M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

bk · 04-09-2015 10:07am

Reputable Rog wrote: »

How much would a tunnel under the Galtees cost ? Likely to be environmentally problematic as well as financially unviable.

Yes, when I hear tunnel, I hear $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Tunnels are expensive, they only build tunnels in the Alps because they have no other choice, but they still end up costing big money.

I have no proof, but I wouldn't be surprised if tunnelling it would end up costing more then just building two separate motorways.

Specially when you consider you still have to bypass Mallow, Buttevant, etc.

Another thing to consider is that by having two separate roads, you can have two separate projects, thus you can string them both out over a longer period of time. For instance two separate cheaper roads build one after the other over 10 years, versus one more expensive project (due to tunnel) built over 5 years. The former is much easier on the capital budget.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, but I would really want to see the costings of the two different options.

But to be honest, I'd rather they forget about delaying things for years and just get started on the bloody M20.

zulutango · 04-09-2015 10:36am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Tunnelling is feasible in other countries where it is linking huge populations within or between countries with much higher populations than ours. Tunnelling through the Alps is viable because the route is a major continental crossroads. A tunnel between Cork to Limerick cant be compared to a tunnel which may seem like the middle of nowhere but is on a route linking Italy to France. Also, the cost of tunnelling on the continent has to be weighed up against the cost of going over some serious mountain ranges and it is the cheaper option, the cost of tunnelling this would not compare favourably to the existing M20 plan. The alternative here is a route through favourable terrain, a good chunk of which is an online upgrade, not going over a formidable mountain range. And as for mountainous tourism, anyone interested in that doesn’t even consider what we have here to be mountains.

We struggle to fund a 7.5km tunnel in the most densely populated part of the country, we are not going to be building longer tunnels in rural areas.

There's tunnels all over Europe linking places that aren't big population centres. In any case, we should really be asking why Limerick and Cork aren't big population centres at the moment. Arguably the woeful connection between the two is one of the major reasons, coupled with, of course, the very myopic all roads lead to Dublin policy pursued by every government in the history of the State. Further to that, if we have any sense of planning in this country we should be looking at developing other population centres and the motorway network should be built with that in mind. Seeing it simply as a road improvement between two small cities is just all wrong.

Pete_Cavan · 04-09-2015 11:12am

zulutango wrote: »

There's tunnels all over Europe linking places that aren't big population centres. In any case, we should really be asking why Limerick and Cork aren't big population centres at the moment. Arguably the woeful connection between the two is one of the major reasons, coupled with, of course, the very myopic all roads lead to Dublin policy pursued by every government in the history of the State. Further to that, if we have any sense of planning in this country we should be looking at developing other population centres and the motorway network should be built with that in mind. Seeing it simply as a road improvement between two small cities is just all wrong.

My point is that a tunnel in rural Switzerland isnt to serve the population 50km either side of it, it serves the huge population of central Europe. People travelling between Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, etc. for holidays/business/shopping/whatever will use the tunnel. The number of journeys between Cork and Limerick is nothing in comparison. The cost of such a tunnel could not be justified.

zulutango · 04-09-2015 11:20am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

My point is that a tunnel in rural Switzerland isnt to serve the population 50km either side of it, it serves the huge population of central Europe. People travelling between Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, etc. for holidays/business/shopping/whatever will use the tunnel. The number of journeys between Cork and Limerick is nothing in comparison. The cost of such a tunnel could not be justified.

There's tunnels all over Scandinavia in peripheral regions serving small populations. Anyway, we can't say unless some kind of cost benefit analysis is done.

loyatemu · 04-09-2015 11:40am

zulutango wrote: »

There's tunnels all over Scandinavia in peripheral regions serving small populations. Anyway, we can't say unless some kind of cost benefit analysis is done.

Faroe Islands also has loads of tunnels linking the islands.

The main motorway between France and Spain at the eastern end of the Pyrenees goes over a pass with no tunnels, I seriously doubt a tunnel would be required in Cork.

I realise this is off-topic as people with more familiarity with the area and the route suggest the idea is not a runner, but the Galtees are not that big a range, and the maps suggest there is a low route to the west of the mountains.

Carawaystick · 04-09-2015 2:33pm

loyatemu wrote: »

The main motorway between France and Spain at the eastern end of the Pyrenees goes over a pass with no tunnels

The pas at Els Limits is fairly low though (~230m (low for major mountain ranges, not Munster)) and there are several long viaducts on the way up from the French side, while the Spanish side "ground level" is much higher

Subpopulus · 04-09-2015 5:37pm

Why in God's name would you tunnel under the Galtees when you can just build it over the surface?

The hills between Mitchelstown and Ballylanders are no worse than between Mitchelstown and Fermoy, or the hills around Watergrasshill.

irishfeen · 06-09-2015 12:06pm

From the Irish Mail on Sunday -

KENNY'S €4.5BN SPLURGE ON ROADS AND RAIL

On the M20

"In 2011, plans for the M20 Cork to Limerick road were suspended. It is now believed that part of this motorway will be built, with plans advanced to give the go-ahead for a bypass of Mallow. However, the government will grant the go-ahead to fully complete the planning process for the road at a cost of €4m"

The election is definitely on the horizon

Mc Love · 06-09-2015 12:13pm

Isnt Mallow by-passed already?

irishfeen · 06-09-2015 12:16pm

Mc Love wrote: »

Isnt Mallow by-passed already?

Nope - all traffic N/S/E/W meet at the main roundabout in Mallow. people travelling W-E and vice versa have to drive through the town itself. Its after destroying the town in reality as people just stay out of it.

Schadenfreudia · 06-09-2015 12:19pm

zulutango wrote: »

There's tunnels all over Europe linking places that aren't big population centres.

Indeed they built a long modern tunnel in that massive country, Andorra, up near Pas de la Cassa, simply to remove some switchback roads that were already coping fairly well with the traffic! (Certainly a lot better than the N20 does).

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-09-2015 5:51pm

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me what the article in the Mail on Sunday says please?

I don't live in Ireland so I can't see what it's about. If it is true about the M20 being back on the agenda, that is absolutely fantastic news. I know it's not going to happen for ages obviously, but if we could get the planning etc re-done that will be brilliant, at least the project will be back on track.

As we all know, it is so badly needed, and obviously it's a vote winner. As one of the other posters said, the countdown to the General Election is most definitely on if they're promising the motorway

.

Reputable Rog · 06-09-2015 8:53pm

captainspeed wrote: »

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me what the article in the Mail on Sunday says please?

I don't live in Ireland so I can't see what it's about. If it is true about the M20 being back on the agenda, that is absolutely fantastic news. I know it's not going to happen for ages obviously, but if we could get the planning etc re-done that will be brilliant, at least the project will be back on track.

As we all know, it is so badly needed, and obviously it's a vote winner. As one of the other posters said, the countdown to the General Election is most definitely on if they're promising the motorway .

I read it in shop, didn't say much only that part of it would be built, Mallow will be bypassed and they're going to commit €4million to bring it to design and planning stage.
If it happens I'd be shocked and delighted,
My sources tell me that it may be bundled in with the m40 north Eastern phase and Dunkettle and will be built as far as north of Mallow.
My sources also say it won't happen.

touts · 06-09-2015 9:39pm

€4m to administrators, consultancy firms and external advisors to progress the planning application between now and the election. And then the new government will get in, look at the books and say everything is stopped again.

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-09-2015 10:14pm

Well if they got the planning going again that would be a big step. That's the problem at the moment, we have to start from scratch all over again. I don't think anyone expects it to be going to tender let alone construction for another five years. What's important is that the wheels are once again put in motion so that the project is 'shovel ready' in 4-5 years time when it will be time for another roads programme. I know it's O/T, but did the article mention any other roads projects in the pipeline?

irishfeen · 07-09-2015 9:21am

If the Mallow by-pass and a section of the M20 between north of Charleville to south of Malllow was built it would improve things greatly. That first section would ease traffic greatly in Mallow, Buttevant & Charleville and also take out the Ballybeg bends.

This section is one of the most urgent in the road network in the country and election or no election has to be done to save lives and drastically improve connectivity with the south and the west.

Leonard Hofstadter · 07-09-2015 6:10pm

Indeed, Cork-Mallow isn't too bad (relatively speaking) and once you get to the Croom bypass it's fine the rest of the way into Limerick. Mallow-Charleville is where the time is lost and is very dangerous in parts.

Missyelliot2 · 07-09-2015 11:29pm

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, Cork-Mallow isn't too bad (relatively speaking) and once you get to the Croom bypass it's fine the rest of the way into Limerick. Mallow-Charleville is where the time is lost and is very dangerous in parts.

I travel this road 4 times a week (both directions), and I have to disagree with you- only because it's the only place you can safely overtake -I've been stuck behind tractors/people going at 35mph etc. and I feel stressed by the time I get to Mallow and am awaiting an opportunity to overtake! Not the way to drive..:(

Reputable Rog · 08-09-2015 9:00am

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, Cork-Mallow isn't too bad (relatively speaking) and once you get to the Croom bypass it's fine the rest of the way into Limerick. Mallow-Charleville is where the time is lost and is very dangerous in parts.

Cork to Mallow is appalling, and the situation is compounded when there is roadworks or during the agricultural season.
Its time the second largest Metropolitan District and third largest Metropolitan District in the country were properly connected.

mydiscworld · 08-09-2015 11:33am

Is Buttevant still being polughed up? Must be well over 6 months now

jgbyr · 08-09-2015 11:56am

mydiscworld wrote: »

Is Buttevant still being polughed up? Must be well over 6 months now

Yep, came through there this morning & it took around 15 minutes. All one side is dug up & they haven't touched the other side yet.

Carawaystick · 08-09-2015 4:15pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Cork to Mallow is appalling, and the situation is compounded when there is roadworks or during the agricultural season.
Its time the second largest Metropolitan District and third largest Metropolitan District in the country were properly connected.

I'll see your appalling and raise you woejus

A2LUE42 · 08-09-2015 4:19pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'll see your appalling and raise you woejus

I know someone who was coming from Mallow direction and heading for Limerick who came around the bad bends just before that and found a guy broken down in front of him.

moyners · 08-09-2015 4:28pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'll see your appalling and raise you woejus

First one looks good but it's deceptive, fatalities keep on happening on the Cork-Mallow section. The whole thing is not fit for purpose

Markcheese · 09-09-2015 3:32pm

moyners wrote: »

First one looks good but it's deceptive, fatalities keep on happening on the Cork-Mallow section. The whole thing is not fit for purpose

Cork-mallow is a wide "fast " road. There's a fair few overtaking areas - and a lot of vehicles drive it like it's a motorway - it's not - even if it was a dual carraigeway the whole way there'd be loads of crashes because of the cross roads, tractors ect .

Reputable Rog · 09-09-2015 4:16pm

I suppose the Grenagh Services will continue to thrive.
https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Grenagh,+Co.+Cork/@51.987402,-8.587582,3a,66.8y,193.36h,80.68t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sye6erRySEVL-d_7Hse3F1Q!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x484495d6b7890fad:0xa00c7a9973187f0

KCAccidental · 09-09-2015 6:48pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I suppose the Grenagh Services will continue to thrive.
https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Grenagh,+Co.+Cork/@51.987402,-8.587582,3a,66.8y,193.36h,80.68t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sye6erRySEVL-d_7Hse3F1Q!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x484495d6b7890fad:0xa00c7a9973187f0

good for a quick service alright

marno21 · 10-09-2015 12:43am

Cork - Mallow is better than Mallow - Croom but the traffic count on that section is also higher, thus the state of the road is proportional with the traffic count on it.

Cork - Mallow is as important as the rest because it is busier than the rest and the quality of road, bar the Blarney bypass, is well below the required standard. It's also a free for all in driving terms. A lot of this section is an online upgrade so can proceed before the rest, a lot of junctions along there need removing.

Does anyone know how much of Cork-Mallow is planned as online?

I know in the northern section the Croom bypass section will be done online (some of the ridges along that road still look a bit narrow)

AugustusMinimus · 10-09-2015 8:18am

marno21 wrote: »

Cork - Mallow is better than Mallow - Croom but the traffic count on that section is also higher, thus the state of the road is proportional with the traffic count on it.

Cork - Mallow is as important as the rest because it is busier than the rest and the quality of road, bar the Blarney bypass, is well below the required standard. It's also a free for all in driving terms. A lot of this section is an online upgrade so can proceed before the rest, a lot of junctions along there need removing.

Does anyone know how much of Cork-Mallow is planned as online?

I know in the northern section the Croom bypass section will be done online (some of the ridges along that road still look a bit narrow)

There's only 1 online build.

Barney to Rathduff. This is the new section of road built in the early 90s which replaced the old Mallow road.

Don't think the Croom bypass is being used at all.

The online build will also involve building minor roads on the side for local access and access for non motorway traffic.

Vanquished · 10-09-2015 10:15am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There's only 1 online build.

Barney to Rathduff. This is the new section of road built in the early 90s which replaced the old Mallow road.

Don't think the Croom bypass is being used at all.

The online build will also involve building minor roads on the side for local access and access for non motorway traffic.

The existing Croom bypass is to be reconfigured with only a short new build section skirting around the Maigue bridge.

That road is WS2 and only dates from 2001 so it would be madness not to utilise it!

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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