Paganism and nazis

Nazi ideology owes much to the Völkisch Romantic movement, and the Ásatrú revival owes somewhat to it, much as some other the revival forms of Paganism owe somewhat to other branches of the Romantic movement.

This fact alone though makes Naziism no closer to Paganism than it is to Keats' "Ode to a Nightingale".

It is true that the Third Reich made use of Pagan, particularly Ásatrú symbolism in their propaganda (swastikas, solar crosses, runes - particularly sigel which was used to create the monogram of the Schutzstaffel).

The also of course made much use of Christian symbolism, Christian ethics and scientific principles. That these were used in an utterly debased form is easy enough to demonstrate in our society - being one where most people are familiar enough with Christian sybolism, Christian ethics and scientific principals to see this. Even those with an anti-Christian bias can see the "Kirche" of Kinder, Kueche, Kirche as lacking any real Christian devotion and even those with an anti-scientific bias can see that the Darwinism behind "racial purity" was a perverted one, the political science behind "geo-politics" and lebensraum was self-deluding folly and that the experiments of the extermination camps were as pointless as they were unspeakably cruel. Not to mention the fact that the belief in the inferiority of the Jews led to the greatest scientific minds of the time fleeing Germany.

As such, only those who are desperate for mud to fling will accuse the Christians or scientists of being close to Naziism (not that one need look far for such people).

So. In what way did the Nazis make use of Paganism?

The primary way was merely as historians. They looked to the past of their supposed master-race, ignored the bits they didn't like (in particular that their ancestors didn't give a toss about so-called "racial purity" and inter-married with other peoples they came into contact with, most likely including Africans and other people the Nazis considered untermenschen - since any intelligent person who cares about the welfare of their tribe knows that "purity" is just another word for in-breeding). Coming from this past they took a few symbols and ideas that they deemed suitably Germanic to emphasise. Some of these were relatively recent, such as the Fraktur which dated from the reign of the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I and had only begun to die out when the Nazis revived it as a matter of policy, some dated back to Pagan times, and some had had a continuing history from the Pagan period into the Christian period.

It's worth noting that there wasn't a consistent historical view throughout the period of the Third Reich. Since their view on history was one of deliberate ommision and exageration it was a fragile and fluid thing. For example, the Fraktur script mentioned above proved difficult for those in Occupied Europe to read. Not only was the use of the script abandoned, but the history of it was re-written to declare it Judenlettern - in one memo in 1941 the script had suddenly changed from a proud part of the master race's culture to a Jewish plot to usurp the same. As George Orwell's 1984 would have it, the previous opinion went into the "memory hole".

The relationship of the Reich to other cultural artefacts of Germany's history was just as fraught and with the exceptions of those few symbols and concepts which held a central role in its ideology and self-image none were truly part-and-parcel with the Reich.

There is an inherent and unceasing struggle in the Nazi mind with the history of his nation. In placing the nation on a pedestal he cannot admit its feet of clay. Anything in the nation's history (and this being Naziism, that history goes back to the tribes the nation was founded by, or supposedly founded by, long before any such nation truly existed) that does not match with the Reich's ideals must be deleted from the view of history or blamed on a scapegoat such as the Jews.

Continuing this project, anything complicated must be made simple, all external sources of fortune must be made internal, all internal sources of misfortune most be made external.

The high points of the nation's cultural and scientific must be celebrated, but must be celebrated mindlessly - listen to Wagner, but don't listen too carefully, read Göthe, but don't read too attentively - can you imagine the fear that somehow they might find something in there plainly at odds with what they were doing and have to abandon yet another cultural hero while they worked out how they were going to blame the Jews for this one? They would uphold Leibniz's claim to calculus over Newtons but the man was too smart to be trusted entirely - and as for Euler, let the Swiss keep their claim to him until they've worked out just what it was he was doing in University in Berlin!

In all of this madness the Pagan past was used, but like all of Germany's history it was used held by fingertips, and at arm's length.

At the highest echelons of the Reich there was disagreement about just how useful this part of Germany's past was in any case. Himmler had a fascination with it, Goebbels saw it as a useful source of theatre and hence of propaganda value, Hitler was fonder of Christianity as a source of propaganda and outright opposed to an actual revival of Paganism writing "It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to reestablish the worshipof Odin. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when
Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund."

How did the Ásatrúars themselves fair? They were forbidden from using the swastika as a symbol - the Nazis making their theft of it complete, Ludwig Fahrenkrog was forbidden to hold public meetings, and Ernst Wachler died in Auschwitz. Magic-workers similarly suffered, including Friedrich Bernhard Marby (whose work with runes was to be influencial on Ásatrúars and others) who was sent first to Weltzheim and was interned in Dachau when it was liberated.

Neo-nazis have attempted to make a similar use of Paganism, again focussing particularly on Ásatrú, but also looking elsewhere. In doing this they face both the difficulty that the Third Reich had with the same use of Paganism, and also that they need to cover the way the Reich they glorify treated the pioneers of the Ásatrú revival. It leads to in-fighting amongst the far-right in itself, since they find themselves at odds with those who tie their fascism to a perverse version of Christianity. Further in-fighting happens because the fact that the wider Pagan community tends towards more liberal or even radical views (by no means does this hold for all Pagans - we have conservatives in our midst as well, but the current demographics are such that people on the liberal or radical end of the political spectrum are somewhat more common amongst Pagans than within the general population). This can lead to the frankly bizarre arguments amongst them where the same Pagan path is held in one sentence to be an expression of some "racial virtue" or other and in the next to be a bunch of Communists and "race-traitors".

Really, anything that leads to in-fighting within the far-right can only be a good thing. Unfortunately the uneducated outside of the far-right can sometimes believe the neo-nazi propaganda and be fooled into thinking there is any real basis to the claims the make on Ásatrúar symbols and other aspects of Pagan culture and practice. It's painful to be associated with such scum, and since some people will never value what a mere cursory glance at the Pagan community could so them over what excites their love of sensation and scandal the association will probably remain in some people's minds for some time.

I don't know much about soccer, but it all seems a tad dodgy to me.

Agreed.
I don't know much about paganism, but it all seems a tad dodgy to me.

Seems to be mainly people from the aristocracy, rich professionals.

What do you think of Aleister Crowley?..or Marquis De Sade, were they pagans?

Well, as a pagan, which you claim to be, do you partake in ritualised sex?
This is part of your religion, isn't it?

I'm not negative about sexuality, but there seems to be underlying motives
for those who want to become pagans.

What do you think of ritual abuse in paganism, is that a christian conspiracy or anti-pagan agenda by the christian fundamentalists?

Bare in mind, i don't follow any religion, at all, so you are welcome to attack
me for being stupid, rather than what religion i practice.

I believe in being a good person, and knowing the difference between right
and wrong, that is enough for me.
I can be evil if i want to be, but that is the weaker option, for weak-minded people.

I'm in no way saying that you're involved for any sinister purposes, but i've
met alot of people who are morally corrupt, talk about their twisted
sexual fantasies and interest in paganism for that sole purpose.

The people seemed to be from rich backgrounds, and work in well paid jobs,
or not at all, because they're so rich, they don't have to.

I don't like any religion, at all.

Average Joe wrote:

Bare in mind, i don't follow any religion, at all, so you are welcome to attack
me for being stupid, rather than what religion i practice.

Sorry about that, I just wanted to push you a tiny bit because the references to the de Sade and Crowley made me suspect it might be a troll, and I just wanted to push it enough to catch you out if you were.
A bit mean, but I'd rather spend my time answering honest questions than amusing trolls, so I wanted to be sure.

Crowley is in many ways a very great man. He was also bit of a pervert by many accounts. But then Lloyd George shagging his secretary on a regular basis didn't stop him bringing his country through WWI. Anyway I won't go into in what ways he was a great man and in what ways he was a tad dodgy because Thaed and I will just end up arguing about it (we argue about Crowley a lot) and going off-topic.

Whether Crowley could be considered a Pagan or not depends on where you draw the lines, and on just what conflicting information you choose to believe about him. He certainly has influenced some Pagan paths (though there are people of other faiths, Christians, Buddhists and some who came to Hindu from a Western background in particular, that he has influenced also). At the same time many Pagans are quite vociferous in distancing themselves from him. There is further confusion in some wordings in some groups' liturgies being based on Crowley, especially since they tend to borrow the poetry but not the meaning (in particular the wording of the Wiccan Rede is based on lines from Crowley with very different meaning, taking the poetry and applying it's meter and choice of vocabulary to something that was previously expressed in less elegant prose).

Whatever degree Crowley is linked to Paganism though, it's not as clear cut as "Crowley was a Pagan" and it's not a clearly negative thing given the mixed nature of his own character.

De Sade on the other hand had no link to Paganism. If anything he could be labeled a Satanist, though even that was without any seriousness and of the variety that mocks the predominant religion out of the crasser desire for rebellion. If De Sade was a Pagan, I'm the Pope!

Average Joe wrote:

Well, as a pagan, which you claim to be, do you partake in ritualised sex?
This is part of your religion, isn't it?

It's not part of most Pagan paths.

There is a place for ritualised sex in Wicca. But that is most often both ritualised and stylised - you place a knife into a cup as a symbol of the process that leads to reproduction and hence to the natural world continuing to function.

Average Joe wrote:

I'm not negative about sexuality, but there seems to be underlying motives
for those who want to become pagans.

Yeah, you get them. They're in for a bit of disappointment when they don't see any action other than a knife being put into a cup! Really, they're into more disappointment than that most of the time as you can spot the little lecherous gits a mile away.

Average Joe wrote:

What do you think of ritual abuse in paganism, is that a christian conspiracy or anti-pagan agenda by the christian fundamentalists?

1. There is no evidence of there being any ritual abuse of a Pagan nature.
2. There is very, very little evidence of the type of alleged Satanic abuse that gets associated with Paganism in the propaganda of certain bigots.
3. There is some evidence of abusers using ritualised elements in their abuse, these are most often either Christian or deliberately anti-Christian - just because that's what they grew up with and what acts as triggers in their minds. They are not engaging in a religious practice, they are using artefacts of religion as props in violent practices.
4. There is considerable evidence of bigots engaging in a concerted attempt to use allegations of ritual abuse as a means of slandering certain religions, in particular some Pagan religions (this is nothing new, the Jews had these allegations made against them for centuries, the Christians had these allegations made against them in Rome up until the conversion of Constantine, and even after that there were allegations that some Christians were engaging in such behaviour for some time after - really it's just the same crap that gets said about whoever you want to pick on at the time).

Average Joe wrote:

I believe in being a good person, and knowing the difference between right
and wrong, that is enough for me.
I can be evil if i want to be, but that is the weaker option, for weak-minded people.

That's enough of a philosophy to stop people from ripping each others heads off, and as long as you aren't inclined to rip people's heads off I'm happy for you to believe whatever you want

Average Joe wrote:

I'm in no way saying that you're involved for any sinister purposes, but i've
met alot of people who are morally corrupt, talk about their twisted
sexual fantasies and interest in paganism for that sole purpose.

I've met people like that, but not amongst the actual Pagan community.

I have met egotisitical, lecherous, creepy and self-absorbed **** in the Pagan community. You get them everywhere.

Average Joe wrote:

The people seemed to be from rich backgrounds, and work in well paid jobs,
or not at all, because they're so rich, they don't have to.

Rich Pagans! Do you have their addresses, I can think of some Pagan charities that could do with donations

Seriously though, Pagans work. If they don't work for a living they should still get off their asses and do something useful with their time.

Average Joe wrote:

I don't like any religion, at all.

Not everyone in this world needs to religious practice to be fulfilled. Not everyone in this world is called by any Gods.

My religion is quite frankly none of your f*cking business. All I'll say is that you are very, very wide of the mark with your assumptions. Not to mention that you're also showing yourself up as a bigot.

i was winding you up, as in previous post too.

Sadly I'm going to readjust that in light of all your comments to the fact that you have freely admitted to knowing that you are by no means equipped to form any sort of reasonable view yet continue to state quite proudly that you have no desire to know and will continue to peddle these absolutely absurd notions to the world.

i'm now a peddler of anti-pagan propaganda? ffs

Irony, thy name is Average Joe.
Mind you don't blind yourself looking in the mirror. That reflection's going to be awfully strong .....

look, i'm not being funny, but 99% of the time, i'm usually right about everything.don't argue with me.

Certainly nasty. I tend to be a bit wary of stories where hypnosis comes into it. I've read a number of incidents where false memories ended up coming up as a result of things like that.

if you read that article, you'll notice how the author discusses how many paganists dismiss victims claims of abuse.
But if the same claims came from a victim of a catholic priest, would you be as quick to dismiss it?

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=auvic&c=words&id=9218

that article, was what i read first, before i asked if crowley and de sade were pagans.

all i'm saying is, keep an open mind.

Average Joe wrote:

feel a bit of a fool actually.

Well because you said that I'm not going to completely filk your previous posts, but I'll say a few things.

Firstly, I know I deliberately pushed your buttons a tad earlier as I said, but that was a moderator action to attempt to determine whether or not you were a troll. As a rule personal abuse is not allowed. Also to anyone who knows Lemming calling him a "latent" anything makes you look more foolish than you may realise.

Mentioning Brady's reading habits means nothing, given that none of the material in question was Pagan. If it did include some Pagan material that would still not be conclusive (and certainly his reading Nietzche is far from conclusive evidence that he had any understanding of Nietzche. Nietzche is notoriously easy to deliberately misread so as to justify whatever you choose to do). Please keep your examples to something at least vaguely relevant.

Mentioning the case of Sarah Bland is not relevant even if we believe every aspect of her story (I've only a passing familiarity with the case so I'm not in a position to say if I do or not) the abuse took place under the guise of Satanic ritual, not Pagan. Settians can just about be classified as both Satanists and Pagans at the same time, other Satanists cannot. The claims are not relevant to Paganism (I will say that the only serious Satanists I've met are of the Salvador LaVey variety, and most would be quite sympathetic with what you had to say about killing someone who had abused your child despite our society considering that killing a crime).

BDSM is also irrelevant. Please keep bad-mouthing the BSDM community to the sex and sexuality forum because I don't want to be defending it here where it's off topic.

Don't believe compulsive liars.

I am aware of the claims by "Mike" and frankly I am prepared to believe them, they refer to cases of abuse committed against adults by rather Svengali-like creeps using the trappings of Pagan ritual and of people abusing the trust that is formed within Pagan working groups. It's still in the realms of the unproven, but yes I'm prepared to believe that creeps have done this.

I don't think Pagans have been responsible for the kind of abuses we know have been committed by Catholic priests. Not because I think we're any better than they are, but because we don't have the same social structures which put priests into a position of trust and authority over children that can be abused. In any case, those abuses are a fault of the priests who committed the crime, the bishops that harboured such criminals and were accomplaces after the fact, a hierarchy that empowered them to do so, and a criminal justice system that turned a blind eye - they are not a fault of Catholicism (or any other branch of Christianity) itself, and the same would be true if there were Pagans committing similar crimes.

Weak-minded people are not welcome in covens. They'd make crap Witches and we have no need or desire to swell our numbers by recruiting people into covens. Weak-minded people will be politely but firmly told to go away by any real coven.

Covens don't brainwash, because someone who is brainwashed is going to be feck all use as a witch. A witch thinks for him- or herself. A witch does what has to be done. A simpering fool hanging on the every word of a High Priest or High Priestess is not a witch.

Now there are so-called "covens" out there that can be a bit dodgy. This is one of the reason for some covens becoming more visible, we look after our own and we don't want creeps preying on our community, and we'll make concerns about a group known. The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame which was developped by a Pagan to evaluate the potential for harm a group poses and is now used by NRM researchers outside of the Pagan community.

Sapien wrote:

*Psssst!*

Anton Szandor LaVey.

You are correct of course, but hey I'm a Pagan, not a Satanist, I'm allowed to get his name wrong