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Open the school gates - Equate Ireland campaign

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    #2
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Powerful little clip from another organisation doing what they can to remove religious discrimination in Ireland.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuGXWNg4atk
    What is it that board member Ruairi Quinn thinks @equateireland can do that he couldn't do as Minister for Education?


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    #3
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,274 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Good question... maybe he grew a pair in his old age?


    Also interesting to see a JPF logo at the end of the PFJ video ;)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #4
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Good question... maybe he grew a pair in his old age?

    oh ffs he was 65 when he became minister


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    #5
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    expectationlost wrote: »
    What is it that board member Ruairi Quinn thinks @equateireland can do that he couldn't do as Minister for Education?

    Keep pushing forward much as he's always done, and more power to his elbow.


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    #6
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    smacl wrote: »
    Keep pushing forward much as he's always done, and more power to his elbow.

    Exactly. Do most people really think that there aren't massive constraints on government ministers, especially in the minority position? That once they're in government they can just enact all their policies, just like that? "Toeing the party line" hardly starts till they're actually in government juggling egos, vested interests, favours and public opinion. He did well to make any progress, even if it was only to get a nationwide profile for the campaign without getting shafted first. Has there been any progress since him?


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    #7
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    This is being spearheaded by one of the founders of BeLongTo, Michael has a lot of experience in lobbying, is respected by politicians and senior civil servants and has years of experience of developing PR campaign. These are all extremely good things.

    Having Ruari Quinn's support makes this even more of a reality.

    Hopefully this snowballs quickly and becomes an issue in the election.


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    #8
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Shrap wrote: »
    Exactly. Do most people really think that there aren't massive constraints on government ministers, especially in the minority position? That once they're in government they can just enact all their policies, just like that? "Toeing the party line" hardly starts till they're actually in government juggling egos, vested interests, favours and public opinion. He did well to make any progress, even if it was only to get a nationwide profile for the campaign without getting shafted first. Has there been any progress since him?

    Got to agree,
    Those that think a TD gets into a position and can do anything and everything they want don't understand the setup in our government. Even if the party still fully backs the TD on the issue they still have to push against very very strong unions.

    As we know the teachers don't like change, they (the unions) also won't even actively lobby for change such as changing the situation for gay/lesbian teachers...this instead is left up to smaller groups and TD's. Change in education is extremely slow because of this.


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    #9
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Even if the party still fully backs the TD on the issue they still have to push against very very strong unions.

    Oh, and let's not forget the Civil Servants. You know....our unelected government! In some departments I've no doubt these officials are the strongest impediment to change. A minister's policies occasionally meets these vested interests for the first time like a head on crash into an immovable object. Rory Quinn must have been an incredible negotiator, IMO.


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    #10
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,855 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Shrap wrote: »
    Oh, and let's not forget the Civil Servants. You know....our unelected government! In some departments I've no doubt these officials are the strongest impediment to change. A minister's policies occasionally meets these vested interests for the first time like a head on crash into an immovable object. Rory Quinn must have been an incredible negotiator, IMO.

    It's been mentioned in this forum quite a few times that the Dept. of Education is possibly the most conservative of all of the government departments.


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    #11
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Shrap wrote: »
    Exactly. Do most people really think that there aren't massive constraints on government ministers, especially in the minority position? That once they're in government they can just enact all their policies, just like that? "Toeing the party line" hardly starts till they're actually in government juggling egos, vested interests, favours and public opinion. He did well to make any progress, even if it was only to get a nationwide profile for the campaign without getting shafted first. Has there been any progress since him?
    What is it that board member Ruairi Quinn thinks @equateireland can do that he couldn't do when Minister for Education?


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    #12
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    expectationlost wrote: »
    What is it that board member Ruairi Quinn thinks @equateireland can do that he couldn't do when Minister for Education?

    Déjà vu, again.


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    #13
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    expectationlost wrote: »
    What is it that board member Ruairi Quinn thinks @equateireland can do that he couldn't do when Minister for Education?

    The one follows the other, they're not mutually exclusive. I'm sure he did all he could while he was Minister for Education. When he resigned from this with a view to also retiring from politics, this is obviously the next logical step for him in continuing to work towards secular education. I personally am encouraged that he's still going to be putting his energies towards this in some capacity that is gaining traction.


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    #14
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    This is being spearheaded by one of the founders of BeLongTo, Michael has a lot of experience in lobbying, is respected by politicians and senior civil servants and has years of experience of developing PR campaign. These are all extremely good things.

    Having Ruari Quinn's support makes this even more of a reality.

    Hopefully this snowballs quickly and becomes an issue in the election.

    these are all good things if you exactly agree with equates plan, but what if you don't and you't don't have a millionaire to pay for lobbiests


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    #15
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Shrap wrote: »
    Oh, and let's not forget the Civil Servants. You know....our unelected government! In some departments I've no doubt these officials are the strongest impediment to change. A minister's policies occasionally meets these vested interests for the first time like a head on crash into an immovable object. Rory Quinn must have been an incredible negotiator, IMO.
    what did he negotiate?


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    #16
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    expectationlost wrote: »
    what did he negotiate?

    ...His way through the Dept. of Ed. to get some movement on any of his policies. I think he did a good job, under the constraints we should all recognise as holding back any liberal politician that's ever been in government in Ireland.


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    #17
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Shrap wrote: »
    Exactly. Do most people really think that there aren't massive constraints on government ministers, especially in the minority position? That once they're in government they can just enact all their policies, just like that? "Toeing the party line" hardly starts till they're actually in government juggling egos, vested interests, favours and public opinion. ?

    its not a policy its human rights, what does the number of TDs Labour have got to do with that?
    Shrap wrote: »
    He did well to make any progress, even if it was only to get a nationwide profile for the campaign without getting shafted first. Has there been any progress since him?

    profile?, ministers can't wave magic wnds but they can certainly do more then give an issue a profile.


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    #18
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    expectationlost wrote: »
    its not a policy its human rights, what does the number of TDs Labour have got to do with that?



    profile?, ministers can't wave magic wnds but they can certainly do more then give an issue a profile.

    Sigh. I had you down as someone who knew how government worked (or doesn't work, more to the point).

    If you think a human right automatically translates into government policy, you're wrong. You don't have to look too far in the past to find an example of how it doesn't, eh? Edging forward, proposed by a minority/opposed by the majority, is usually the case no?

    And baby steps it might be, but his were the greatest leaps forward on the issue any government minister ever took. One has to wonder why that was. His failings, or an impenetrable process mired in bureaucracy and smoothing egos?


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    #19
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    expectationlost wrote: »
    these are all good things if you exactly agree with equates plan, but what if you don't and you't don't have a millionaire to pay for lobbiests

    And why wouldn't you agree with their proposal? There are enough faith based lobby groups to argue against it if they so wish.


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    #20
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Posts timing out and repeating all over the shop. Boards clearly unusable again till they fix it, so I'm out. Laters!


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    #21
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Shrap wrote: »
    Posts timing out and repeating all over the shop. Boards clearly unusable again till they fix it, so I'm out. Laters!
    Three posts deleted between 11:42 and 11:48.

    Reality has been updated - again - by your friend moderator team!


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    #22
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    What's a fair standard to judge Quinn's tenure as minister? I know that he chose the ETB over some nuns as patron of some secondary schools.


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    #23
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Bristolscale7 wrote: »
    What's a fair standard to judge Quinn's tenure as minister? I know that he chose the ETB over some nuns as patron of some secondary schools.

    that he feels the need to be on the board of Equate funded by a billionaire and staffed by lobbiests to do what he couldn't get done as government minister, this is the standard to judge him by.


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    #24
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    And why wouldn't you agree with their proposal? There are enough faith based lobby groups to argue against it if they so wish.

    because I might disagree and the level of responsibility the state should take in Education and emphasis on continued use of private education providers.


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    #25
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    expectationlost wrote: »
    because I might disagree and the level of responsibility the state should take in Education and emphasis on continued use of private education providers.

    That's the thing though, these aren't private schools, they are public schools funded with public money which are still allowed to discriminate against children based on faith and until recently were allowed to discriminate against teachers based on sexual orientation.

    If these schools want to stop accepting public funding they can do whatever they want.


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    #26
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    That's the thing though, these aren't private schools, they are public schools funded with public money which are still allowed to discriminate against children based on faith and until recently were allowed to discriminate against teachers based on sexual orientation.

    If these schools want to stop accepting public funding they can do whatever they want.

    equate's solution seems to be more different private schools afaik funded by millionaires not tax payers


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    #27
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,274 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    expectationlost wrote: »
    equate's solution seems to be more different private schools afaik funded by millionaires not tax payers

    Citation needed.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #28
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Shrap wrote: »
    Sigh. I had you down as someone who knew how government worked (or doesn't work, more to the point).

    If you think a human right automatically translates into government policy, you're wrong. You don't have to look too far in the past to find an example of how it doesn't, eh? Edging forward, proposed by a minority/opposed by the majority, is usually the case no?

    And baby steps it might be, but his were the greatest leaps forward on the issue any government minister ever took. One has to wonder why that was.
    what leaps?


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    #29
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Citation needed.
    http://media.wix.com/ugd/08f4c2_1785c556797347a18c9ce86989ad0870.pdf

    http://www.equateireland.ie/#!team/mm1tb

    Declan Ryan:
    Declan Ryan founded the One Foundation in 2004 as a high-impact venture philanthropy fund focusing on helping children, young people, migrants and other vulnerable sections of society in both Ireland and Vietnam. He is a strong supporter of entrepreneurship and social enterprise in Ireland through the DCU Ryan Academy and was named Irish Philanthropist of the Year in 2008

    Set up in 2004 by Declan Ryan and Deirdre Mortell, the One Foundation is a privately-funded Irish foundation based in Dublin
    http://www.philanthropy.ie/resources/case-studies/the-one-foundation/


    2 of our largest investments Educate Together
    http://www.inarchive.com/ie/o/onefoundation.ie/6324938/2012-01-21-description/3/The_One_Foundation_Our_Tools/

    Atlantic Philanthropies grants to ET
    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/grantee/educate-together

    Sir, – In response to Clem Brennan’s query (January 22nd) “where are the parents giving up their evenings and weekends to campaign for Community National Schools”, the answer is closer to home than he may know.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/community-national-schools-1.2509922
    I want to extend a huge thanks to our key financial investor, the One Foundation, for the wonderful partnership we have had over the past five years. None of the achievements we have made in the past few years would have been possible without their vision and support.
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/sites/default/files/2013_impact_review.pdf https://www.educatetogether.ie/media/annual-reports

    Advancing School Autonomy in Ireland
    https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland.html preparing for Fine Gael minister to push for disaterous academies model in Ireland


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    #30
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,274 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It won't open.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #31
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Shrap wrote: »
    ...His way through the Dept. of Ed. to get some movement on any of his policies. I think he did a good job, under the constraints we should all recognise as holding back any liberal politician that's ever been in government in Ireland.
    I'm inclined to agree, I think Quinn made a real effort to start the ball rolling on changes he honestly believed in, and never had a prospect of anything other than an uphill struggle. The fact that after his tenure he continues to involve himself in the issues is a great credit to him in my opinion; we could use a lot more politicians like him in that regard.


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