Playing with other musicians?

Hotale.com · 17-04-2014 1:18am #1

Hey,

I've been playing guitar on my own for the past 5 years, 18 now, and I've never got the chance to actually play with other (dare I say it?) decent musicians. I've given a few lessons here and there, and I did get this god awful band together with my friend for like two weeks last summer but a drummer with zero experience and a cheap drumkit, coupled with my friend's (eh..?) lack of commitment/skill, led to its not-so-glorious end.
I also have a serious inferiority complex when it comes to my ability. I can't stand arrogance/pretentiousness, especially when it comes to music, I really don't think I could stand playing with people who think they are great and in my experience most other musicians are like this (correct me if I'm wrong).
I honestly believe I will never consider myself as anything but average, "good" is what I'd call the John Frusciantes of this world, anything below that is just mediocre in my opinion. I know, ridiculously high standards, but I can't help but feel that if I ever thought of myself as "good" I would instantly gain an inflated opinion of myself, gain a sense of complacency and in the end my playing would suffer, which is the last thing I want.
How did you find other musicians to play with? Do you think my issues regarding my ability are really just caused by some insecure paranoia I've developed? When did you start playing in bands (I feel like I'm starting fairly late)?

Cheers.

BTW: I don't want to make it sound like my only aim is make some fantastic works of music (I dint believe I'm capable of that anyway), I'd be perfectly happy to just be playing with others and having the craic, it's only a hobby for me really, but that doesn't mean I don't take it seriously, I enjoy the challenge it poses and making progress. Also, I don't know if this is in the right forum, I was going to post in AH but then I remembered I wanted serious answers. :P

Mcd2812 · 17-04-2014 1:44am

I don't think it'd hurt to have a bit more confidence in your ability as a musician. You seem very aware of the possibility of gaining an inflated ego and/or sense of complacency if you were to be overly-confident, so I highly doubt that would happen to you. I don't think 18 is that late to be starting playing with other musicians at all; as you saw in your own experience, most bands people form in their teenage years tend don't tend to be that serious anyway. When you go to college, I'm sure there'll be lots of opportunities to play with like-minded musicians who are passionate about music. Hopefully you'll be able to find people who are interested in creating/performing good music while simultaneously having fun. Best of luck

Kettleson · 17-04-2014 9:07am

One way to get going is to put out an ad'. When you get a few people interested, put together a cd of 3 songs to play. Start with covers. Make sure each person learns the songs. That way you are not sitting around scratching your heads as to what to play.

When the right players have gelled a bit, you could adventure into covers if that's what you want.

Start off by saying its 6 month or a year project. That way each person can walk away if it's not working. Good luck, but above all, enjoy the music and the experience of working with others. It's hard at first to get going, but stick at it. And avoid selfish big egos.

guitarzero · 21-04-2014 1:13am

I would agree, from my own experience, that a lot of musicians are full of themselves and have very inflated views of their abilities, it can be pretty comedic at times to say the least.

But dont take it so seriously, it's just music. It can be very tough to find people who's company and music you feel compatible with and 'humility' and music rarely seem to go hand-in-hand.

Most important thing is to enjoy whatever you do. I've been playing over 15 years and I still get a buzz just lifting my Les Paul and just strumming out some strange song patterns. I got myself a Loop Player which has caused me to be less reliant on others to see what potential a song or melody may have.

My advice would be to focus on your playing, your own development with the strict purpose of enjoying what you do. Then, with some refinement and maybe a clearer idea of what you wanna do, put yourself out there relentlessly. Make sure you are being noticed and keep looking because you simply never know man.

jane82 · 21-04-2014 1:20am

MAKE FRIENDS NOT MUSIC.
Then make music.
Me and ll cool jay were hanging around for years before we wrote "phenomenom".
Best mates we are. No contracts or nothing just trust.

jane82 · 21-04-2014 1:35am

Sorry for the jokey answer. I was being silly.
To be a guitar player in a decent band you should really be able to direct the band and tell them what notes to be playing.
In a standard 3 or 4 piece amateur band the lead guitarist is the brains.
If you can play some really hard songs from learning the tabs it wont really help you when leading the band.
If its confidence or lack of experience Id recommend taking up a bass or rythm positon in a band first and spend awhile finding your feet.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 5:17pm

jane82 wrote: »

MAKE FRIENDS NOT MUSIC.
Then make music.
Me and ll cool jay were hanging around for years before we wrote "phenomenom".
Best mates we are. No contracts or nothing just trust.

If they're my friends I have the right to hit them for being terrible

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 7:43pm

jane82 wrote: »

Sorry for the jokey answer. I was being silly.
To be a guitar player in a decent band you should really be able to direct the band and tell them what notes to be playing.
In a standard 3 or 4 piece amateur band the lead guitarist is the brains.
If you can play some really hard songs from learning the tabs it wont really help you when leading the band.
If its confidence or lack of experience Id recommend taking up a bass or rythm positon in a band first and spend awhile finding your feet.

You are being silly here again !!

You said..."the lead guitarist is the brains of the band!!!" :pac:

jane82 · 21-04-2014 7:46pm

Rigsby wrote: »

You are being silly here again !!

"The lead guitarist is the brains of the band!!!" :pac:

Usually starting out he would be I guess. Why do people play bass or rythem usually at the start? Most kids starting bands the bass player is the one who isnt as good as the other guitar players and gets offered bass.

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 7:57pm

jane82 wrote: »

Usually starting out he would be I guess. Why do people play bass or rythem usually at the start? Most kids starting bands the bass player is the one who isnt as good as the other guitar players and gets offered bass.

The bass can be as easy or as hard as the music dictates (think U2 versus say "Steely Dan"). I have seen some kids give up the bass because they thought it was ...too easy. They did not realize that the music itself only required root notes most of the time. Yes, it is an easy enough instrument to get up and running with, but a damn hard one to master.

Also, in any "decent" band the players should not need anyone to "tell them what notes to play". Even IF they did, what qualifies the lead guitarist to be the one ?

jane82 · 21-04-2014 8:15pm

I have much respect for bass players. Im not saying its not a talent. But you must agree if a group of young lads get together and start playing the best guitarist plays lead guitar. Hed usually be the one thats had lessons or atleast practiced the most and more than likely would have a better handle on theory.
Of course theres lads that start out to play bass. They are usually chaps that dont want to practice enough to learn chords and usually dont go anywhere past playing the smoke on the water riff.

Good bass players usually start off as guitarists. They are prepared to practice and learn.

The fella who knows it all is going to want to play lead starting out usually. Its the cool position in the band.

I have a feeling you are argueing this because you play bass. Which is fair enough. I didnt mean it as slateing bass players.

The lad thinks everyone he plays with is crap. A good lead guitarist could tell them why or how to improve. He would benefit from taking a backing role and learning from somebody better.

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 8:39pm

jane82 wrote: »

I have much respect for bass players. Im not saying its not a talent. But you must agree if a group of young lads get together and start playing the best guitarist plays lead guitar. Hed usually be the one thats had lessons or atleast practiced the most and more than likely would have a better handle on theory.
Of course theres lads that start out to play bass. They are usually chaps that dont want to practice enough to learn chords and usually dont go anywhere past playing the smoke on the water riff.

Good bass players usually start off as guitarists. They are prepared to practice and learn.

The fella who knows it all is going to want to play lead starting out usually. Its the cool position in the band.

I have a feeling you are argueing this because you play bass. Which is fair enough. I didnt mean it as slateing bass players.

The lad thinks everyone he plays with is crap. A good lead guitarist could tell them why or how to improve. He would benefit from taking a backing role and learning from somebody better.

No offence taken.

Yes, I am a bassist and have been one for the last thirty years or so. It is not so much that I think you are slating bassists, that amuses me, but that you somehow think that the lead guitarist is the be all and end all, in the band. No matter how good (or brainy

) a guitarist is, he/she needs a good rhythm section behind him.

You make a lot of generalizations. For example, where did you get the notion that good bass players start off as guitarists ? A lot of guitarists who pick up the bass are often slated for playing it like a guitar, i.e. playing a million notes per second. Personality and attitude, not the instrument you play, will determine whether you are prepared to practice and learn. The guitarist is as likely or not as anyone else in the band to have a grasp of basic theory, or to have taken lessons. Again, it is about attitude, not the instrument you play. By the same token, a good bassist can show the guitarist a thing or two.

**Vai** · 21-04-2014 8:53pm

Rigsby wrote: »

You are being silly here again !!

"The lead guitarist is the brains of the band!!!" :pac:

You kiddin? Already had the post laminated and stuck up in the practise room

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 8:56pm

**Vai** wrote: »

You kiddin? Already had the post laminated and stuck up in the practise room

I think you took my quote out of context. I was quoting what "jane82" had said, and was amused by it...hence the smiley.

I have amended the quote, to save further confusion.

**Vai** · 21-04-2014 8:57pm

Rigsby wrote: »

I think you took my quote out of context. I was quoting what "jane82" had said, and was amused by it...hence the smiley.

Nah I read the thread man, was joking myself, hence my smiley!

jane82 · 21-04-2014 9:21pm

Oh bass players sitting around congradulating themselves on how they are really the smart ones. Chortle chortle.
Ill leave you to it lads.

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 9:28pm

jane82 wrote: »

Oh bass players sitting around congradulating themselves on how they are really the smart ones. Chortle chortle.
Ill leave you to it lads.

Do I suspect a little bit of defensiveness here ? :P Has the ego been hurt ? No more debating the issue ? Perhaps it is because you are a guitarist yourself that you hold them in such high esteem ?

Sorry to rain on your parade.

jane82 · 21-04-2014 9:47pm

Rigsby wrote: »

Do I suspect a little bit of defensiveness here ? :P Has the ego been hurt ? No more debating the issue ? Perhaps it is because you are a guitarist yourself that you hold them in such high esteem ?

Sorry to rain on your parade.

Not at all. Think back 35 years ago when you first sat down with a group of chaps to play music. Did the bass player write the cool guitar solo. Or did the guitarist tell the bass player what the route notes were.
Im sure 35 years down the road you have it figured out but this is advice to a young fella who hasnt figured out how to play with other people.
What is the chances the great rigsby will take him into his band?
He needs to learn from better musicians. A guitarist thats wrote some songs and knows what hes doing will happily take a good guitarist on as a bass player so long as he does what hes told.
Its a great chance for the lad to learn and a great chance for the guitar player to get somebody in to play his route notes for him.
It doesnt mean bass players arnt smart or run bands.
But as a matter of interest how often do you see ads for bass players looking for people to join THEIR bands. The guitarist hires the rythem section 9 times out of 10.

**Vai** · 21-04-2014 9:55pm

jane82 wrote: »

Oh bass players sitting around congradulating themselves on how they are really the smart ones. Chortle chortle.
Ill leave you to it lads.

Lead guitarist here! Just not a cocky one.

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 10:14pm

jane82 wrote: »

Not at all. Think back 35 years ago when you first sat down with a group of chaps to play music. Did the bass player write the cool guitar solo. Or did the guitarist tell the bass player what the route notes were.
Im sure 35 years down the road you have it figured out but this is advice to a young fella who hasnt figured out how to play with other people.
What is the chances the great rigsby will take him into his band?
He needs to learn from better musicians. A guitarist thats wrote some songs and knows what hes doing will happily take a good guitarist on as a bass player so long as he does what hes told.
Its a great chance for the lad to learn and a great chance for the guitar player to get somebody in to play his route notes for him.
It doesnt mean bass players arnt smart or run bands.
But as a matter of interest how often do you see ads for bass players looking for people to join THEIR bands. The guitarist hires the rythem section 9 times out of 10.

"THE GREAT RIGSBY !!!" .....:D ...in my dreams maybe. I certainly dont consider myself to be any better (or worse for that matter) than anyone else. I am simply trying to make the point that NO particular member of a band is more important than another. For a band to function well everyone needs to be up to par.

Perhaps the guitarist does hire the rhythm section. Soooo...? It does not necessarily mean that he (the guitarist) is a better musician, just that he knows that he needs a good rhythm section to make HIM sound good. :P

Yes, I have thought back, as you suggested. No, I did not write the cool guitar solo. No, the guitarist did not tell me the root notes. I figured them out by ear as there was no tabs. Plus, I had learned some basic theory from a book, so I knew how to play arpeggios. Finally, that "cool" guitar solo sounded a lot cooler being cushioned by a rhythm section.

Stereomaniac · 21-04-2014 10:33pm

Never let too much schooling get in the way of your education, maaaaan. Who gives a crap about theory and the different roles as long as it sounds good? I think you all are spending way too much time over-thinking this ****, when you need to just enjoy what you do. It doesn't matter who came up with what part. People may have ideas for instruments that they don't play in the band usually, and so someone who is more skilled in the group can take it to another place sonically for them. I play in a 3 piece band, and at different times, we have all suggested to each other what might sound good for particular parts of a song on each others' instruments. Make love not war, brothers.

Rigsby · 21-04-2014 10:41pm

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Never let too much schooling get in the way of your education, maaaaan. Who gives a crap about theory and the different roles as long as it sounds good? I think you all are spending way too much time over-thinking this ****, when you need to just enjoy what you do. It doesn't matter who came up with what part. People may have ideas for instruments that they don't play in the band usually, and so someone who is more skilled in the group can take it to another place sonically for them. I play in a 3 piece band, and at different times, we have all suggested to each other what might sound good for particular parts of a song on each others' instruments. Make love not war, brothers.

Below is the statement that I have being trying to address.

jane82 wrote: »

In a standard 3 or 4 piece amateur band the lead guitarist is the brains.

Stereomaniac · 21-04-2014 10:56pm

Who gives a damn what the standard band does? I just wanna KICK OUT THE JAMS MOTHER****ER!

Deschain · 25-04-2014 1:27am

Just reading through this thread and I think there is some confusion going on. First off I am a bassist and I am not here in the defence of my fellow bass brothers. What I think Jane82 was more less saying is when a group of kids get together to form a band its usually the lead guitarist that knows a thing or two about a thing or two, he's got the grips on a few chords and can fondle his way around a minor pentatonic and make it sound 'cool'. These are the type of bands that never make it past the garage and if they do its your U2's and Arctic Monkey's of the world, but by and large they fall apart and the members move on. This is not always the case and a few years down the line, when maybe the bassist has delved into the world of minor pentatonics himself and discovered that the 'cool' solo his old lead guitarist could pull off was not so cool after all, or the few chords he wow'd everyone with back in the garage could be easily played by either stretching his fingers a little bit on the fretboard or tapping them out in a arpeggio.

Now the only problem I do have with Jane's statement, is this whole a good bassist usually started off as guitarist, now that I will defend. As I have said, I play bass, never wanted to play guitar, I have moved passed the minor pentatonic stage of my life and have a great knowledge of scales, arpeggios etc I can shred on the bass, whip around the neck fast do all those little tricks people love from lead guitarists but ya know what I find more challenging? Play an off beat bassline with a drummer, coming up something more solid rhythm wise, working with odd time signatures comfortably. The whole improvised solo thing? Ask any lead guitarist and the will tell you that is the easy part once you know how.

Hotale.com · 25-04-2014 1:35am

Deschain wrote: »

Just reading through this thread and I think there is some confusion going on. First off I am a bassist and I am not here in the defence of my fellow bass brothers. What I think Jane82 was more less saying is when a group of kids get together to form a band its usually the lead guitarist that knows a thing or two about a thing or two, he's got the grips on a few chords and can fondle his way around a minor pentatonic and make it sound 'cool'. These are the type of bands that never make it past the garage and if they do its your U2's and Arctic Monkey's of the world, but by and large they fall apart and the members move on. This is not always the case and a few years down the line, when maybe the bassist has delved into the world of minor pentatonics himself and discovered that the 'cool' solo his old lead guitarist could pull off was not so cool after all, or the few chords he wow'd everyone with back in the garage could be easily played by either stretching his fingers a little bit on the fretboard or tapping them out in a arpeggio.

Now the only problem I do have with Jane's statement, is this whole a good bassist usually started off as guitarist, now that I will defend. As I have said, I play bass, never wanted to play guitar, I have moved passed the minor pentatonic stage of my life and have a great knowledge of scales, arpeggios etc I can shred on the bass, whip around the neck fast do all those little tricks people love from lead guitarists but ya know what I find more challenging? Play an off beat bassline with a drummer, coming up something more solid rhythm wise, working with odd time signatures comfortably. The whole improvised solo thing? Ask any lead guitarist and the will tell you that is the easy part once you know how.

(Besides the Arctic Monkeys dis) I completely agree. Offbeat rhythm is so much difficult to master than some improvised solo; I can make a grand enough solo up to any song on the spot, ask me to play something in 7/8 time and I'm really struggling. Any guitarist that feels turning the gain to 10 and playing 500 notes a minute is the pinnacle of musicianship needs to actually try to write something beautiful and musically challenging, I know technique is important and all but it doesn't necessarily mean you'll write nice, tasty music.

jane82 · 25-04-2014 8:47am

Jesus you are a precious bunch in here with lovely souls.
Im sorry if I offended anyone.
The lad asking for advice cant make music sound good with two people.
If he got with a guitarist and played bass for him for a while hed learn something. Thats all I wanted to say.

Deschain · 25-04-2014 1:17pm

Sorry Jane but the chap has been playing guitar for the past five years I am sure he is more than capable of playing with a band if he has been consistent with practice in that time and not 'step down' and play bass, an instrument he has not been familiar with in the last five years.

It's a shame this thread has been derailed like it has because the chap is looking for advice. It seems to me that you need to build your confidence, there is nothing egotistical about knowing you are a good at something especially if you have put the work in to become that good. Anybody can become a great musician if they put the time and effort in, ask anyone with any high degree of technical skill it didn't just happen over night. My advice to you is to put adds up online, find like minded individuals to jam with and have fun with it. You are 18, in ten years time if you are still playing you will probably have gone through a bunch of bands and picked up a good bit of knowledge in the process. But most importantly remember that having confidence is not the same as being cocky.

endacl · 25-04-2014 1:22pm

jane82 wrote: »

I have much respect for bass players. Im not saying its not a talent. But you must agree if a group of young lads get together and start playing the best guitarist plays lead guitar. Hed usually be the one thats had lessons or atleast practiced the most and more than likely would have a better handle on theory.
Of course theres lads that start out to play bass. They are usually chaps that dont want to practice enough to learn chords and usually dont go anywhere past playing the smoke on the water riff.

Good bass players usually start off as guitarists. They are prepared to practice and learn.

The fella who knows it all is going to want to play lead starting out usually. Its the cool position in the band.

I have a feeling you are argueing this because you play bass. Which is fair enough. I didnt mean it as slateing bass players.

The lad thinks everyone he plays with is crap. A good lead guitarist could tell them why or how to improve. He would benefit from taking a backing role and learning from somebody better.

So wrong it's funny.

There are plenty of bassists who started on bass, because they wanted to play bass, and now play bass really well.

Where do you get your incredibly limited and astoundingly incorrect opinions?

Deschain · 25-04-2014 1:25pm

Hotale.com wrote: »

(Besides the Arctic Monkeys dis) I completely agree. Offbeat rhythm is so much difficult to master than some improvised solo; I can make a grand enough solo up to any song on the spot, ask me to play something in 7/8 time and I'm really struggling. Any guitarist that feels turning the gain to 10 and playing 500 notes a minute is the pinnacle of musicianship needs to actually try to write something beautiful and musically challenging, I know technique is important and all but it doesn't necessarily mean you'll write nice, tasty music.

Wasn't really dissing the Arctic Monkeys as such, its just that they did start off as a bunch of kids in a garage who hit the big time very early on.

Rigsby · 25-04-2014 1:48pm

Deschain wrote: »

I am not here in the defence of my fellow bass brothers.

Nor was I, in my earlier posts, as I am sure other bassists are well able to stand up for themselves
if they feel the necessity.

I was giving my opinions based on personal experience.

Magik08 · 25-04-2014 7:00pm

jane82 wrote: »

I have much respect for bass players. Im not saying its not a talent. But you must agree if a group of young lads get together and start playing the best guitarist plays lead guitar. Hed usually be the one thats had lessons or atleast practiced the most and more than likely would have a better handle on theory.
Of course theres lads that start out to play bass. They are usually chaps that dont want to practice enough to learn chords and usually dont go anywhere past playing the smoke on the water riff.

Good bass players usually start off as guitarists. They are prepared to practice and learn.

The fella who knows it all is going to want to play lead starting out usually. Its the cool position in the band.

I have a feeling you are argueing this because you play bass. Which is fair enough. I didnt mean it as slateing bass players.

The lad thinks everyone he plays with is crap. A good lead guitarist could tell them why or how to improve. He would benefit from taking a backing role and learning from somebody better.

Coming from a bass player, you are what we call a "guitard". In case you cannot figure it out. That is a retarded guitar player.

You clearly demonstrate having no musicality or general idea of music in the first with such asinine comments. I think you should really reevaluate your ideas of a band and learn something about music.

Your comment on starting bass players have no dedication to learn chords? Can you even construct a chord? Guitar players tend to know basic theory and a bass player does not? If you knew anything about theory, you would realize that the bass player can easily change the sound of the chord the guitar player plays with just a single note. You want to play a C Maj, I will easily change the overall sound produced to Am7.

Bet you did not know that the movement of the bass part is different from the rest of the parts as well and all you really need is bass and melody, both of Which I can easily accomplish my four strings without the middle notes.

If you insult the rhythm section, you are clearly lacking rhythm yourself. I don't know what you listen too hut music without rhythm is just Sounds like rudimentary exercises.

Trust me, your inferior comments have not in any been an insult to me.. your failure to make any intellectual statements has been an insult to music in general.

I highly recommend you check your perception on this before you go back to band practice.

Playing with other musicians?

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