Is Irish rugby truly the beacon of inclusiveness it is purported to be?

super_furry · 24-10-2015 1:35pm

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

jacothelad · 24-10-2015 1:37pm

jm08 wrote: »

Its not the IRFU though that sells the broadcasting rights. Its the 6Ns company.

Did BBC NI bid for the rights? Since Ulster get such good PRO12 cover, it wouldn't surprise me that their rugby budget is all used up on that.

The 6 nations Rights are not at issue. The BBC broadcast the 6 Nations to the U.K. It is the IRFU that sold the coverage of non-6 Nations games to Skyand giving it free to one section of the population while charging the other to see their team play. If you can't see a problem with this principle, you'll not understand the principle of equal treatment for all rugby on the island.

CatFromHue · 24-10-2015 1:47pm

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

That's not a great way of looking at it.

The guys who went to private schools could prob be classed as semi pro players from 14/15 onwards so they're way ahead of other players in terms of coaching.

It's the same with footballers who go to English clubs as teenagers versus those who didn't. Which group of these make it to the highest level?

seachto7 · 24-10-2015 2:20pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

I don't believe a lot of soccer players would.

One did, in the 86 World Cup final, and it was his shoulder if I'm not mistaken. As in 'twas popped back in.

The Lost Sheep · 24-10-2015 2:23pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

That's not a great way of looking at it.

The guys who went to private schools could prob be classed as semi pro players from 14/15 onwards so they're way ahead of other players in terms of coaching.

It's the same with footballers who go to English clubs as teenagers versus those who didn't. Which group of these make it to the highest level?

Why isn't it a great way of looking at it? They do prepare somewhat like pros because they have advantages to do so.
Look at the pro squads? Numbers who attended private fee paying schools against those who didn't and compare number of each type of schools in the country as a whole

CatFromHue · 24-10-2015 2:37pm

Again you're just looking at the guys who make it as a pro and like soccer they tend to be the guys who got high level coaching from a young age.

jacothelad · 24-10-2015 3:19pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Again you're just looking at the guys who make it as a pro and like soccer they tend to be the guys who got high level coaching from a young age.

Is it the wrong type of coaching though. One of Ulster's coaches told Gilroy he would never make it as a pro player. Gilroy may not be Denis Hickie but he's a pretty decent pro and has been from day one. At schools level, K>O> rugby oftem means that it's the biggest players that get the shirts while the small and skilful often get shunted aside. I'm pretty certain in N.Z. they would dismiss our way of marginalising creative players just because they hadn't grown to the size of a mountain.

irishbucsfan · 24-10-2015 3:26pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Is it the wrong type of coaching though. One of Ulster's coaches told Gilroy he would never make it as a pro player. Gilroy may not be Denis Hickie but he's a pretty decent pro and has been from day one. At schools level, K>O> rugby oftem means that it's the biggest players that get the shirts while the small and skilful often get shunted aside. I'm pretty certain in N.Z. they would dismiss our way of marginalising creative players just because they hadn't grown to the size of a mountain.

I went to school with a current international who was told the same.

But once we got exposed to proper professional coaching that changed quickly. The standard of coaching is far better there now and seems to be picking up across Leinster schools as far as I can tell. A bit concerning if those people (ie the school teacher-cum-coaches) are still entrenched up north in positions of power.

jm08 · 24-10-2015 3:28pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Can you not work that out for yourself? Well, for a start how about a few U20s games or U18 games at Ravenhill/Kingspan.

They are played in Athlone because its in the centre of Ireland. It might also have something to do with the sponsors being based in ROI.

Maybe a Womens international game instead of at Ashbourne? What about one of those fake internationals like the one against Fiji at Thomond? A Club International? What about a Barbarians game? You see it's not hard to comprehend.

Again I would say its about access - you don't see any of these games being held in Cork, Limerick or Galway.

Not too many games going to Thomond Park (which has up to recently double the capacity of Ravenhill). 18k capacity is not big enough for some of those games.

Ravenhill is hosting the semi-finals and final of the Women's Rugby world cup in 2017.

Shane Logan, CEO of Ulster Rugby, said: "Ulster Rugby is delighted that Belfast has been selected to hold the semi-finals and finals of the Women's Rugby World Cup in 2017.

"Kingspan Stadium is one of the premier rugby venues in Europe in a city that is passionate about rugby, so we are confident of staging a great festival of rugby in August 2017."

There has been a Junior World Cup in Belfast and a Wolfhounds v Saxons game in Belfast in recent times. The 'A' games seem to be rotated around the Provinces.

jm08 · 24-10-2015 3:35pm

jacothelad wrote: »

The 6 nations Rights are not at issue. The BBC broadcast the 6 Nations to the U.K. It is the IRFU that sold the coverage of non-6 Nations games to Skyand giving it free to one section of the population while charging the other to see their team play. If you can't see a problem with this principle, you'll not understand the principle of equal treatment for all rugby on the island.

I fail to see how the IRFU can sell the rights when its the 6Ns that have sold the rights to the BBC who have sold them onto Sky, RTE, ITV etc. We would be in exactly the same situation here if RTE didn't bid for them.

edit: Oops - misread.

The same principle though. Did BBC NI bid for the rights for the AIs?

Snickers Man · 24-10-2015 3:36pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That blog is an interesting read.

I have always thought that the best way to resolve this was to split the IRFU and create two separate national teams, just like in soccer,

The BEST way??? Wha'? The BEST way?? Are you for real?

It's ONE way. Hardly the BEST way.

jacothelad · 24-10-2015 3:49pm

jm08 wrote: »

I fail to see how the IRFU can sell the rights when its the 6Ns that have sold the rights to the BBC who have sold them onto Sky, RTE, ITV etc. We would be in exactly the same situation here if RTE didn't bid for them.

The 6 Nations Committee have sold the rights of Ireland Autumn Internationals to Sky? err No!

jm08 · 24-10-2015 3:54pm

jacothelad wrote: »

The 6 Nations Committee have sold the rights of Ireland Autumn Internationals to Sky? err No!

My edit above crossed with your post. Do you know if BBC NI or UTV bid for these rights or did the IRFU sell to Sky because they were the highest or only bidder?

jacothelad · 24-10-2015 4:01pm

jm08 wrote: »

They are played in Athlone because its in the centre of Ireland. It might also have something to do with the sponsors being based in ROI.

Again I would say its about access - you don't see any of these games being held in Cork, Limerick or Galway.

Not too many games going to Thomond Park (which has up to recently double the capacity of Ravenhill). 18k capacity is not big enough for some of those games.
Less than 18,000 turned up at Thomond for that Fiji game in 2012 if I recall correctly. As for capacity - catch a grip. Look at the list of grounds in which all those other games are played.

Ravenhill is hosting the semi-finals and final of the Women's Rugby world cup in 2017.

There has been a Junior World Cup in Belfast and a Wolfhounds v Saxons game in Belfast in recent times. The 'A' games seem to be rotated around the Provinces.

Athlone is the centre of Ireland so that's why games are there. What a load of twaddle. You can drag up all sorts of loony excuses and twist and swing in the wind but it's nonsense. Should the 1.8 million inhabitants of N.I. get down on our knees and thank the IRFU for the Womens RWC in 2017? No we feckin' shouldn't. As for Thomond - when exactly was it developed into a 26,000 capacity ground from 12 -`13,000.

It's very simple. The IRFU does not allocate lower level Internationals to the provinces on a fair basis.

seachto7 · 24-10-2015 4:19pm

What are the Ulster branch doing about it? Have they campaigned or asked for more high profile games in Ulster.
I do think there should be more of the "lesser" internationals played in the provinces.
Until we hear the views of current or ex Ulster international players from a unionist background , we won't know what the current state of play is.
God only knows how Davy Tweed managed to put on a green shirt!

jm08 · 24-10-2015 4:52pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Athlone is the centre of Ireland so that's why games are there. What a load of twaddle. You can drag up all sorts of loony excuses and twist and swing in the wind but it's nonsense. Should the 1.8 million inhabitants of N.I. get down on our knees and thank the IRFU for the Womens RWC in 2017? No we feckin' shouldn't. As for Thomond - when exactly was it developed into a 26,000 capacity ground from 12 -`13,000.

It's very simple. The IRFU does not allocate lower level Internationals to the provinces on a fair basis.

Its common sense to put the games in an IRFU ground in the centre of Ireland where there are reasonable connections from all parts of Ireland. It would be a heck of a journey from Belfast to Cork, or vice versa.

Who asked you to thank the IRFU for the Women's World Cup, though in fairness its a bit of a drag for the citizens of Cork to get to Belfast, but I'm sure they won't complain about that

Thomond was developed into a 26K seater in 2008 and got 1 international game since then (v Canada) in 2009. The sale of naming rights to Aviva requires that no international games are played outside of Lansdowne Rd for the next 15 years.

I seem to recall that the IRFU agreed to stage some internationals in the redeveloped Maze Stadium, but since that fell through I'd imagine 18K isn't enough.

PS - you forgot to mention that Belfast got an underage world cup a few years ago.

jm08 · 24-10-2015 4:53pm

seachto7 wrote: »

What are the Ulster branch doing about it? Have they campaigned or asked for more high profile games in Ulster.
I do think there should be more of the "lesser" internationals played in the provinces.
Until we hear the views of current or ex Ulster international players from a unionist background , we won't know what the current state of play is.
God only knows how Davy Tweed managed to put on a green shirt!

No internationals can be played outside the Aviva (as part of the naming rights deal). I think FAI have agreed the same for soccer.

stephen_n · 24-10-2015 5:40pm

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

Mike Ross
Rory Best
Paul O'connel
Sean O'Brien
Connor Murray
Robbie Henshaw
Keith Earls

From the starting 15

twinytwo · 24-10-2015 6:17pm

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

Thats hardly the IRFU's fault... for example in cork city.. every knows if you wanna play rugby you to pres or christians why? because they are massvie rugby schools the fact you have to pay fees is irrelevant..... how many schools dont and will never play rugby?

The secondary school i went to, when we asked about playing rugby we were told " there will be no british sports played in this school"

Cronin The Destroyer · 24-10-2015 6:18pm

Whilst success naturally breeds popular interest – it’s very easy for the reward-seeker to get behind a winner – it is worth noting that the Irish rugby team, whilst relatively successful in the Six Nations Championship in recent years, ultimately underachieve in a very small pool.

Rugby isn't football. The superiority New Zealand enjoy over every other rugby team in the world is unfathomable in almost any other team sport, except maybe Women's football in Ireland (Cork). Australia and South Africa's touring teams get beaten by Ireland more or less regularly, but yes they are basically on another level when it counts.

In Europe, we've won three Six Nations in the last few years, and come second in plenty of tournaments before that, picking up a lot of Triple Crowns along the way. Calling us underachievers might have a ring of truth to it historically, but at the moment we are more or less hitting at, or slightly above our weight, with the clear potential to improve exponentially.

The reason rugby is gaining in popularity is because it's very exciting to watch. England/Ireland games are epic, heroic affairs, with no quarter given, and players like Paul O'Connell, Rory Best, Sean O'Brien etc. are massive personalities that are easy to get behind. Certainly football for me just seem a lot duller.

Then again I have no interest in football, never had, but I went from being more or less totally uninterested in sport in 2003, to watching the entire World Cup that year and being totally in awe of how utterly engaging it was. I think I'm not the only person that just finds rugby more interesting to watch.

Tim Robbins · 24-10-2015 6:39pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why do we have to keep bring up "I am sick of this soccer crap creeping into rugby" etc?

Why do you keep following me around?

The Lost Sheep · 24-10-2015 6:39pm

twinytwo wrote: »

Thats hardly the IRFU's fault... for example in cork city.. every knows if you wanna play rugby you to pres or christians why? because they are massvie rugby schools the fact you have to pay fees is irrelevant..... how many schools dont and will never play rugby?

The secondary school i went to, when we asked about playing rugby we were told " there will be no british sports played in this school"

That isn't the case and "if you wanna play rugby" in Cork you go to Highfield, da Well etc. Highfield have countless munster/all Irelands produced pros.
Why just the focus on schools....

Cronin The Destroyer · 24-10-2015 6:42pm

Went to Christians and hated rugby. Was only when I got the fupp out of there that I started to enjoy watching it!

Zzippy · 24-10-2015 6:47pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Why do you keep following me around?

If you have a problem with a post, use the report function. Do not accuse posters of stalking or the like, or derail the thread with off topic stuff like that.

ThisRegard · 24-10-2015 8:04pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

As an outsider living here, I have to ask... why does sport have to be politicised? Why can't we celebrate achievement? Why does every sport have to be compared and set against each other? Rugby v GAA v soccer v cricket v boxing v horse racing v tiddlywinks v who gives a f***! Back your countrymen/women. Celebrate success.

Can I be a fan of more than one sport? Is that allowed? If it isn't, then **** you and kiss my ass because I am and will support those teams till I die.

Excellent point. I've no idea why the author mentioned unionist and nationalist representation, it's ridiculous. Does he want to go down the religious quota route rather than picking a squad based on merit?

jacothelad · 24-10-2015 8:30pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Mike Ross
Rory Best
Paul O'connel
Sean O'Brien
Connor Murray
Robbie Henshaw
Keith Earls

From the starting 15

Tommy Bowe
Ian Henderson. Guys like Henry and Cave. Trimble and Gilroy.

stephen_n · 24-10-2015 8:51pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Tommy Bowe
Ian Henderson. Guys like Henry and Cave. Trimble and Gilroy.

I wasn't sure which schools were and weren't fee paying in the north, thanks for that, so probably more than 50% of the team then come from non fee paying schools.

seachto7 · 24-10-2015 8:55pm

stephen_n wrote:

Mike Ross
Rory Best
Paul O'connel
Sean O'Brien
Connor Murray
Robbie Henshaw
Keith Earls

From the starting 15

On that note , any pro Irish players fr a poor background in the last 20 years?

The Lost Sheep · 24-10-2015 8:58pm

seachto7 wrote: »

On that note , any pro Irish players fr a poor background in the last 20 years?

What do you consider a "poor background"?

stephen_n · 24-10-2015 8:59pm

seachto7 wrote: »

On that note , any pro Irish players fr a poor background in the last 20 years?

Define a poor background and I really fail to see what that has to do with anything. The IRFU have made huge strides expanding the game into green areas, such as Tallaght and Clondalkin in the last 20 years, these would be considered poor areas, so your question has no relevance, nor substance.

Is Irish rugby truly the beacon of inclusiveness it is purported to be?

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