the plug. Alos wasnt there one instance in L.A. where criminals pianted the muzzles of their firearms bright orange to to make the cops think they had toys!

astraboy wrote:

Some people on this forum look down in airsoft, I can't see why its a bit of fun and some people enjoy both airsoft and regular shooting. We need to help people make the distinction but also stand together before the Gov tries to get more votes coming up to an election and come down hard on shooters and sportsmen while trying to appear hard on crime. Its an easy ploy, announce a banning on something that has no effect on hardened criminals but you look good.

Totally agree with you there though.

Clare gunner

Astra,
I pointed out a few posts back ,the red tip thing does not work.It is unidentifiable by police officers,it can be changed with a shot of black paint.Or a real one can be painted red,to give a false sense of security.

Sparks,
what?We cant discern in our native tounge between Me and Shinn???And this national Gaelic speak week? Doings things correctly?Thats nit picking.But fine,for those of a delicate disposition we will call it eff you i'm allright Jack syndrome:rolleyes:

So that brings me back again,maybe you would be better rephrasing this point that you belived the consequences would be wrong for shooting in Ireland in general,if at that time this case would have been followed up??
But realistically,if the mindset of sucessive govts was not to re issue from 1972 to post Good Friday plus ten years.What was to say it would be any different now,then, or in 2020???Nothing ,but a court challange would move them.Wether it was good or bad.Well,we just will have to wait and see.

God!you do love harping on old points dont you????:rolleyes:
If everyone acted on what they say they will do,we would be all in the nick.Oh growing up...hmmm...stop being a pendantic nit picker,and recognise a generalisation ,and that the world isnt total absolutes would be a great start for you.

Civ
Smarter now aint you?

Trojan911
Highly professional...Hmmm well the REAL professionals like the people who instruct the SO19 who are based in the UK.Like the SAS ,dont think them much good. Sunday Telegraph article Sept [?]2005.

Titled "Met firearms officers behaved like cowboys"
It was a pretty damming account ,on attitude,firearms handling,and skills.

Funny enough too,that the German SEK,GSG9,the French GIGN,the Dutch,the Belgians,have ASFIK have never shot anyone for carrying an airsoft,a chair leg or a banana[proably].Only seems to happen in the UK tho??
I see immature &irresponsible responses comments are the fodder here these days for opinions that some dont like.Sorry to gore your sacred oxen.But the Stats are against you. So19 has a kill bill on civves second to none.Met especially. Cyber shooters and a check of Uk civil liberties websites will tell you a story.
OOPPPSSS!!!! we are going into non sporting contrary to boards rules on topics law enforcement and RKBA which is naughty!
So we will best get back on topic lest the Mods lock the thread .[Surprised they havent already!:eek: ]

vlmaxis

If some clown is stupid enough to point any thing that remotely looks like a gun at a cop, they deserve to be shot. The problem all stems back to all of us law abiding citizens being treated like criminals and the proof of that is in the CJB. We pay approximately 7.m in firearm certs each year and we get nothing but hardship for it, Gaa members don't contribute this to their sport straight from their pockets and they are treated like royalty. Somethings wrong.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

what?We cant discern in our native tounge between Me and Shinn?

CG, show a little more common sense would you?

So that brings me back again,maybe you would be better rephrasing this point that you belived the consequences would be wrong for shooting in Ireland in general,if at that time this case would have been followed up??

Correct. And that's what's happened. We've had a brief moment in the sun while the Minister drafted new laws, and now we're looking at a much bleaker time ahead.

Well,we just will have to wait and see.

No, we won't. Anyone with any cop-on has seen the CJA and the writing on the wall therein. Or haven't you noticed the change in language at the public meetings from "we said" to "they said" in relation to the DoJ as people try to distance themselves from their roles in the negotiation phase of the CJB?

God!you do love harping on old points dont you????:rolleyes:

Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

OOPPPSSS!!!! we are going into non sporting contrary to boards rules on topics law enforcement and RKBA which is naughty!

Indeed.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

CG, show a little more common sense would you?

Humour,sense of; Get one!!!!:D Very helpful in life.:D

Correct. And that's what's happened. We've had a brief moment in the sun while the Minister drafted new laws, and now we're looking at a much bleaker time ahead.

Whats this "we" and "they" bit???? Who EXACTLY are you referring to in the alaphabet soup of organisations we have here???

And the past is another country!

kdouglas

(Hi, im Keith, and im an airsofter)

Clare gunner wrote:

Civ,ok whatever.....
Maybe you should have a wee google of the crimes comitted in gunfree Tokio [home of the airsoft gun] with converted airsofts to fire live ammo????Quite a few annually I belive,as real firearms are not available over there at all.Do belive a few deaths as well. Was mentioned in J David Truby's book Zips,pipes and plans. by Paladin Press.
One springs too mind appx nine years ago of a nutty Tokio taxi cab driver,who went on a rampage with a converted airsoft to 22lr.Was printed in one of the Uk gun mags or the countryside mag,[the newspapery one??].Shot ,I think a half dozen people before offing himself.Sticks in the mind as it was just after the UK total gun ban.

maybe you should have a wee google yourself? anything i can find on google relating to converting airsoft or crimes in tokyo all state that it is not possible to convert an airsoft to fire live ammunition. i havent read zips pipes and pens but i cant find any information on google relating to it and airsoft and surely if this book talks about converting an airsoft to fire live ammo someone would have mentioned it on the web before???

have you ever even SEEN an airsoft gun? do you even have the slightest idea of how they operate? there is NO WAY you could feasibly convert an airsoft to fire live ammunition. as has been stated, you may as well just build a gun from scratch, because that's what you'd be doing, you might be putting the casing from an airsoft over it when your finished, but none of the internal components could be used.

this is exactly the kind of attitude amongst the public that we (airsofters) are up against, they need to be educated, that despite looking like real weapons, these are not, they are harmless and there are NO recorded deaths related to airsoft (aside from the occasional stupid bastard that points the thing at police with real steel weapons and gets shot)

</rant>

Clare gunner

sigh ...sorry I got the title wrong..slightly.But it is the CONTENTS not the title we need to worry about.And NO it does NOT cover converting airsofts to live fire.Basically the book is a study on improvised weapons where they occur in the World...yes Ireland gets a mention as well for improv weaponary.Dont bother running out to get acopy...there are no detailed plans in there for anyone to copy.So we can all sleep safley in our beds.:rolleyes:
The author points to the "rumour" pointed out in wikipedia that Japanese triads converted them to fire live ammo.

Considering that [1] this book was written in the mid/ late 80s,when airsoft was just starting,or even heard of,and the 1st gen things had more metal in them,I remember a shop that did martial arts eq in Dublin in Sth Gt Georges St ???[now long gone]had them for sale for a VERY breif while 20 years ago.And they felt a lot more like a real gun than a toy that is the std nowadays. So it is quite possible or proable that some of the early 1st Gen mods were easily converted.Or as you said,somone coverd their zip gun wit an airsoft cladding.Fact is;one or more were used in crime in Japan a decade ago.

Look,all I am pointing out is this story is knocking around for the last 20 years,and you need the facts as to what it was about so if it ever came up you can say whats what.Plus it was used as a point to prove that what somone said was not factually correct,that people had been injured or killed with converted airsofts 15 +- years ago. Quit making out that I am trying to make out it is easy or it is nonsense that no one was killed involving airsofts,wether converted or thru their own stupidity.

And you are right,the current crop could never be converted to anything. Would be more inclined to take the accessories off them which are genuine and use them on a real gun.:D
Yep have used them [ Toko Mauri] well,if thats your thing playing at soilders...or whatever...I wont say you nay. But it isnt my thing.
But I wont spit on your back either.

kdouglas

was just reading an article about that very rumour yesterday on wikipedia actually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft_guns#Misconceptions wrote:

There are rumours, driven by the realistic look of some airsoft guns, that they can be modified to kill. There are also rumors that the Japanese Yakuza and Chinese Triad converted airsoft guns to fire real pistol cartridges, but are limited to a single shot. It is, however, impossible to convert or modify any airsoft replica to fire a real bullet due to the materials (mostly plastic), internal design (battery/gas powered) and construction that differ completely from real firearms. Nevertheless, because of this misconception, some countries' current gun laws list airsoft guns as firearms.

so until you can show me a credible source which states that converted airsofts were in fact used in crimes in tokyo, then it's nothing more than an urban myth and anyone who raises that issue will be told so.

alot of airsofts are still full metal, but they could no more be converted to fire real ammo than the plastic ones could.

nice to know you have at least tried them out before deciding your opinion on airsoft, fair enough, it's not your thing, but those of use in the airsoft forum would hate to see it get banned under replica weapons because of politicians talking out of their ar*e and trying to earn votes for the next election.

Bananaman

At the end of the day - any attempt made to introduce any sort of a ban on anything remotely related to firearms is simply a PR exercise.

Gougers do not care if something is banned - they are already banned form having guns in post offices - it doesn't stop them. Enforcement of current laws is the approach that is required, not diluting the Gardai's ability to do so by introducing legislation that distracts them from the real work at hand.

I agree with Sparks earlier comments - The great unwashed, having little or no experience of them, have an image in their heads of what AirSoft, Paintball, Target shooting and Hunting are.

I would "assume" or "guess" that a lot of politicians would have the same views - again due to either a lack of experience of getting the wrong impression when people have a discussion about one and complicate it with comments about the others.

<these are my own sylised opinions and are only for example sake - I do not wish to refine these with discussion>

----

The Impression of Paintball is a stag party renting kit and shooting the **** out of each other in a wood.

The Impression of Airsoft is a gang of mates (who invariably have spent a fair bit of change on kit) shooting the **** out of each other in a wood.

The Impression of Hunters is guys in tweed caps, a red setter and a broken shotgun over the arm out for a walk. Taking a pheasant once in a while.

The Impression of Target shooting is very calm people at the olympics - shooting plaving cards at half a mile with pellet guns. Most people think they wear skis while doing this.

---

Now as you can see these things have very little in Common - Airsoft and Paintball are in the same bracket - a bit of Craic.

Hunting is what you do if you like a bit of Rabbit in the stew and like to get out of the house on Stephens day before the wran turn up.

Target shooting is what people in shooting clubs do.

---

These should not be mixed up, as for the general public, and rightly so, hunting and target shooting is not a "bit of craic" whereas Airsoft and Paintball are.

---

As to the issue of the Gardai not liking people pointing Airsoft guns at them and worrying about engaging people that only had replicas.

vlmaxis said it right earlier.

The Gardai do not have the luxury to find out - if armed Gardai are deployed to a situation there is a legitimate reason fior it.

If anyone points anything at them (stick a brush handle out a window even) they are putting themselves in harms way as from the Garda point of view you have just put him/her in harms way and they will react.

---

In my opinion - Airsoft is harmless and is a toy - it is also great craic - restricting it in any way will not have any effect other than to create column inches for politicians in the run up to an election.

Vegeta

wikipedia cannot be used as factual evidence, I could go in and edit it and say the complete opposite

Have you not seen the many many prank pages on wikipedia

That page is also written about the modern day airsoft weapons. Do you own a 20 year old airsoft weapon? Have you handled one? Do you know for a fact that every airsoft weapon ever made, was made of the same materials as they are today?

As an airsoft community don't say it cant be done, someone will go away and do it just to prove you wrong. They may use the action from a real firearm and an airsoft stock and/or accesories but the media would have a field day with it.

The gardai said the same about age cards when they were released, "they cant be faked" and within a day they were shown a fake one.

I am all for airsoft and would love to try it, but don't have an attitude of "it cant be done" because that is looking for trouble

kdouglas

ill definitely agree there, wikipedia is not the most reliable source in the world. but if you were to go and edit it to say the opposite, it would be seen and changed back.

nothing is impossible, but let's face it, if you were to "modify" an airsoft to fire live ammunition, you would basically have to build a real gun and then stick an airsoft case over it, which is not really a modification, but simple a case stuck over a home made gun.

Vegeta

kdouglas wrote:

ill definitely agree there, wikipedia is not the most reliable source in the world. but if you were to go and edit it to say the opposite, it would be seen and changed back.

nothing is impossible, but let's face it, if you were to "modify" an airsoft to fire live ammunition, you would basically have to build a real gun and then stick an airsoft case over it, which is not really a modification, but simple a case stuck over a home made gun.

and I agree with you 100% there. Unfortunately we live in an era with overly sensational news reporting so even if it was a home made gun with airsoft shell, the sport would probably get fleeced in the papers. I really hate things like that.

Why should the responsible people obeying the law be the ones punished.

At the end of the day, I would like to support airsoft. If my supporting airsoft hurts them then I wont.

Clare gunner

nice to know you have at least tried them out before deciding your opinion on airsoft, fair enough, it's not your thing, but those of use in the airsoft forum would hate to see it get banned under replica weapons because of politicians talking out of their ar*e and trying to earn votes for the next election.

So would I,as I said I'm not into it in anyway at all,as I also said I have never ridden to hounds,but I will support the fox hunting crowd.For the simple reason is,if either airsoft or fox hunting goes,it will be game shooting and practical pistol rifle shotgun shooting next on the list.

Oh,and BTW on things not being able to be done?Does the Name Roger C[r]ook ring any bells??
Did an "investigative" tv reporter seris.Much known for reacting deactAR15s with simple tools that everyone has[inc pro gunsmith and workshop ]. Or the Brocock air cartridge gun affair???
End result Brocock air weapons are classified as firearms now in the UK.
Dont EVER belive you are safe,because you know that your airsoft cant be converted to live firethat thats all there is to it.
Some smart arse newsreporter out to make a name for himself just might just might do that and announce to the world that this was done with simple tools and could be done by a ham fisted 10yr old.Hey,its on telly so it is true...our TV never lies....
And a lie is half way round the world before the truth has it's boots on.

jaycee

I'm not interested in airsoft .
Having said that , I fully support the right of any citizen to enjoy their chosen
hobby or activity in a peaceful and lawful manner.

I am puzzled though by this proposed ban on airsoft toys.
(I don't intend to offend anyone by referring to them as such , but merely to
classify them properly as what they are ... toys.. not firearms)

If they are to be banned because they resemble real guns , how will this
be implemented ? I have no idea .

If the criteria is ..anything that resembles a real gun , then how far does that
comparison take us ..? The colour is hardly a factor as anything real or not can be spray painted. The materials used are unimportant too as if someone is seen with a "Gun shaped object" they are unlikely to be approached for " a feel of their gun" Red tips or the lack of same don't prove or disprove anything . In poor light all one may have is a silhouette of the object.

Attempting to commit a crime by using a replica gun or producing one in the course of a crime is already an offense for ages , so theres no new issue there.

So I predict that this particular piece of garbage "Vote speak" will come to nothing. Otherwise a lot of Garda time and resources are going to be wasted by the following..

1: Raiding every toy shop in the country.
2: Decommissioning water pistols.
3. Announcing and organizing another amnesty period wherein little jimmy's
capgun can be handed in and made "Safe"
4: An import ban on all gun shaped objects
5: Banana inspection guidelines to check for shape.
Ditto for Bars of soap , novelty cigarette lighters and some soldering irons.

Never going to be a runner.

C'mon guys and gals...
Let's worry about some real problems.

o1s1n

jaycee wrote:

I'm not interested in airsoft .
Having said that , I fully support the right of any citizen to enjoy their chosen
hobby or activity in a peaceful and lawful manner.

I am puzzled though by this proposed ban on airsoft toys.
(I don't intend to offend anyone by referring to them as such , but merely to
classify them properly as what they are ... toys.. not firearms)

If they are to be banned because they resemble real guns , how will this
be implemented ? I have no idea .

If the criteria is ..anything that resembles a real gun , then how far does that
comparison take us ..? The colour is hardly a factor as anything real or not can be spray painted. The materials used are unimportant too as if someone is seen with a "Gun shaped object" they are unlikely to be approached for " a feel of their gun" Red tips or the lack of same don't prove or disprove anything . In poor light all one may have is a silhouette of the object.

Attempting to commit a crime by using a replica gun or producing one in the course of a crime is already an offense for ages , so theres no new issue there.

So I predict that this particular piece of garbage "Vote speak" will come to nothing. Otherwise a lot of Garda time and resources are going to be wasted by the following..

1: Raiding every toy shop in the country.
2: Decommissioning water pistols.
3. Announcing and organizing another amnesty period wherein little jimmy's
capgun can be handed in and made "Safe"
4: An import ban on all gun shaped objects
5: Banana inspection guidelines to check for shape.
Ditto for Bars of soap , novelty cigarette lighters and some soldering irons.

Never going to be a runner.

C'mon guys and gals...
Let's worry about some real problems.

Simply, anything that comes through customs that is "too real a replica" could be seized. They could do that without forcing little jimmy to hand in his capgun. This is a real problem. For airsoft players anyway.

Someone mentioned earlier wondering why do airsoft AEGs have to look so real? Well, the idea behind most airsoft events is realism. Its the main reason I choose to play airsoft over paintball. The authenticity is lost once you start running around with silly looking multicoloured/transparent AEGs.

The same logic could be applied to firearms. I'm sure you could all still shoot with blaze orange coloured rifles. Whether you'd actually want a blaze orange coloured rifle is another thing.

bullets

Real firearms can look like toys too.....
Little off topic but to lighten the mood a little........

All this reading about Real and Toys and spraying
and making real firearms look fake and vise versa reminded
my of an Artist called Antonio Riello who's art is pretty cool
http://www.hoardmag.com/riello/Riello_1.htm
see some examples:





~B