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Census 2016 - Time to tick NO

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24567…20

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    #32
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    If you have a religion that you don't practice, and don't believe the core beliefs of, then you probably don't have a religion.
    I mean come on, how many people in Ireland who say that they are Catholic actually believe that Jesus was the son of God, Mary was a virgin, little wafers turn into flesh when a preist does a magic spell on them, etc, etc? It's just not believable. I don't understand how it survives in this day and age.
    The fact that you don't find it believable doesn't mean no one else does though, to be fair. It wouldn't be terribly appropriate to tell people they can't identify as Catholic because someone else finds it incredible that anyone would identify as Catholic.


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    #33
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Absolam wrote: »
    The fact that you don't find it believable doesn't mean no one else does though, to be fair. It wouldn't be terribly appropriate to tell people they can't identify as Catholic because someone else finds it incredible that anyone would identify as Catholic.

    Is that what Kiwi is saying, though? I get her meaning to be 'If you believe the above and consider yourself a Catholic, tick "Catholic". If you don't believe, please reevaluate your religious beliefs before completing the Census, keeping in mind how the data will be used by the Government and certain relevant institutions'.

    Is this a controversial stance to take?


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    #34
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    They do ? How ? The state and all the main political parties are anti-church.

    Anti church?
    Didn't FF TDs in kerry vote to have a crucifix installed in the county chambers.


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    #35
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    pauldla wrote: »
    Is that what Kiwi is saying, though? I get her meaning to be 'If you believe the above and consider yourself a Catholic, tick "Catholic". If you don't believe, please reevaluate your religious beliefs before completing the Census, keeping in mind how the data will be used by the Government and certain relevant institutions'.

    Is this a controversial stance to take?
    Well, she puts it in a controversial way, I think it's fair to say.

    When she writes of the belief that "little wafers turn into flesh when a preist does a magic spell on them", she must be aware that most Catholics, and the Catholic church, would indignantly deny that they believe that; they would see what she writes as a pejorative parody of Catholic belief. And if she implies, as you suggest, that only those who believe the pejorative parodic version are real Catholics, and the rest should "re-evaluate", then I think the forseeable outcome is that her line of argument is unlikely to win over many self-identifying Catholics.

    I think the starting-point here is the fairly well-established reality that people can sustain relatively low-levels of religious practice, and vague or qualified embrace of religious teaching, with not only years but generations of sustained religious identification. This is the norm in Europe; Ireland up to now has been somewhat anomalous, but in the last decade or two we seem to be moving towards this norm.

    I think a campaign that says "if you don't wholeheartedly embrace and commit to official church teaching, if you're not a regular massgoer, you shouldn't be identifying as Catholic" is unlikely to succeed - at least, to any great degree. People are likely to bridle at those who are not themselves Catholic trying to lay down the law about who is, and who is not, an authentic Catholic. I think if you're serious about this, you'll want to start not from a preconception about why people should identify as Catholic, but from some emperical investigation about why they do. (And instinctively equating Catholic education with brainwashing does not count as empirical investigation. ;)) Once you understand what you're dealing with, then your task is to consider "Can I change the way people think about religious identification? How?"

    The other possiblity, of course, is to consider trying to chang the way the state responds to religious identification, on the back of a better understanding of what it means. But that would require some empirical investigation into how they currently respond to it which, as Ab has already pointed out, seems to be lacking in the Facebook campaign.


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    #36
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    pauldla wrote: »
    Is that what Kiwi is saying, though? I get her meaning to be 'If you believe the above and consider yourself a Catholic, tick "Catholic". If you don't believe, please reevaluate your religious beliefs before completing the Census, keeping in mind how the data will be used by the Government and certain relevant institutions'.
    Is this a controversial stance to take?
    Firstly, I don't imagine Kiwi thinks she's addressing her comments to Catholics, given the forum.
    Secondly, she did not exhort anyone to change how they'd complete the census as you've offered above. She expressed her incredulity that anyone does identify as Catholic, given her own disbelief.
    Without offering any reference, in fairness, to how posters allege without evidence the data will be used, as you've said.
    But no, I didn't say that Kiwi was saying it would be terribly appropriate to tell people they can't identify as Catholic because someone else finds it incredible that anyone would identify as Catholic, I was saying that it wouldn't be terribly appropriate to do so. I suppose it would be a controversial stance to say it is appropriate though.


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    #37
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Anti church?
    Didn't FF TDs in kerry vote to have a crucifix installed in the county chambers.

    TD's dote have vote in County Councils.
    A couple of Councillors in Kerry and small wooden cross does not a conspiracy theory make.


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    #38
    matrim
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭matrim


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Haha
    It's targeted at all the cultural Catholics who don't really practice anymore.
    Not already existing atheists.

    Campaigns like this in other years were partially aimed at atheists too. This would be to have them tick "no religion" instead of "Other" and writing atheist because atheist isn't a religion.


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    #39
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,068 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If a person identifies as a Catholic (or any other religion, for whatever reasons, that is their own business) then they can say so on the census. Why the census needs to know is another matter, why don't they ask if people are stamp collectors?).

    What should not be happening is the person who completes the census form deciding whether all the other members of the household are Catholic (or any other religion). Since the form requires one person to fill it in, there is no way of getting round the fact that one religious person in a household can distort the return by claiming several others as religious, even if they are not.


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    #40
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    Will be ticking yes.


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    #41
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,068 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Isn't it odd that, while significant - probably overwhelming - numbers of the population think it is a good thing that Ireland got independence from Britain, and for many, even yet, the ills of the country can be in some way linked to our neighbour, at the same time many of the same people will fight tooth and nail to keep the influence of another foreign power in the country, and even allow and encourage it to educate our young people to keep the influence live?

    (Bad minded bit of muckstirring - it was a pope who authorised the Brits to invade Ireland in the first place -http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/the-controversial-pope-gave-the-king-of-england-permission-to-invade-ireland-191196321-237565751.html)


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    #42
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    looksee wrote: »
    Isn't it odd that, while significant - probably overwhelming - numbers of the population think it is a good thing that Ireland got independence from Britain, and for many, even yet, the ills of the country can be in some way linked to our neighbour, at the same time many of the same people will fight tooth and nail to keep the influence of another foreign power in the country, and even allow and encourage it to educate our young people to keep the influence live?


    This x 5000! I just don't get this at all. You guys fought for independence and are generally very proud of that, but the minute you gained it, you immediately allowed a new oppressor to being installed before you had even paused to come up for air.


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    #43
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I guess what non practicising, non believing cultural Catholics need to reflect on is whether they believe that continuing Catholic influence in state institutions is an acceptable price to pay for ticking Catholic on the census. If they have thought about it, reflected on it, are informed of the consequences, and think that they should still identify as Catholic according to their own conscience, then fair enough, but if they are just ticking Catholic because their parents baptised them as Catholic, they don't believe in Catholic doctrine, or even God, and they have not ever considered the implications of everyone like them officially declaring that they are Catholic, implications that they may themselves be opposed to, then it's important to point out that it is worth them considering their official religion declaration and the reasons why.


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    #44
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    If a person identifies as a Catholic (or any other religion, for whatever reasons, that is their own business) then they can say so on the census. Why the census needs to know is another matter, why don't they ask if people are stamp collectors?).

    What should not be happening is the person who completes the census form deciding whether all the other members of the household are Catholic (or any other religion). Since the form requires one person to fill it in, there is no way of getting round the fact that one religious person in a household can distort the return by claiming several others as religious, even if they are not.

    So..... The one atheist in the house who completes the census form could decide all the devoutly religious people are atheists? Good point.

    Though it is illegal to falsify a census form, so anyone who knows a census submission was falsified has a moral obligation to report it, and have it corrected.


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    #45
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,068 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Absolam wrote: »
    So..... The one atheist in the house who completes the census form could decide all the devoutly religious people are atheists? Good point.

    Though it is illegal to falsify a census form, so anyone who knows a census submission was falsified has a moral obligation to report it, and have it corrected.

    Wow, that is some leap! I will try and explain it simply. There is between 80 and 90-something per cent of the population apparently claiming to be Catholic. If the situation were as you have described, would there be this level of Catholics in the country? If that is in fact the proportion of Catholics in the country, how do they all fit in the churches each Sunday?


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    #46
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    Isn't it odd that, while significant - probably overwhelming - numbers of the population think it is a good thing that Ireland got independence from Britain, and for many, even yet, the ills of the country can be in some way linked to our neighbour, at the same time many of the same people will fight tooth and nail to keep the influence of another foreign power in the country, and even allow and encourage it to educate our young people to keep the influence live?
    I'd guess, purely from your proposition, that those who behave in such a fashion actually don't see the influence of their religion on their lives as the equivalent of the political mastery Britain exerted. Not that hard a notion to understand in fairness.
    looksee wrote: »
    Wow, that is some leap! I will try and explain it simply. There is between 80 and 90-something per cent of the population apparently claiming to be Catholic. If the situation were as you have described, would there be this level of Catholics in the country? If that is in fact the proportion of Catholics in the country, how do they all fit in the churches each Sunday?
    Hardly a leap; if one person in the household can falsely say all persons are religious, the same person can also say all persons are not religious. The number of people likely to either is obviously a matter of pure conjecture, but the recourse is the same in both instances; if you're not actually able to stand up and be accounted for properly, report the person making the false statement. It's not, in fact, any sort of a leap at all.


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    #47
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I guess what non practicising, non believing cultural Catholics need to reflect on is whether they believe that continuing Catholic influence in state institutions is an acceptable price to pay for ticking Catholic on the census.
    Though, as yet, no one has demonstrated that continuing Catholic influence in state institutions is a price to pay for ticking Catholic on the census, have they?
    Such Catholic influence as currently exists in State institutions I suspect stems more from the Catholics in those institutions actually exerting an influence, than a bureaucrat somewhere dialing influence levels up and down according to the most recent census figures.


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    #48
    Jaketherake
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭Jaketherake


    To me, being an Athiest is my choice. It doesnt mean I get to ram it down others throats at every opportunity.
    Im athiest. But I think i'll tick Catholic for the whole family because at this stage im nearly ashamed to be an athiest.
    Athiesm being preached to me is nearly as bad as Catholicism being preached.


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    #49
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Absolam wrote: »
    Though, as yet, no one has demonstrated that continuing Catholic influence in state institutions is a price to pay for ticking Catholic on the census, have they?
    Such Catholic influence as currently exists in State institutions I suspect stems more from the Catholics in those institutions actually exerting an influence, than a bureaucrat somewhere dialing influence levels up and down according to the most recent census figures.

    However if a census was done and the only people who identified as religious were those who actually believe and practise their stated religion, religious indoctrination as part of the primary school curriculum in 96% of state funded schools would suddenly become completely and utterly indefensible. It would have to stop. That is the point.


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    #50
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Absolam wrote: »
    Though, as yet, no one has demonstrated that continuing Catholic influence in state institutions is a price to pay for ticking Catholic on the census, have they?
    Such Catholic influence as currently exists in State institutions I suspect stems more from the Catholics in those institutions actually exerting an influence, than a bureaucrat somewhere dialing influence levels up and down according to the most recent census figures.

    Ticking 'Catholic' on the census allows the RCC to use those numbers to bolster their position: eg, saying that 84% of the population are Catholics when the reality is that only 33% of the population attends mass and could so be called practising.

    Would it be accurate if the girl guides continued to number me amongst them even though I only went to one meeting when I was 6?


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    #51
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    However if a census was done and the only people who identified as religious were those who actually believe and practise their stated religion, religious indoctrination as part of the primary school curriculum in 96% of state funded schools would suddenly become completely and utterly indefensible. It would have to stop. That is the point.

    That's a non sequitur. Ruairi Quinn gave parents the choice in schools which ethos they wished to retain. A significant proportion of them chose to retain their school as Catholic.


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    #52
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Bit strange how the same people complaining about atheists making a bit deal over things that don't matter are making a big deal of this. Being asked to just think about what religion you are? How dare you tell us what to do!
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Anti church?
    Didn't FF TDs in kerry vote to have a crucifix installed in the county chambers.

    Maybe it was upside down.


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    #53
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Very interesting to see posts defending "cultural Catholicism"! And trying to present an accurate statement of the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation as other. Interesting.


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    #54
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    However if a census was done and the only people who identified as religious were those who actually believe and practise their stated religion, religious indoctrination as part of the primary school curriculum in 96% of state funded schools would suddenly become completely and utterly indefensible. It would have to stop. That is the point.
    Well firstly, the way they believe and practice their stated religion is entirely up to them. For all you know every single one of those who identify as religious do actually believe and practise their stated religion by their own measure. I don't really think you should get to tell people they can't identify as Catholic because you think they're not doing it right.
    Regardless, there's no reason to think forcing them all to say they don't belong to the religion they want to will change their point of view on education? If the majority of parents continue to express a preference for Catholic education the State will continue to take that preference into account. The religious institutions won't just decide to shut up shop; as long as enough people are applying for places in their schools they will remain in operation.


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    #55
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    kylith wrote: »
    Ticking 'Catholic' on the census allows the RCC to use those numbers to bolster their position: eg, saying that 84% of the population are Catholics when the reality is that only 33% of the population attends mass and could so be called practising.
    Would it be accurate if the girl guides continued to number me amongst them even though I only went to one meeting when I was 6?
    How precisely does the Catholic Church bolster it's position using the census? Could we try for a few specifics maybe?


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    #56
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well firstly, the way they believe and practice their stated religion is entirely up to them. For all you know every single one of those who identify as religious do actually believe and practise their stated religion by their own measure. I don't really think you should get to tell people they can't identify as Catholic because you think they're not doing it right.
    Regardless, there's no reason to think forcing them all to say they don't belong to the religion they want to will change their point of view on education? If the majority of parents continue to express a preference for Catholic education the State will continue to take that preference into account. The religious institutions won't just decide to shut up shop; as long as enough people are applying for places in their schools they will remain in operation.

    Absolam is anyone truly talking about 'making' or 'forcing' anyone to identify as anything? The aim of the campaign is to ask people to think about it before they tick and ensure that they are informed of potential consequences, such as education. There are clearly implications when a very high percentage of the population identify as a single religion. Some people who habitually identify as Catholic for cultural reasons may not think about this, and may themselves be very opposed to such implications. The aim of any such campaign is to ask people to simply think, weigh up the pros and cons, and then carry on and declare whatever you think best according to your conscience. Nobody is 'making' or 'forcing' anyone to do anything.


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    #57
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,068 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Ok how about this specific, why does the government want to know what religion everyone is, unless they are going to use those figures in some way. It must be important in some way, it is the only question that has any element of opinion in it, that can be answered with other than simple facts.


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    #58
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Absolam wrote: »
    How precisely does the Catholic Church bolster it's position using the census? Could we try for a few specifics maybe?

    "Something something . . .indoctrination . . . killer albino monks . . . something something . . .therefore giant conspiracy theory"


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    #59
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Absolam is anyone truly talking about 'making' or 'forcing' anyone to identify as anything?
    The aim of the campaign is to ask people to think about it before they tick and ensure that they are informed of potential consequences, such as education. There are clearly implications when a very high percentage of the population identify as a single religion. Some people who habitually identify as Catholic for cultural reasons may not think about this, and may themselves be very opposed to such implications. The aim of any such campaign is to ask people to simply think, weigh up the pros and cons, and then carry on and declare whatever you think best according to your conscience. Nobody is 'making' or 'forcing' anyone to do anything.
    I think it's fair to say that you've done your best to give the impression that people who don't conform to what you think Catholics should be ought not to be ticking Catholic on a census, don't you? And that there are 'consequences' for doing so. So I agree, you're not going around houses twisting arms, but you're not exactly not trying to pressure people to go along with you either are you?
    For instance these 'clear implications' which you're not exactly making clear; since we don't know what they might be perhaps we should do out bit to ensure a very high percentage of the population doesn't identify as a single religion. Just in case? NO pressure though.


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    #60
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    It's a dreadfully awful threatening thing all together to the RCC and it's supporters, when people are asked to think, reflect and consider their true position it seems!


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    #61
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    Ok how about this specific, why does the government want to know what religion everyone is, unless they are going to use those figures in some way. It must be important in some way, it is the only question that has any element of opinion in it, that can be answered with other than simple facts.
    Oooh... I'm on tenterhooks! In what way are they using the figures? If it's important, I really want to know. Tell us.


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