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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    The motorway network is really just a radial one with dublin as the hub. It is really time to join the main branches, especially Cork-Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway as a western avenue, but also linking waterford with Limerick and Cork
    Delaying the M20 is hard to justify it will be a motorway so why not get on with it, it would benefit both Cork and Limerick and Shannon Airport


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Well when they were in power and the country was awash with money, they did nothing.

    Actually it was before An Bord Pleanala when FF lost power and the current government inexplicably pulled it before it got planning permission. They could have let the planning go through and then mothballed it, but no they canned it completely.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    zulutango wrote: »
    Paranoia aside, it isn't really beyond the bounds of possibility that a motorway between Cork and Limerick would be a serious economic threat to various vested interests, some within those two cities.

    I don't understand how. Also implied in your remarks is the suggestion that the link between Cork and Limerick is of more value to those two cities than the motorways linking them to Dublin?

    If we had built the M20/18/17 all the way from Cork to Sligo rather than connect them all to Dublin, would that have made more sense?

    The Belfast-Dundalk-Drogheda-Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford corridor (population 3 million, facing the Irish Sea and the UK) v. the Sligo-Galway-Ennis-Limerick-Cork (population 0.8 million, facing the Wild Atlantic Way)!

    Part of the problem is this "threat" nonsense.

    Surely it would be in the interest of Dublin and the country as a whole to have more economically significant cities to trade with on the island?


  • Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    I never expected the M20 to be announced yesterday. That so called 1bn price tag is far too off putting for the Gov. But I did hope they would allow the planning to re-commence. We all know choosing a preferred route and a new EIS will take years but cost little overall to put in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Producer Ben


    Well when they were in power and the country was awash with money, they did nothing.

    I genuinely cannot understand what the logic is in not even providing money for re-doing the planning. Maybe (hopefully?) there will be some sort of announcement before the election, it's almost as if they don't want votes in Cork, though I suppose they will argue that Cork is getting four schemes (Dunkettle, M28, Macroom/Ballyvourney and Mallow relief road).

    I'd gladly have lost the Mallow relief road for doing something about the M20 instead. I'm 27 at the moment and at this rate I'll be lucky if it's done by the time I'm 40 :(.

    The Macroom/Ballyvourney bypass is much more of a benefit to Kerry than Cork. Kerry politicians have pushed this more than Cork ones.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,981 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    swoofer wrote: »
    a motorway to limerick and cork could impact greatly on dublin, they are not stupid.
    Economic investment is not zero sum. Investing in cork or Limerick does not take anything away from Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    spacetweek wrote:
    Economic investment is not zero sum. Investing in cork or Limerick does not take anything away from Dublin.

    True, but do you think the people making the decisions appreciate that?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,981 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    zulutango wrote: »
    True, but do you think the people making the decisions appreciate that?

    They are not as stupid as you think so yes.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,981 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The big mistake made with the M20 was creating a big 1Billion mega project that seems too big to ever receive funding in a single year when there is such a large backlog of other schemes nationwide. It needs to be split up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    spacetweek wrote: »
    They are not as stupid as you think so yes.

    I have first hand experience of the rank stupidity of senior management in local government. Perhaps there's a higher calibre of civil servant in the upper echelons of the Department of Transport. And, of course, Minister O'Donohoe is blessed with extraordinary intelligence.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    spacetweek wrote: »
    The big mistake made with the M20 was creating a big 1Billion mega project that seems too big to ever receive funding in a single year when there is such a large backlog of other schemes nationwide. It needs to be split up.

    Yep, Dart Underground is been constantly shelved for the same reason. And while they have "revived" Metro North they've given themselves so many reviews and "get-out" clauses I find it hard to take the proposal seriously.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    zulutango wrote: »
    Minister O'Donohoe is blessed with extraordinary intelligence.

    The only type of intelligence that matters in his job is the emotional intelligence to get himself re-elected :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I often hear that the argument of "vested interests" within Cork and Limerick don't want this to progress. Who are these "vested interests"? I know there's some unfounded thought that Limerick would lose out on investment to Cork, and that Cork would lose its airport to Shannon, but those are both relatively flimsy arguments, does anyone have anything more substantial than that? Like a theoretical business making a theoretical product?

    From what I see, making Cork/Limerick/Waterford an economic counterweight to Dublin is a no-brainer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,136 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Cork would lose its place to Shannon? The same Cork that has gotten Boston, Barcelona, New York-JFK, Cardiff and Düsseldorf?

    Sure they would :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The same Cork that has been losing slots to Shannon hand over fist for the last few years. And has always struggled with transatlantic flights due to runway length. And has struggled with poor visibility because of bad location. Yep it's entirely plausible that it would.

    And on the mention of Boston, JFK, Barcelona, I'll simply reply: Ibiza and Prague. They don't exist as actual flights until they take off.

    Edit, please note also that I used the word "unfounded".


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Guys, quick question (and possibly another topic), but would it be a bad idea to improve the Cork-Limerick link by upgrading either the R513 or R517/512/518? North of Charleville to Mitchelstown.

    You could do it pretty cheaply and you could take some of the traffic off the N20, particularly relieving traffic during crashes etc.

    I know the two cities need a motorway link, but I'm trying to be constructive.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Guys, quick question (and possibly another topic), but would it be a bad idea to improve the Cork-Limerick link by upgrading either the R513 or R517/512/518? North of Charleville to Mitchelstown.

    You could do it pretty cheaply and you could take some of the traffic off the N20, particularly relieving traffic during crashes etc.

    I know the two cities need a motorway link, but I'm trying to be constructive.

    Discussed at length (and I mean length) recently here, read back a few pages as to why it's not feasable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Guys, quick question (and possibly another topic), but would it be a bad idea to improve the Cork-Limerick link by upgrading either the R513 or R517/512/518? North of Charleville to Mitchelstown.

    You could do it pretty cheaply and you could take some of the traffic off the N20, particularly relieving traffic during crashes etc.

    I know the two cities need a motorway link, but I'm trying to be constructive.

    Only if there's tunnels under the Galtees.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    marno21 wrote:
    Discussed at length (and I mean length) recently here, read back a few pages as to why it's not feasable.


    I don't recall seeing good reasons why it shouldn't go that way. Plenty of people obsessed with the N20 route though because that's what they know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭KCAccidental


    zulutango wrote: »
    I don't recall seeing good reasons why it shouldn't go that way. Plenty of people obsessed with the N20 route though because that's what they know.


    some reasons mentioned

    1) doesn't deal with commuting traffic between Cork City and North Cork and North Cork to Limerick.

    2) routing it through mitchelstown dumps even more traffic on to the dunkettle interchange. Without North ring road it will cause delays

    3) as an interurban alone, cork-limerick doesn't justify a motorway. The intermediate traffic between the towns enroute make it viable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,136 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC



    3) as an interurban alone, cork-limerick doesn't justify a motorway. The intermediate traffic between the towns enroute make it viable.

    How much traffic goes from Gort to Ennis?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Missyelliot2


    Irish_rat wrote: »
    I think FF would build this if they were in power.

    Are you falling around the place laughing at this suggestion? (everybody else is........)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    Are you falling around the place laughing at this suggestion? (everybody else is........)
    I just assumed like everyone he/she was joking :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    jgbyr wrote: »
    Yep, came through there this morning & it took around 15 minutes. All one side is dug up & they haven't touched the other side yet.

    Any completion date for Buttevant yet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    some reasons mentioned

    1) doesn't deal with commuting traffic between Cork City and North Cork and North Cork to Limerick.

    2) routing it through mitchelstown dumps even more traffic on to the dunkettle interchange. Without North ring road it will cause delays

    3) as an interurban alone, cork-limerick doesn't justify a motorway. The intermediate traffic between the towns enroute make it viable.

    Fair call, I was just skimming, apologies.

    Edit: also just to note, I am of the opinion that the M20 needs to be done ASAP, but was asking whether improvements on neighbouring routes would help alleviate congestion while we wait. Clearly that's a "no"!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,981 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Fair call, I was just skimming, apologies.

    Edit: also just to note, I am of the opinion that the M20 needs to be done ASAP, but was asking whether improvements on neighbouring routes would help alleviate congestion while we wait. Clearly that's a "no"!
    OK here's a bit more detail:

    Disadvantages to building an M20 from Limerick to Mitchelstown:
    - Existing N20 between Mallow and Cork needs rebuilding as motorway anyway
    - Existing N20 between Mallow and Croom is so bad that a new road is needed anyway
    - Would go over mountains
    - Would necessitate the widening of M8 from Mitchelstown to Cork to 6 lanes
    - Would dump all Dublin and Limerick traffic into Cork at Dunkettle which is a very congested area

    Advantage:
    - It's shorter and cheaper, but the idea isn't to do the cheapest thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    some thoughts :)
    spacetweek wrote: »
    OK here's a bit more detail:

    Disadvantages to building an M20 from Limerick to Mitchelstown:
    - Existing N20 between Mallow and Cork needs rebuilding as motorway anyway - this isn't true as the bulk of traffic would be diverted off the road and the remaining volumes certainly wouldn't justify the construction of a motorway standard road.
    - Existing N20 between Mallow and Croom is so bad that a new road is needed anyway - this is true. The current state is very bad, but that doesn't mean a full scale motorway is needed, especially if you're diverting most of the traffic current traffic onto another route.
    - Would go over mountains - not if the N24 is the alternative route. Seems to make most sense to me.
    - Would necessitate the widening of M8 from Mitchelstown to Cork to 6 lanes - is that certain, given the volumes that would be using it? I don't think so.
    - Would dump all Dublin and Limerick traffic into Cork at Dunkettle which is a very congested area - yes, this is certainly true, but then again you'd be linking up with the southern ring road rather than feeding a motorway directly into Cork. Or does the M20 plan include a northern ring?

    Advantage:
    - It's shorter and cheaper, but the idea isn't to do the cheapest thing.
    - It's also possibly the most sensible option as it would provide a substantial link between the West and the Waterford as well as Cork


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭KCAccidental


    The Traffic section of the Pre-Feasibility report included the following :

    o The study made use of existing traffic data only. Existing data compiled comprised
    Automatic Traffic Count Data from NRA, Roadside Interview (RSI) Survey data, Manual
    Classified Counts and NRA estimated counts along the N20 and N8.

    o RSI data was used to construct trip matrices to summarise traffic demand on the N20,
    N72, N8 and N24 routes. Data was coded to a system of 21 zones that allows the
    capture of movements to and from key settlements within the study area.

    o From this data the study built a likelihood matrix for each corridor option. If a trip is likely
    to use the corridor a digit „1‟ is placed, and the same with a figure „0‟ in the case of not
    using this corridor. The sum of results from this likelihood matrix is applied to the total
    volumes for every pair to get the forecast of use of every corridor. In the case that both
    options are equally likely for a particular trip, a figure „1‟ is placed in both matrices,
    indicating that it could be captured by both options.

    o Traffic volumes along the N20 are shown in the study. Traffic varies from near 25,000
    vehicles AADT near Cork, around 17,000 between Cork and Mallow, near 20,000 in
    Mallow at the N72 intersection, 10,000 to 11,000 between Mallow and Croom, and near
    15,000 between Croom and Limerick. Around Limerick volumes are about 25,000. HCV
    traffic remains relatively constant along the length of the corridor, with a percentage that
    varies between 7 & 14%; the highest (14%) is between Cork and Mallow.

    This study concludes that for long distance traffic either corridor option could be used based on
    similar route distances. This is not the same for short and medium distance traffic movements. In
    this case the Eastern Corridor would not attract significant volumes of traffic, as it does not pass
    through any of the key locations of population, industry or employment, such as Mallow,
    Charleville, Buttevant, Croom, Patrickswell and Blarney.

    The study also showed that only a relatively small proportion of the existing traffic on the N20 is
    travelling the full distance between Cork and Limerick or beyond. The analysis done on the N24
    also suggested that almost none of this traffic travels beyond Tipperary.

    To summarise the potential attraction for vehicles from the N20, the study provides a table
    which indicates that only about 2,100 vehicles would be transferred to the Eastern
    Corridor, and concludes that the majority of traffic using the existing N20 (Western
    Corridor) will still use it or an improved version.

    The additional information gathered as part of traffic study for the M20 scheme reinforces the
    recommendations of the Pre-Feasibility Study in the following aspects:

    - Strategic “Long distance” trips along the N20 route are between 20 to 30% of total flows.
    Therefore remaining flows consisting of a minimum of around 8,000 vehicles and a maximum of
    14,000 vehicles that would not be captured by a potential Eastern Corridor.

    - Local and Commuter trips are very significant along the N20 route. In particular, traffic from
    Mallow to Cork is very important, reaching volumes above 8,000 vehicles per day (adding flows
    not only between these two main cities but traffic that is generated by intermediate zones inside
    that section). This volume would not be captured by the Eastern Corridor.

    - The Western Corridor option still provides for the strategic long distance trips and provides a
    necessary upgrade to the existing N20 route to cater for significant traffic flows into the future.
    We conclude that the recommendations of the Pre-Feasibility Report were correct and the Western
    Corridor should be pursued as the route for the Atlantic Corridor.

    that was taken from the feasibility study for the M20 a few years back

    link here (pdf file so beware) http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20/FTG_Pre-feasability-Study/Pre-Feasibility%20Report%20Update%20FINAL%20%2003122008.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Very dubious analysis there. Decision should take into account projected volumes as well as existing volumes. Two very different figures. Also, the benefit of the eastern corridor providing a much needed link with Waterford and Southeast doesn't seem to have been broached?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    spacetweek wrote: »
    I think whether we have a Dublin First or Regions First is very questionable and depends on who you ask.

    I consider us to have a Regions First policy since all of the supposed investment in Dublin never actually happens. E.G. metro north was meant to start in 2000, 2006, 2012 and 2015 but has been repeatedly delayed because politicians are balking at the idea of spending that much money on Dublin when they could get greater political capital from spreading it around the country on smaller things.
    Well yes, but I'd guess the economy wasn't ever as heavily dependent on Dublin as it is now.

    There's a potential medium between "Regional-oriented" and "Dublin-oriented" strategies. That is, to focus on the other industrial regions of the country as a counterbalance to Dublin. It's never going to be Dublin V Ennis, but could potentially be Dublin V some combination of Cork/Limerick/Waterford/Galway.

    We're really into politics and economics here and way off-topic, but if you do work around the country or travel around the country regularly, you'll know that there's currently a trickle-down-from-Dublin approach.
    Multinationals complain about lack of infrastructure/broadband/utilities in the other industrial regions, compared with Dublin, making them struggle to locate outside Dublin.

    We currently don't take the other industrial areas seriously. You'd think the majority of our population or majority of our economy was based within Dublin, but the truth is that counterbalances as I mentioned above could be viable, but they're currently not being pursued. And I'll add that that's to Dublin's detriment too. It's not in Dublin's interest that unproductive areas be created elsewhere to be fed from Dublin's teat, but that's where it's currently going.

    Anyway, back on track, it should never be a discussion on Metro North OR M20. We're already going down the wrong road if we're discussing that. I'm not blaming you whatsoever, by the way, just saying we all know it's the wrong way to think of it.

    The politics thread is that way ====>>>>


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