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Irelands Mediterranean Migrant Crisis Response

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  • 04-09-2015 7:58pm
    #1
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭


    With the intervention of the Mods over on AH,there appears to be an official Boards "Think" that Humanities is the appropriate forum to facilitate exchanges of opinion on our Governments subtly altering position on what is,by any measure,a significant element of the current Irish Immigration & Asylum framework.


    KERSPLAT:
    Mod

    Between sweeping generalisations, off topic posts, xenophobic posts, etc. etc the thread is well and truley done.

    Please go to Humanaties here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=21 if you wish to discuss it further, please read their charter before opening a thread/posting in a thread.

    Given the rather sudden Irish Ministerial abandonment of caution and reasoned appraisal,one can only hope that this thread complies with the Humanities charter under the following...
    Welcome all new and old members. “The humanities can be described as the study of how people process and document the human experience. Since humans have been able, we have used philosophy, literature, religion, art, music, history and language to understand and record our world” (Stanford University, 2014). Using more than one discipline in our discussions here makes the Humanities forum different from other forums that are focused on one discipline; i.e., we are multi-disciplinary and encourage many perspectives.

    The Aylan Kurdi photograph has,it appears spurred our Government, and some others into performing U-Turns and other manouveres to allow for claims that "We" are at last going to do stuff to address the current crisis.

    Reading the Humanities charter makes me a little more confident that the broader issues MAY be capable of discussion.

    In the absence of any Irish Government willingness to encourage debate on the Irish Policy change,it would be a brave person indeed who would suggest that the Humanities one will be a debate without differences and robust divergences of attitude.

    Whether these differences will be tolerated is another question altogether


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,381 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I think it would give citizens more clarity if the Government told us what figures they have in mind for settlement here and how the process will work.

    The country is a lot more divided on this, not that you would think it based on the one sided media reporting.


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    #3
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,818 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    There is no point in having an opinion about it. The deluge has barely begun. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.
    Just accept that there will be a lot of Muslims coming to Europe and Ireland over the next 10 years.
    Belgium is already well on it's way to becoming a Muslim state. Other European cities not far behind.
    Get with the program guys, it's gonna happen.


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    #4
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    There is no point in having an opinion about it. The deluge has barely begun. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.
    Just accept that there will be a lot of Muslims coming to Europe and Ireland over the next 10 years.
    Belgium is already well on it's way to becoming a Muslim state. Other European cities not far behind.
    Get with the program guys, it's gonna happen.

    I suspect you'll be robustly challenged on the Belgium claim...;)

    However,the issue of there being "No Point in having an opinion" raises something of a spectre.

    There is little doubt that Germany's Chancellor appears to have been a bit previous in her decision to accept 800,000 immigrants as refugees.

    Whilst the media (Including the Irish branch) remain largely on-topic,in the "Humanitarian Crisis"slant,there remain significant questions as to the timing and organization of this mass outflow of military aged males,largely from Sub-Saharan Africa.

    The ability to immediately cite the Syrian conflict as the entire reason, seems to satisfy a rather suspiciously unquestioning 5th estate.

    It is of equal interest that today's statements from Ministers Fitzgerald and Kelly,as well as the UK's Prime Minister,Cameron now follow almost to the word,that espoused by our very own Peter Sutherland last month.

    I would allow perhaps 12 months,before we see the fruits of this non-policy,and the undermining of a State's rights to support and protect it's own societal structures and population.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #5
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    There is no point in having an opinion about it. The deluge has barely begun. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.
    Just accept that there will be a lot of Muslims coming to Europe and Ireland over the next 10 years.
    Belgium is already well on it's way to becoming a Muslim state. Other European cities not far behind.
    Get with the program guys, it's gonna happen.

    Belgium has roughly the same percentage of muslims as Britain. There's more in Russia, and I don't think anyone is suggesting they're going to be a muslim state.


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    #6
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,852 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I think it would give citizens more clarity if the Government told us what figures they have in mind for settlement here and how the process will work.

    The country is a lot more divided on this, not that you would think it based on the one sided media reporting.

    Every minister seems to be going for whatever number has just been proposed and adding their own figure to it in an attempt to seem more righteous than the last.

    Listened to an interview with Robert Frisk this morning and he made an excellent point that I haven't seen made anywhere else. When asked why so many are heading to Europe his response was that many of these people will have seen NGO's working in their local regions. These NGO's are staffed in the main by Europeans. These people are kind, caring and help them in their hour of need. This leads to Europe being the place they are drawn to.

    Of course many would seem to be coming for work and a better life but it's certainly food for thought.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #7
    The Masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭The Masculinist


    The Mod in AH banned my thread on this and I was advised to post it in this thread. Interesting that this forum has so little traffic relative to AH.

    Refugees refuse to take food and water from the Hungarian Police. Instead they throw it on the train tracks.

    Desperate refugees or economic migrants trying to get the best deal? With so many starving people it is an absolute disgrace how they are carrying on in this video.



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    #8
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The Masculinist wrote: »
    The Mod in AH banned my thread on this and I was advised to post it in this thread. Interesting that this forum has so little traffic relative to AH.

    Refugees refuse to take food and water from the Hungarian Police. Instead they throw it on the train tracks.

    Desperate refugees or economic migrants trying to get the best deal? With so many starving people it is an absolute disgrace how they are carrying on in this video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3eSbpETf8
    It would appear that the children in that video have more sense than the adults, although the child at the train window was dragged away and the window closed when more fruit/bags of snacks were offered. They appear to want freedom to go wherever they want in Europe and register as refugees anywhere or possibly not register at all.

    Ireland's response to this needs to exclude economic migrants completely(we already have our share from the Celtic tiger years) and concentrate on those fleeing persecution and torture and death in their own countries and those who are not already in a safe country.


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    #9
    The Masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭The Masculinist


    Has RTE been playing the aforementioned video on the news?


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    #10
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The Masculinist wrote: »
    Has RTE been playing the aforementioned video on the news?
    I doubt they would risk bursting the crisis frenzy by showing another side to the people involved.

    Ireland has always been involved in some way in taking refugees when there has been a genuine need or crisis, The Vietnamese boat people, the Hungarians that were given refuge, the Bosnians and many others who have been given refuge and the possibility of a new life in Ireland but in this case there are a lot of people piggybacking the Syrian conflict purely for economic gain and our politicians are too engrossed in their self preservation/re-election to look further than RTE and SKY news and seek out the truth of this situation.


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    #11
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    The Masculinist wrote: »
    The Mod in AH banned my thread on this and I was advised to post it in this thread. Interesting that this forum has so little traffic relative to AH.

    Refugees refuse to take food and water from the Hungarian Police. Instead they throw it on the train tracks.

    Desperate refugees or economic migrants trying to get the best deal? With so many starving people it is an absolute disgrace how they are carrying on in this video.


    Can't have boards seen in a bad light can we :rolleyes:

    Seems to me this site is just following the sheep in the media and banning all discussion from those opposed to the influx of Muslims into Europe and in particular Ireland. We all need to get with the programme apparently.

    As for seeing that video on RTE haha dream on.


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    #12
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Mod note:
    As mentioned in the OP: please remind yourself of the Humanities/Boards charter, remain on topic and refrain from provocative & overly generalised language.


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    #13
    Kerry542
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Kerry542


    We seem to be going the same way sweden went. The politicians dont debate the issue. The mainstream media dont discuss the issue, always showing one side of the story to suit the liberal agenda. Any opposing views are shut down by labeling them as racist. So much for a democracy


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    #14
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    Nothing was shut down here anyway - there was plenty of scope for people to give their views from either side.

    I see plenty of commentary around the 'net opposing asylum for the people fleeing Syria.


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    #15
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Cold War Kid wrote: »
    Nothing was shut down here anyway - there was plenty of scope for people to give their views from either side.
    I see plenty of commentary around the 'net opposing asylum for the people fleeing Syria.

    The issue is however,that "scope" for giving one's views has been significantly narrowed by the change of location.

    For example AH at this time has 267 active members,whilst we debate in almost splendid isolation with 6 others.

    That indicates,to me,perhaps a suggestion,that there was a need to restrict the debate,discussion or arguement associated with the thread.

    Posts which offended or transgressed boundaries could well have been dealt with,as could their writers within the accepted boundaries of the AH Charter.

    The concept of "Censorship" may well as yet be unjustified,however requiring the Med-Migrant threads move to a far less popular location does'nt,appear to me,to inspire confidence in the neutrality of the modding process.

    However,it is where it is,and as one of the few available avenues of Open Public Debate on this issue, it should be encouraged.:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #16
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    What steps are currently being taken by all or any of the recipient countries including Turkey Greece and Hungary to separate and segregate refugees who are fleeing for their lives from torture and death from those who just want to get teeth implants and IPhone iPads etc and a Rolex and to drivena BMW or Mercedes?

    None of the refugees in the recent footage appear to be in dire straits as one might expect of those fleeing in the night from soldiers or marauding gangs of rebels but then if they have been living in safety for months or years in Turkey or Libya they were not in any danger and should possibly have stayed in those relatively safe areas until it is safe for them to return home.


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    #17
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,852 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    What steps are currently being taken by all or any of the recipient countries including Turkey Greece and Hungary to separate and segregate refugees who are fleeing for their lives from torture and death from those who just want to get teeth implants and IPhone iPads etc and a Rolex and to drivena BMW or Mercedes?

    None of the refugees in the recent footage appear to be in dire straits as one might expect of those fleeing in the night from soldiers or marauding gangs of rebels but then if they have been living in safety for months or years in Turkey or Libya they were not in any danger and should possibly have stayed in those relatively safe areas until it is safe for them to return home.

    Didn't Greece try it with the Syrian only boat being used for accomodation?

    You're right though, it's a huge problem that doesn't seem like being addressed any time soon.

    Some keep going on about all the Irish that emmigrate yet forget one very important aspect. When going to the US or Oz there are very strict vetting processes carried out. We even need to fill out an online visa to travel to Spain these days.

    The same approach meeds to be taken for any economic migrant trying to gain access here. Obviously this would be different for genuine asylum seekers and we should be doing whatever we can to help these people.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #18
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,901 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Agreed. Infuriating when people claim that we have a moral obligation to take in anyone who looks for a better life in Ireland, simply because 150 years ago a lot of irish emigrated. But what about all the irish who got refused from america? I cant imagine that the USA at the time didnt carefully pick and choose who got in.

    Also most of those who emigrated in the famine years settled elsewhere, so its more accurate that Irish Americans or Irish in britain should have a moral obligation to take migrants in. Last time i checked my ancestors didnt leave ireland and then come back when it had all blown over.

    seriously though, we need a proper and thorough vetting process for all who claim asylum. if not we will end up giving asylum to those who are in no danger and lose out on places for those who really need it. economic migrants sans papers are making a mockery of the system.


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    #19
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    What steps are currently being taken by all or any of the recipient countries including Turkey Greece and Hungary to separate and segregate refugees who are fleeing for their lives from torture and death from those who just want to get teeth implants and IPhone iPads etc and a Rolex and to drivena BMW or Mercedes?

    .

    Would you mind explaining this please?


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    #20
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The issue is however,that "scope" for giving one's views has been significantly narrowed by the change of location.
    ...
    The concept of "Censorship" may well as yet be unjustified,however requiring the Med-Migrant threads move to a far less popular location does'nt,appear to me,to inspire confidence in the neutrality of the modding process.
    Mod Note
    Please remain on-topic, re. Migrants. Discussion of subjects such as censorship and thread movement are for other forums (Help & Feedback) etc.


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    #21
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    For years the left in particular have been complaining about lack of jobs and high unemployment. Now all of a sudden they've changed their tune because of the migrants and now there is a "labour shortage". This is the latest justification for taking in more migrants. It's an outright lie that is appearing all over the media now with nothing to back it up.

    Its like any lie - enough people say it and it becomes true.

    There is a shortage in certain skills - programming, medicine, etc but thats already covered under existing visa regulations. Besides its not like these asylum seekers are being judged on their skill sets anyway.


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    #22
    The Masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭The Masculinist


    Manach wrote: »
    Mod Note
    Please remain on-topic, re. Migrants. Discussion of subjects such as censorship and thread movement are for other forums (Help & Feedback) etc.

    Thanks for proving the point mod, censorship in action. Making it as inconvenient as possible to discuss anything by insisting it gets moved to different forums where less people will see it.


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    #23
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    The Masculinist wrote: »
    Thanks for proving the point mod, censorship in action. Making it as inconvenient as possible to discuss anything by insisting it gets moved to different forums where less people will see it.

    Mod Note
    @Masculinist, please do not post in this thread again. This is not an appropriate thread for what consists censorship and is off topic.


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    #24
    ComfortKid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    I always thought I was a member of the "loony left" untill this week.. I'm as right wing as they come now apparently.


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    #25
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    only morally right we take in some of these people but i just hope we put the same effort into housing our own as we do with these poor folks


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    #26
    ComfortKid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    Nodin wrote:
    Would you mind explaining this please?


    The little boy that drowned in the pic, His father was in Turkey for 3 years, He was trying to make it to Canada via Europe to get new teeth. Seen the video on the last thread.


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    #27
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    What steps are currently being taken by all or any of the recipient countries including Turkey Greece and Hungary to separate and segregate refugees who are fleeing for their lives from torture and death from those who just want to get teeth implants and IPhone iPads etc and a Rolex and to drivena BMW or Mercedes?

    None of the refugees in the recent footage appear to be in dire straits as one might expect of those fleeing in the night from soldiers or marauding gangs of rebels but then if they have been living in safety for months or years in Turkey or Libya they were not in any danger and should possibly have stayed in those relatively safe areas until it is safe for them to return home.
    Because as we know those things are only for the privileged people who happened to be born somewhere else :rolleyes:

    if they want to work hard and get all that I'll take them over a resident sponger any time.


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    #28
    FelineOverLord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭FelineOverLord


    Hi all, I got a month long ban yesterday for pointing out that there's a very high rape rate amongst muslim men, apparently the fact that 5% of Sweden is muslim and 77% of rapes commited there are commited by muslims makes me xenophobic, forgive me for not wanting to live in that kind of country.:rolleyes: I'd like to see the Irish government give an exact break down of what it'll cost for us to take refugees. Keeping in mind that because of the appalling state of our economy we have an exemption from taking any of them.

    I would like to know exactly how many the government are proposing to take, long term not just this round. Exactly how much of the social housing stock will be allocated to them, what exactly it will cost to provide benefits for them, how much will it cost to provide medical services, dental services and education for them. Most importantly where the money for that is coming from? Because it has to come from somewhere and we already have seriously struggling front line services as it is.


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    #29
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    The little boy that drowned in the pic, His father was in Turkey for 3 years, He was trying to make it to Canada via Europe to get new teeth. Seen the video on the last thread.


    I watched the video and it says nothing of the sort. Your version of what it contains differs from that of the person who posted it as well (though his was equally wrong), which is strange. I'd suggest watching it again.


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    #30
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    FelineOverLord wrote: »
    Hi all, I got a month long ban yesterday for pointing out that there's a very high rape rate amongst muslim men, apparently the fact that 5% of Sweden is muslim and 77% of rapes commited there are commited by muslims...............

    You a reliable source for this?


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    #31
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Nodin wrote: »
    You a reliable source for this?

    You probably won't get one.

    The last major study on rape rates based on place of origin conducted in Sweden, that was publically available, was done in the 1990's.


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