15 confirmed dead so far in Oregon college shooting

BattleCorp · 06-10-2015 2:03pm

listermint wrote: »

Yes something more insidious, Its called gun fascination something yourself and a few other posters appear to have.

A gun is the sporting kit for me to take part in my chosen sport of target shooting. I view the gun the same way a footballer views the football. You need a football to play football. You need a gun to take part in target shooting.

I wouldn't say that I have a gun fascination. I have an interest in guns as they are the tools of my sport. Strange that a football player is never described as having a football fascination, but if you have a gun you are fascinated with guns.

Ergo if the gun wasnt in the home this would not have happened.

You are possibly correct on this point. However, you could say the same if there was no alcohol or no cars, then you'd have no drunk driving or car accidents.

Regarding the 11 year old kid getting access to the gun and shooting his neighbour, the gun should have been stored where the child couldn't get access to it.

In this instance, I don't blame the gun. I blame the parents for leaving the gun where the kid can get access to it. If a parent left a bottle of bleach out where a toddler could drink it, I doubt we'd be blaming the bottle of bleach. The parent would be dragged across the coals, and rightly so.

Here in Ireland we have safe storage laws. My guns must be kept in a gun cabinet/safe that conforms to BS7558. Where possible, the gun should also be disassembled or have a trigger lock fitted.

But sure keep the guns, they are the best.

Once guns are used lawfully and are stored securely, then yes, I have no problem with them.

steddyeddy · 06-10-2015 2:14pm

The Republicans are now blaming mental health. No sh1t guys you deny access to mental health services and you can guarantee it's not only the patient that will suffer.

zeffabelli · 06-10-2015 2:24pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

A gun is the sporting kit for me to take part in my chosen sport of target shooting. I view the gun the same way a footballer views the football. You need a football to play football. You need a gun to take part in target shooting.

I wouldn't say that I have a gun fascination. I have an interest in guns as they are the tools of my sport. Strange that a football player is never described as having a football fascination, but if you have a gun you are fascinated with guns.

You are possibly correct on this point. However, you could say the same if there was no alcohol or no cars, then you'd have no drunk driving or car accidents.

Regarding the 11 year old kid getting access to the gun and shooting his neighbour, the gun should have been stored where the child couldn't get access to it.

In this instance, I don't blame the gun. I blame the parents for leaving the gun where the kid can get access to it. If a parent left a bottle of bleach out where a toddler could drink it, I doubt we'd be blaming the bottle of bleach. The parent would be dragged across the coals, and rightly so.

Here in Ireland we have safe storage laws. My guns must be kept in a gun cabinet/safe that conforms to BS7558. Where possible, the gun should also be disassembled or have a trigger lock fitted.

Once guns are used lawfully and are stored securely, then yes, I have no problem with them.

We have a lot of regulations around cars, improved safety.

The numbers in the US are undeniable. NY Times reports more preschoolers killed by guns than policemen in the line of duty.

The US is also In a paranoid age. Honestly the arguments on this thread of in case of s burglar. Give me a break. We all know it's not because your scared of s burglar, it's because you want to be Clint Eastwood.

BoatMad · 06-10-2015 2:36pm

listermint wrote: »

Yes something more insidious, Its called gun fascination something yourself and a few other posters appear to have.

Such gun fascination stems to their own kids and it appears some kids are quite happy to reach for this known entity in their own homes to resolve disputes.

Ergo if the gun wasnt in the home this would not have happened.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34450841

But sure keep the guns, they are the best.

Meanwhile we will hear the same / similar story tomorrow.

Congratulations on winning the argument ........

what an abusive post and poster , who seems to just want to be abusive while making no real points at all.

06-10-2015 2:51pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

We have a lot of regulations around cars, improved safety.

The numbers in the US are undeniable. NY Times reports more preschoolers killed by guns than policemen in the line of duty.

The US is also In a paranoid age. Honestly the arguments on this thread of in case of s burglar. Give me a break. We all know it's not because your scared of s burglar, it's because you want to be Clint Eastwood.

So if the NY Times reports it, it has to be true? Aye, Right!

OK, another undeniable. Many more preschoolers die in swimming pools in the US every year than both of the above put together.

How come there is no lobbying to ban/regulate swimming pools?

BoatMad · 06-10-2015 3:32pm

The US is also In a paranoid age. Honestly the arguments on this thread of in case of s burglar. Give me a break. We all know it's not because your scared of s burglar, it's because you want to be Clint Eastwood.

theres a lot of farmers in ireland attempting to be clint eastwood so

Wompa1 · 06-10-2015 3:38pm

BoatMad wrote: »

theres a lot of farmers in ireland attempting to be clint eastwood so

Go ahead Fox, make my day...

Doesn't have the same ring to it

BattleCorp · 06-10-2015 3:56pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

We have a lot of regulations around cars, improved safety.

Here in Ireland we have a lot of regulations regarding firearms too. Some sensible and some downright stupid.

Actually, as a gun owner I don't 100% agree with the American system. I like some of their freedoms but I don't believe that everybody should have access to firearms. Some people just aren't of stable enough character or don't have the right attitude to be allowed access to them.

But then again, it's their law so it's their business. I can't see that law being changed any time soon either as the gun is so ingrained in their culture, there's not the will for change.

The numbers in the US are undeniable. NY Times reports more preschoolers killed by guns than policemen in the line of duty.

Yep, if those figures are correct, then that's scandalous. I'll agree with you on that point. There's a lot of carelessness over there that doesn't happen as often here. And they have a serious cultural problem with their propensity to resort to violence at the earliest opportunity to settle scores.

We all know it's not because your scared of s burglar, it's because you want to be Clint Eastwood.

I've a gun for target shooting, several in fact. Does that make me a Clint Eastwood wannabe? Or Sparks with his air pistol, is he a Clint Eastwood wannabe?

MadsL · 06-10-2015 4:36pm

pmasterson95 wrote:

And you were all against personal attacks yesterday mads. Ah well do as you say not as you do.

It was a joke, sheesh!

justchecked · 06-10-2015 5:12pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What's a gun fetish? I enjoy target shooting here in Ireland. Does that mean that I have a gun fetish? I have 5 different guns for 5 different types of target shooting. Does that mean I have a gun fetish?

I believe they were my exact words...oh no wait.

Someone, in their home, might have a basketball, a rugby ball, tennis balls, footballs, etc. Does that mean that they have a ball fetish?

no.
But when they start altering the balls, buying attachments and accessories, adding bells and whistles, altering them to look like professional balls, defining their identity around them, cooking up conspiracies, getting not just a little ... but very upset at the prospect of some of them being taken away, using them for fantasy as a grown adult, altering their voting patterns around them then maybe they're going in the direction of a fetish.

A bullpup just means that the magazine is positioned in the stock. It doesn't make the gun any more dangerous. It's just a different place that the bullets go into the gun. Everything else works the same. Bullpup designs aren't any more dangerous than standard rifles.

Bullpup designs weren't mentioned in the context of lethality, rather they were mentioned as one example of proof of a culture of man-child gun fantasy that exists in America that some would deny. Unfortunately for these people they can't lie to themselves.

We don't need swimming pools either yet they are allowed. Here in Ireland, more people have died in swimming pools than have been shot on a firing range. The exact number of zero people have been killed on a firing range here in the past 150 years. Statistically, here in Ireland, swimming is far more dangerous than target shooting.

Which is good news in one sense. Perhaps if the US had gun laws as restrictive as Ireland we wouldn't be seeing so many spree killings in their media.
But no - because burglars. (aka - I like to play soldiers)

The Gardai disagree with you because they licence semi-auto firearms for target shooting and hunting.

And the Gardai are after all the arbiters of all that which is logical.
I'm not so sure that they disagree with me on what needs to change in US gun policy.
Also, they don't set the policy, our politicians do and as we know they never get it wrong.

We have guns here yet we don't have the mass shootings like the US has.

Maybe because our laws are more restrictive.

The big problem with America is that, culturally, they tend to resort to violence at the earliest opportunity. That's the main problem, not the guns.

So its a violent culture. Sounds to me like the last thing you need to do is have loose gun regulation in such a place.

There is no dispassionate logic from the pro gun side - any suggestion that goes even a little bit against their wishes, any talk of increased regulation returns an emotional response and talk of mass conspiracy to oppress the people.
If I was on their side and was convinced of the legitimacy of my views I'd be the first to suggest experimenting with increased regulation, and when the results were returned in my favor I'd present them as evidence.
They're not going to do that though - because they fear the results, they're in denial, they want to give an adult response in public but a great number of them know perfectly well that they just want to dick around with entirely impractical range toys in their back garden and fck those guys who died, what do they care, somebody else, wont happen to them.

MadsL · 06-10-2015 5:19pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

Ever learned of de escalation?

You might need it one day if your own weapon gets turned on you.

Happened to a guy I went to school with. In college in computer science some other student put a gun to his temple and he was able to de escalate and take the him away, leaving him owner powerless.

This is but the kind of world I want to live in.

I've been trained in descalation techniques. Is there a point to your question?

A friend of mine woke to a rapist on top of her in her own house, she managed to get her hand to her gun in the bedside locker and shot him point blank twice in the chest, he survived and was arrested and charged.

There, we traded anecdotes...both stories could have ended differently, what have we proved - nothing.

MadsL · 06-10-2015 5:23pm

justchecked wrote: »

But no - because burglars. (aka - I like to play soldiers)

Perhaps your 999 response rates are impressive in Ireland? Certainly I think an armed incident would have them there fast. I work in the 32nd largest city in the US, in a downtown bar. One night we had a loon outside brandishing a pistol, 911 response time = 23 minutes.

Billy86 · 06-10-2015 5:26pm

MadsL wrote: »

Perhaps your 999 response rates are impressive in Ireland? Certainly I think an armed incident would have them there fast. I work in the 32nd largest city in the US, in a downtown bar. One night we had a loon outside brandishing a pistol, 911 response time = 23 minutes.

Anyone know how common that situation is in the rest of the Western/developed world, compared to the US?

ceadaoin. · 06-10-2015 5:27pm

MadsL wrote: »

I've been trained in descalation techniques. Is there a point to your question?

A friend of mine woke to a rapist on top of her in her own house, she managed to get her hand to her gun in the bedside locker and shot him point blank twice in the chest, he survived and was arrested and charged.

There, we traded anecdotes...both stories could have ended differently, what have we proved - nothing.

That's a horrible thing to happen to your friend but just wondering, are alarm systems not that common in the U.S.? We have an armed response one but our neighbours don't seem to have anything. One of them has been burglarised recently. Surely being woken by an alarm is preferable to waking with an intruder already in your room and would also give you time to retrieve your gun if it wasn't close by?

Shrap · 06-10-2015 5:31pm

Did anyone post these youtube videos yet? If not, then Whoop-de-doo, you're in for a treat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE&list=PL8eq5DPi5SWyNbFQ8qdJSfWtblaY3-iky

The Daily Show - John Oliver's Australia & Gun Control - 3 part series, all short enough to watch now.....enjoy

(and despair, in equal measure

)

MadsL · 06-10-2015 5:31pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That's a horrible thing to happen to your friend but just wondering, are alarm systems not that common in the U.S.? We have an armed response one but our neighbours don't seem to have anything. One of them has been burglarised recently. Surely being woken by an alarm is preferable to waking with an intruder already in your room?

She moved to the US under an asylum programme in the 80s from Russia, following an intelligence debrief she was placed in this house. A neighbour pointed out that it wasn't the best area for a single woman to be living alone and loaned her a pistol until she could get her own.

Monitored alarms we not that common in the 80s.

MadsL · 06-10-2015 5:35pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Anyone know how common that situation is in the rest of the Western/developed world, compared to the US?

Not sure statistics exist, again just from personal experience I did have someome wave a gun at me on NYE in Prague, and have experienced a taxi driver open his glove box to show me his pistol when disputing a fare, again in Prague.

MadsL · 06-10-2015 5:39pm

listermint wrote: »

Ergo if the gun wasnt in the home this would not have happened.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34450841

I'm sure the vast majority of responsible gun owners would support criminal charges for the parents in this case.

justchecked · 06-10-2015 5:51pm

MadsL wrote: »

Perhaps your 999 response rates are impressive in Ireland? Certainly I think an armed incident would have them there fast. I work in the 32nd largest city in the US, in a downtown bar. One night we had a loon outside brandishing a pistol, 911 response time = 23 minutes.

Nothing a humble bolt loader wont cover.
No need for an ak.

MadsL · 06-10-2015 5:58pm

justchecked wrote: »

Nothing a humble bolt loader wont cover.
No need for an ak.

WTF?

justchecked · 06-10-2015 6:11pm

MadsL wrote: »

WTF?

enlighten me.

pmasterson95 · 06-10-2015 6:13pm

justchecked wrote: »

enlighten me.

Not good enough for killin. Need ma freedom

MadsL · 06-10-2015 6:34pm

justchecked wrote: »

enlighten me.

As I have no idea what you are on about please enlighten me. What do you suppose bar owners and workers actually do about such situations?

I often leave late at night in a downtown area carrying sometimes significant amounts of cash, are you seriously proposing that such workers prop a bolt-action rifle on their shoulders?

The reality is that many workers in this situation carry a small concealed carry pistol. I can't, as I am not a citizen, but often get walked to my car by colleagues who do carry.

Perhaps you can explain why this is inappropriate?

justchecked · 06-10-2015 6:46pm

MadsL wrote: »

As I have no idea what you are on about please enlighten me. What do you suppose bar owners and workers actually do about such situations?

I often leave late at night in a downtown area carrying sometimes significant amounts of cash, are you seriously proposing that such workers prop a bolt-action rifle on their shoulders?

The reality is that many workers in this situation carry a small concealed carry pistol. I can't, as I am not a citizen, but often get walked to my car by colleagues who do carry.

Perhaps you can explain why this is inappropriate?

Bar situation : the available guns in your state far, far, exceed whats needed to protect oneself in this situation.

The rest: Is entirely new, and doesn't relate to what I said.

MadsL · 06-10-2015 6:53pm

justchecked wrote: »

Bar situation : the available guns in your state far, far, exceed whats needed to protect oneself in this situation.

So, there are far too many guns in my state, so bar workers should not carry one, because...let me see if I have this right, too many potential muggers have guns. Or perhaps we should share one on a rota system?

I think I'll just go back to my wtf comment. Your logic is baffling.

justchecked · 06-10-2015 7:03pm

MadsL wrote: »

So, there are far too many guns in my state, so bar workers should not carry one, because...let me see if I have this right, too many potential muggers have guns. Or perhaps we should share one on a rota system?

I think I'll just go back to my wtf comment. Your logic is baffling.

Nope. Its more a question of quality rather than quantity.
Machine guns (It is lawful to possess a machine gun in your state), and other certain varieties of weapon, with features which facilitate crime are un-necessary.

The regulations are too lax.

My logic is not baffling if you'd care to stop, breath, and quit reacting like Alex Jones.

Manic Moran · 06-10-2015 7:04pm

Bullpup designs weren't mentioned in the context of lethality, rather they were mentioned as one example of proof of a culture of man-child gun fantasy that exists in America that some would deny. Unfortunately for these people they can't lie to themselves.

Or, maybe they have bullpups because they have several benefits over the traditionally shaped rifle? Why cannot a preference for a bullpup be an appreciation of a good design, and it must be a 'man-child gun fantasy'?

MadsL · 06-10-2015 7:13pm

justchecked wrote: »

Nope. Its more a question of quality rather than quantity.
Machine guns (It is lawful to possess a machine gun in your state), and other certain varieties of weapon, with features which facilitate crime are un-necessary.

The regulations are too lax.

My logic is not baffling if you'd care to stop, breath, and quit reacting like Alex Jones.

Sorry, I'm lost. I posted a situation where a guy is brandishing outside the bar that I work in, and your response was something about bolt-actions and AKs.
Our actual response was to go and tell him to get the f*ck out of here and call the cops and lock the door. I'm sorry to disappoint your image of us itching to blow him away.

Crimes involving the type of firearms you describe are extremely rare, mostly they involve cheap handguns. Perhaps you could be specific about "features that facilitate crime"?

justchecked · 06-10-2015 7:20pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Or, maybe they have bullpups because they have several benefits over the traditionally shaped rifle? Why cannot a preference for a bullpup be an appreciation of a good design, and it must be a 'man-child gun fantasy'?

well, bullpup stocks came to mind in that context because I was looking at, what I presume to be a fairly successful mid scale commercial website for the pro gun demographic, which had an article on the tavor sar.

The writer described it as a toy/range-toy three times iirc. I took that as some evidence of the man-child attitude which makes up a large part of US gun culture.

Toys are used by children to engage in fantasy.
Range-toys are used by man-children to engage in fantasy.

No need to restrict it to one article though, just have a google around and you'll see plenty of people in the US treating weapons that far exceed any practical civil need as toys.

And thats wouldn't really be a problem if they could only do it in one safe place.

Back - couple hours.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/06/foghorn/gun-review-iwi-tavor-sar/

MadsL · 06-10-2015 7:36pm

justchecked wrote: »

well, bullpup stocks came to mind in that context because I was looking at, what I presume to be a fairly successful mid scale commercial website for the pro gun demographic, which had an article on the tavor sar.

The writer described it as a toy/range-toy three times iirc. I took that as some evidence of the man-child attitude which makes up a large part of US gun culture.

Toys are used by children to engage in fantasy.
Range-toys are used by man-children to engage in fantasy.

No need to restrict it to one article though, just have a google around and you'll see plenty of people in the US treating weapons that far exceed any practical civil need as toys.

And thats wouldn't really be a problem if they could only do it in one safe place.

Back - couple hours.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/06/foghorn/gun-review-iwi-tavor-sar/

You seem to have a problem with firearms for recreational use or as "toys" as you insist on calling them. The use of firearms for recreational purposes is actually protected by my state's constitution.

15 confirmed dead so far in Oregon college shooting

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