Would you prefer less Irish people in Ireland?

_Brian · 05-07-2017 5:13pm

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Why aren't these people on the dole doing the jobs now? They deem themselves above being a cleaner or dishwasher, that's why. Lots of people on social welfare are probably better off on the scratcher than getting the kind of job they'd qualify for.

I'm a country with among the highest uptake in third level education there will always be opportunities for immigrants to work in lower end jobs.

There's a section of the community who would rather the dole than washing dishes for minimum wage, and then immigrants will come with no SW entitlement who will work these jobs as compared to their home countries it's a good opportunity.

Immigration is an inevitability, and in most cases it's a positive thing, I'd much rather an immigrant who is willing to work to keep themselves than an "native Irish" person who has their sights set on social welfare payments as a long term career.

We've also had an influx of some rather good looking DNA which is welcome.

Dick Rimmington · 05-07-2017 5:18pm

there might be exceptions but as far as i know, you cant just come to ireland and get welfare payments straight away.

i was born in a different country to an irish parent and despite having citizenship and more ties to ireland than my 'home' country i was declined any sort of help upon returning here a few years ago.
just to make it clear, i was in no way looking for handouts, i was willing and looking for any job, i just needed help until i got on my feet. staying/returning to the country i was born was not an option for reasons not relevant to this thread.
thankfully i had family here who were very supportive by housing and feeding me as i, without a doubt, would have been homeless and begging for food on the streets.

so i am wondering how do immigrants who have no ties to ireland at all manage to get around the habitual residency condition and receive 'instant' payments? judging from my own experience i dont think it is possible but im open to corrections (i actually welcome them, im curious!)

AnGaelach · 05-07-2017 5:20pm

Shenshen wrote: »

So you think culture changing is a bad thing?

Mass immigration changing the fundamentals of culture in such a short space of time is not the same as indigenous culture changing by its own volition.

Shenshen · 05-07-2017 5:27pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

Mass immigration changing the fundamentals of culture in such a short space of time is not the same as indigenous culture changing by its own volition.

I'm not entirely convinced that net migration of 3100 people a year is mass immigration.

And I'm not sure that 15% non-native Irish really constitutes a threat to anybody's way of life.

B0jangles · 05-07-2017 5:34pm

Immigration is as old as human history and complaining that immigrants are going to destroy our native way of life is almost as old; have a read of "Bloody Foreigners" by Robert Winder - it's about immigration and the reaction to it in Britain throughout history, but a lot of it is just as valid when it comes to talking about Ireland - specifically non-colonial, economic immigrants.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloody-Foreigners-Story-Immigration-Britain-ebook/dp/B0048BQR9K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499272174&sr=8-1&keywords=bloody+foreigners+book

brevity · 05-07-2017 5:35pm

I generally don't have a huge issue with foreigners. I work with quite a few and they are like most other people, just trying to get along. I dont know any that are pushing their culture on anyone.

The problem really is to ensure that people, both foreign and national, are aware of their responsibilities while living here. Yes, they have rights but nothing is free. They should be expected to give back to the country where possible.

I really don't like the idea of generational dolers...that would be my biggest concern.

Mutant z · 05-07-2017 5:38pm

Look at cities in the UK and see how disastrous multiculturalism has been for them.

AnGaelach · 05-07-2017 5:38pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced that net migration of 3100 people a year is mass immigration.

You think that 18% of the country being non-Irish doesn't constitute mass migration?

What do you consider "mass migration" then, 50%? 60%? 80%?

Shenshen · 05-07-2017 5:45pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

You think that 18% of the country being non-Irish doesn't constitute mass migration?

What do you consider "mass migration" then, 50%? 60%? 80%?

There are currently a little over 15% non-native Irish living in Ireland. Those 15% includes Irish people born abroad with not Irish passport.
I would start calling it mass immigration once you had an actual net immigration of 18% per year. Currently, you don't even have 1%.

jackofalltrades · 05-07-2017 5:49pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced that net migration of 3100 people a year is mass immigration.

I'd consider 50K+ people coming to this country in one year to be mass immigration.

And I'm not sure that 15% non-native Irish really constitutes a threat to anybody's way of life.

That 15% can vary significantly depending on what area you live in.
You also have to take into account the speed at which this change occurs.

Shenshen · 05-07-2017 5:54pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I'd consider 50K+ people coming to this country in one year to be mass immigration.
That 15% can vary significantly depending on what area you live in.
You also have to take into account the speed at which this change occurs.

I'd consider 60k+ leaving to be quite a strong emmigration, and that would actually worry me a lot more.

AnGaelach · 05-07-2017 5:56pm

Shenshen wrote: »

There are currently a little over 15% non-native Irish living in Ireland. Those 15% includes Irish people born abroad with not Irish passport.

Why you're quoting the CIA on it when the Census has said the country is 82% Irish is beyond me.

Shenshen wrote: »

I would start calling it mass immigration once you had an actual net immigration of 18% per year. Currently, you don't even have 1%.

The migration into Germany in 2015 was considered mass migration and it accounted for 1.2%

You're saying Germany didn't have any mass migration then? And you'd only constitute it as mass migration if there was 14.65 million people entering in a year?

You're being contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

Help!!!! · 05-07-2017 6:00pm

Dick Rimmington wrote: »

there might be exceptions but as far as i know, you cant just come to ireland and get welfare payments straight away.

i was born in a different country to an irish parent and despite having citizenship and more ties to ireland than my 'home' country i was declined any sort of help upon returning here a few years ago.
just to make it clear, i was in no way looking for handouts, i was willing and looking for any job, i just needed help until i got on my feet. staying/returning to the country i was born was not an option for reasons not relevant to this thread.
thankfully i had family here who were very supportive by housing and feeding me as i, without a doubt, would have been homeless and begging for food on the streets.

so i am wondering how do immigrants who have no ties to ireland at all manage to get around the habitual residency condition and receive 'instant' payments? judging from my own experience i dont think it is possible but im open to corrections (i actually welcome them, im curious!)

Usually by using the race card

Shenshen · 05-07-2017 6:14pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

Why you're quoting the CIA on it when the Census has said the country is 82% Irish is beyond me.

The migration into Germany in 2015 was considered mass migration and it accounted for 1.2%

You're saying Germany didn't have any mass migration then? And you'd only constitute it as mass migration if there was 14.65 million people entering in a year?

You're being contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

I would not have called it mass immigration, no. I would have called it, and still call it, and refugee crisis.
Germany has had net immigration of between 1 - 3% for the last number of years. The numbers were not the problem. The fact that the people arrived destitute, exhausted and traumatised was the problem.

Thanks for pointing me to the census - I usually avoid it, as the numbers are presented in a very awkward way, but interestingly it states that the number of non-nationals living in Ireland is in fact 11.6%, down from 12.2% from the previous census.
Though they do go on to say that this is most likely down to an increase in dual citizenship.
Still, CIA got it quite wrong indeed.

They do confirm my previous assertion that the empolyment number among non-national are quite a bit stronger than among nationals :

Non-Irish nationals have traditionally had a higher labour
force participation rate than their Irish counterparts,
and while remaining strong at 73.9 per cent in 2016, it
has fallen marginally from 74.2 per cent in 2011. The
equivalent figure in 2006 was 75.7 per cent. The
comparable rate for Irish nationals was 59.5 per cent
in 2016, (down from 60.1% and 60.9% in 2011 and 2006
respectively).

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/census2016summaryresultspart2/Chapter_5_Nationality.pdf

Help!!!! · 05-07-2017 6:19pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I would not have called it mass immigration, no. I would have called it, and still call it, and refugee crisis.
Germany has had net immigration of between 1 - 3% for the last number of years. The numbers were not the problem. The fact that the people arrived destitute, exhausted and traumatised was the problem.

Thanks for pointing me to the census - I usually avoid it, as the numbers are presented in a very awkward way, but interestingly it states that the number of non-nationals living in Ireland is in fact 11.6%, down from 12.2% from the previous census.
Though they do go on to say that this is most likely down to an increase in dual citizenship.
Still, CIA got it quite wrong indeed.

They do confirm my previous assertion that the empolyment number among non-national are quite a bit stronger than among nationals :

Non-Irish nationals have traditionally had a higher labour
force participation rate than their Irish counterparts,
and while remaining strong at 73.9 per cent in 2016, it
has fallen marginally from 74.2 per cent in 2011. The
equivalent figure in 2006 was 75.7 per cent. The
comparable rate for Irish nationals was 59.5 per cent
in 2016, (down from 60.1% and 60.9% in 2011 and 2006
respectively).

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/census2016summaryresultspart2/Chapter_5_Nationality.pdf

Hows it a refugee crisis when
1: Mainly all men, women left behind to fight
2: The majority are not from Syria but other countries not at conflict

In fairness its Germany's fault that Europe is having this problem. Merkel invited them & now its gotten out of control she hopes Italy will stop the flow

dav3 · 05-07-2017 6:24pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

You think that 18% of the country being non-Irish doesn't constitute mass migration?

11.6%. There's no need to make sh*t up.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/pressreleases/2017/prCensussummarypart1.pdf

Census 2016 results show that Ireland’s population stood at 4,761,865 in April 2016, an increase of
173,613 (3.8%) since April 2011. The total number of non-Irish nationals fell slightly to 535,475, or 11.6%
of the population, the first decline since the introduction of this question in 2002, while the number of
people with dual-Irish nationality has increased by 48,879 to 104,784 people since April 2011.

We've actually become more Irish since the last census. I'm sure the OP is delighted.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-07-2017 6:37pm

dav3 wrote: »

11.6%. There's no need to make sh*t up.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/pressreleases/2017/prCensussummarypart1.pdf

We've actually become more Irish since the last census. I'm sure the OP is delighted.

You think the lads sleeping ten to a room in the city centre all filled out their census forms?

dav3 · 05-07-2017 6:43pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

You think the lads sleeping ten to a room in the city centre all filled out their census forms?

What lads? What reason have they got for not filling it out?

Are we saying we're not using the census and cso figures and we're going back to making up sh*t? That's fine with me.

Ireland is 99% Irish, some bloke on the internet told me.

AnGaelach · 05-07-2017 6:46pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I would not have called it mass immigration, no.

Well, you're simply wrong. It's been called mass migration by the vast majority of people, we even had NGOs tell us it was the largest movement of people since ww2.

And yet somehow it isn't mass migration.

Shenshen wrote:

Thanks for pointing me to the census - I usually avoid it, as the numbers are presented in a very awkward way, but interestingly it states that the number of non-nationals living in Ireland is in fact 11.6%, down from 12.2% from the previous census.

dav3 wrote: »

11.6%. There's no need to make sh*t up.

Handing them citizenship doesn't mean they aren't from somewhere else. If you want to look at the numbers themselves, you'll notice it is 82% Irish. The rest are naturalised foreigners.

Fudging the numbers (since over 100,000 people didn't put any ethnicity) to make it seem like it's more Irish than it isn't is dishonest.

The_Kew_Tour · 05-07-2017 6:52pm

The census is a load of bollocks if that is true.

If people are telling me they're less immigrants in the country now then 2011 they are either.

a. blind
b. stupid
c. don't live in Ireland

dav3 · 05-07-2017 7:02pm

That's right lads, let's ignore the census. Sure Peter Sutherland and George Soros probably typed it all up themselves, amirite?

The_Kew_Tour · 05-07-2017 7:11pm

dav3 wrote: »

That's right lads, let's ignore the census. Sure Peter Sutherland and George Soros probably typed it all up themselves, amirite?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:what a load of nonsense.

Some of us live in a real world.

If the census told you to jump off the bridge would you? You would ya.:rolleyes:

It 100 times more difficult to get rented accommodation in Cork and Dublin now then it was in 2011. Health services are under far more pressure, roads are getting busier. But ya everyone is leaving:pac::pac:

AnGaelach · 05-07-2017 7:15pm

dav3 wrote: »

That's right lads, let's ignore the census. Sure Peter Sutherland and George Soros probably typed it all up themselves, amirite?

I'm using the numbers from the census.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/2017/Chapter_6_Ethnicity_and_irish_travellers.pdf

White Irish: 3,854,226 (+0.8)
Total: 4,689,921 (+3.6)

That's 82.1%.

Help!!!! · 05-07-2017 7:20pm

OK people lets play a little game called spot the Syrian refugee kinda like wheres Wally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnSgWGUJ3jE

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-07-2017 7:28pm

dav3 wrote: »

That's right lads, let's ignore the census. Sure Peter Sutherland and George Soros probably typed it all up themselves, amirite?

Do you live in Dublin?

Mr. teddywinkles · 05-07-2017 7:32pm

Shenshen wrote: »

Same as with the natives on benefits and in social housing and have never worked a day in their lives. They're financed out of the taxes the others pay.

Please stop referring to this ****e every single response "but here the Irish draw the dole." We will deal with this eventually. People are trying to address the foreseeable problem. Not the one we have already.

Help!!!! · 05-07-2017 7:34pm

Migrant crime in Germany rose by 50% last year but sure they will come here to work

jackofalltrades · 05-07-2017 7:34pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I would not have called it mass immigration, no. I would have called it, and still call it, and refugee crisis.

So even though they're not all refugees and in most cases refugees are in the minority, you still call it a refugee crisis.
But you won't call it a mass migration, even though it's millions of people immigrating.

Germany has had net immigration of between 1 - 3% for the last number of years. The numbers were not the problem. The fact that the people arrived destitute, exhausted and traumatised was the problem.

No the numbers were the problem, if these migrants were all highly skilled German speakers, it would still have caused problems due to their sheer numbers.

Brian? · 05-07-2017 7:37pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yes we all know what Dublin was like, but dont you want to see change. Less non Irish people on benefits, council housing, HSE is better for the people who are working here & paying taxes. Sooner or later somethings going to break & the Irish economy will end up like Greece, Merkel & the EU wont come running to help.

Why does it make a difference if the person on social welfare is Irish or not. I want to see fewer people on social welfare. That right, "fewer people on social welfare" is how "less people on benefits" should actually be written.

People migrate to Ireland for jobs, by in large, they don't migrate to scam "benefits". I find your use of the term "benefits" interesting. Do you read the Daily Mail?

Brian? · 05-07-2017 7:40pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

What about the ones that are on benefits & social housing & have never worked a day in Ireland?

Here's a challenge: what % of the live register are foreign born. Now what % of them have never worked a day in Ireland. Can you find me that data?

Would you prefer less Irish people in Ireland?

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