3,000-year-old road being destroyed

Qualitymark · 28-08-2015 9:32am #1

According to An Taisce, a prehistoric road of major importance is being destroyed.

http://www.antaisce.org/articles/internationally-important-irish-archaeological-monument-being-destroyed-during-heritage

While Irish heritage is being celebrated and promoted this week, the destruction of a major archaeological monument, a major timber-built road of European significance at Mayne Bog, Coole, County Westmeath is continuing.

The article doesn't explain who's destroying it (?anyone know?) but describes the road:

The monument was a substantial transversely laid plank built roadway.

It was no mere trackway, it measured from 4.3m to 6m in width.

The recorded length of the road was 675m, but it was seen to extend beyond both recorded limits.

A carbon14 date of 1200-820 BC was obtained from the timbers, making it a remarkable structure of Bronze Age date, 1000 years older than the celebrated Corlea Bog roadway in neighbouring County Longford.

Atlantic Dawn · 28-08-2015 9:37am

Sorry to sound harsh but what the hell could be gained from preserving it? It's not as if some fururistic material will be found that can be used to cut the costs on a new motorway build.

Qualitymark · 28-08-2015 9:42am

If you'd like to look at it purely in financial terms, a 3,000-year-old road has almost magical significance for US and other tourists; it could be a major income provider for a poor county, properly managed and marketed.

Look at Kilmainham Gaol. The government of the time when it was brought back into use for tourism were adamantly against the project, which was completed by volunteers. Now it's one of the country's main tourist sites; it would be in first place except that the current government won't allow more guides to be hired and more tourists to be admitted, and in fact wishes to dispense with the learned and expert guides and replace them with earphones droning the preferred PC version of the story.

gingernut79 · 28-08-2015 9:45am

Its not thar far from coole to the existing bog Trackway Centre in Corlea which doesn't get enough visitors to keep its cafe open. Which is a super place, by the way.

Greenmachine · 28-08-2015 9:45am

If it is worth saving, and "An Taisce" Want to save what is the point of "An Taisce".

Qualitymark · 28-08-2015 9:46am

gingernut79 wrote: »

Its not thar far from coole to the existing bog Trackway Centre in Corlea which doesn't get enough visitors to keep its cafe open. Which is a super place, by the way.

Perhaps I'm being egocentric, but the fact that I've never heard of the bog trackway centre in Corlea suggests to me that it's not being marketed well…?

How do you get to that Corlea site by train or bus? Or bike, if you'd give the coordinates?

Edit: ah, a bit north of Athlone. Hard to get to? Need for tour buses to be lured? After all, look at the huge draw that's made of the relatively remote Carrick-a-Rede bridge in the North.

Del.Monte · 28-08-2015 10:19am

The Corlea Trackway has been a farce since day one - a wet dream of some University academics and Charlie Haughey. How you can build an interpretative centre to 'interpret' 18 metres of rotten timber is beyond me.

http://www.heritageireland.ie/en/midlandseastcoast/corleatrackwayvisitorcentre/

They couldn't even manage 4,000 thousand visitors last year: http://www.shannonside.ie/news/slight-drop-in-number-of-visitors-to-opw-sites-in-shannonside-region-last-year/

Qualitymark · 28-08-2015 10:27am

Isn't that the road that an ancient story has Aengus Óg building?

jonniebgood1 · 28-08-2015 11:40pm

, I cannot help thinking what a major piece of engineering the building of the road must have been without modern power tools and tractors. It would have required a great deal of co-operative labour to complete in the time.

The excavated trackway is flat and smooth, seemingly intended for wheeled transport, carts or maybe chariots. Professor Raftery estimated that around 300 large oak trees would have been required for the planking with a similar amount of birch for the rails. He reckoned that it would have taken around a thousand wagon loads. That is a great deal of work to undertake for any community, and suggests that it was regarded as a high-status project.

Yet, in spite of the huge effort in resources and labour, this trackway system would have lasted less than ten years before sinking back into the bog, and it seems possible that this short lifespan was intentional, or at least, unimportant to its builders.

Archaeology can tell us much about this trackway system. We can learn when it was constructed, what materials were used and how they were put together. Archaeology can tell us that the main tracks do not connect to other sites but focus on an island of higher ground nearby. This does suggest that the roads were built for a particular ceremonial event of some importance that took place in or about 148 BCE.

http://storyarchaeology.com/the-corlea-trackway/

Nichard Dixon · 29-08-2015 7:33am

Qualitymark wrote: »

How do you get to that Corlea site by train or bus?

You can go by road.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Edit: ah, a bit north of Athlone. Hard to get to? Need for tour buses to be lured? After all, look at the huge draw that's made of the relatively remote Carrick-a-Rede bridge in the North.

The Carrick-a-Rede bridge is not remote, it forms part of a coastal tour, people would visit the coast even if it was not there.

But, you are correct, the Corlea site should be better marketed.

Qualitymark · 29-08-2015 7:47am

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

You can go by road.

Bit of a cycle from Dublin.

somuj · 29-08-2015 8:00am

I work in Born na mona. Roads like this are plentiful across the midlands. Found another one last year in Roscommon. A group of Archaeologists came out to investigate and found a few statues. That was it. They said we coud continue to work the bog its on. This road was way bigger than the one in the ops link. Was about 5 trees deep too and at least a km long.

They told us they afe everywhere and they cant learn anything new from them.

Barely There · 29-08-2015 8:47am

Qualitymark wrote: »

According to An Taisce,

If An Taisce had their way we'd all be still living in caves.

Professional objectors to pretty much every piece of major infrastructure in the country over the last couple of decades.

They have zero credibility.

jimd2 · 29-08-2015 8:55am

gingernut79 wrote: »

Its not thar far from coole to the existing bog Trackway Centre in Corlea which doesn't get enough visitors to keep its cafe open. Which is a super place, by the way.

I never heard of it, might take a trip over to visit. How big is the centre? Has the cafe closed?

dubhthach · 29-08-2015 9:02am

somuj wrote: »

I work in Born na mona. Roads like this are plentiful across the midlands. Found another one last year in Roscommon. A group of Archaeologists came out to investigate and found a few statues. That was it. They said we coud continue to work the bog its on. This road was way bigger than the one in the ops link. Was about 5 trees deep too and at least a km long.

They told us they afe everywhere and they cant learn anything new from them.

What kinda statues? Wooden?

What I would say about Tóchar's is that at least if they retrieve proper samples from them and thus get radiocarbon dating (C-14) or tree-ring profiles they can be useful.

I recall there was a number of wooden "idols" retrieved from bogs during 19th century, they tend to fit into picture of presence of La Tene influenced items from Iron age.

dubhthach · 29-08-2015 9:04am

Barely There wrote: »

If An Taisce had their way we'd all be still living in caves.

Professional objectors to pretty much every piece of major infrastructure in the country over the last couple of decades.

They have zero credibility.

Strip mining a bog to produce garden compost isn't critical infrastructure tbh.

dubhthach · 29-08-2015 9:16am

The date is interesting, if the timbers are showing radiocarbon dating of 1200-800BC you are talking about "Atlantic Bronze age" period. The whole transition point between Bronze to Iron in Ireland is interesting given that there appears to be an "Archaelogical Dark ages" from about 800-300BC -- with renewed contact from Northern Britain into Leath Cuinn (Northern half of Ireland) in period after 300BC (brining La Tene style items etc.)

In general there seems to be lot of contuinity, some have argued that the arrival of dialects of Proto-Indo-European (and even of Proto-Celtic) is during this period.

Qualitymark · 29-08-2015 9:21am

somuj wrote: »

Found another one last year in Roscommon. A group of Archaeologists came out to investigate and found a few statues.

Statues made 300 years before Christ are of enormous significance in world history.

Barely There wrote: »

If An Taisce had their way we'd all be still living in caves.

Really? What caves do An Taisce preserve? Interesting!

One of the stories of the making of the causeway:

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300012/index.html

Del.Monte · 29-08-2015 9:47am

This thread is in danger of descending into the usual 'An Taisce should be wound up' nonsense. The simple fact is that there have been hundreds of these bog roads discovered by Bord na Mona over the years and there's already one centre to interpret them. They are of little interest to few but academics and meanwhile heritage that people enjoy and can relate to is kept in a hay shed in Howth.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/content/national-transport-museum-survival

dubhthach · 29-08-2015 9:52am

I neither enjoy or relate to P⁊T van's perhaps I'm an anomaly in that regard.

In general though either case reflects to the fact that heritage in this country is usually regarded as a financial burden in way of "progress", that is unless it can be used to milk tourists.

DaveWalsh2020 · 29-08-2015 9:58am

Amazing find.. They should remove it and build a tourist attraction site replicating settlements of the Era using original and replica

Qualitymark · 29-08-2015 10:02am

Del.Monte wrote: »

They are of little interest to few but academics and meanwhile heritage that people enjoy and can relate to is kept in a hay shed in Howth.

Who are these "people"?

I'm interested in both. Not an academic.

Sure, Bord na Móna can destroy all the bog roads and other finds, if that's what you think should be done, and reap the peat moss from the bog. But when it's gone, it's gone; when your grandchildren are asking you about the millennium-old road their people built, you can say "Ah, that old thing? Wasn't any use so we threw it away. If you want to see Celtic stuff go to Salzburg, there's a great museum there."

Del.Monte · 29-08-2015 10:02am

DaveWalsh2020 wrote: »

Amazing find.. They should remove it and build a tourist attraction site replicating settlements of the Era using original and replica

Yep, they should build an OPW centre with talking heads, audio visual displays and waffle by academics stating fiction as fact..oh sorry, but they've already done that at Corlea.

robp · 29-08-2015 3:50pm

somuj wrote: »

They told us they afe everywhere and they cant learn anything new from them.

This is simply not the case. This roads are hugely informative. In many cases these roads can literally chart how ancient Irish responded to environmental change. In a era where we are spending billions to futureproof against climate change understanding how early Irish got through such change is pertinent.

There are many kinds of wetland sites and some are quite simple and are not suitable for museum displays but large examples like Corlea can create powerful exhibits.

ArnoldLayne · 29-08-2015 4:17pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Sorry to sound harsh but what the hell could be gained from preserving it? It's not as if some fururistic material will be found that can be used to cut the costs on a new motorway build.

You don't sound harsh, you sound like a fecking idiot. Who needs history huh? It's not like humans don't forget their mistakes every 7 years or majorly every couple of generations, and that society is completely destroyed because of it.

An obvious example in this area was the lack of preservation of Georgian Dublin, 'progress', pulled the buildings down, and replaced them with crap. 'progress' destroyed Wood quay despite the protests of the Danish Queen at the time at Wood Quay in person... The Irish state would have made at least 100's of millions in extra tourism at the most basic level. And further on, it would have become a major sense of pride for Irish people which = means yep a happier and more industrious nation = which means yep a better place to live, and a better society for all.

I will never understand this blind short term-ism. Me Me Me

P.S. Sent from my iphone... now that really is some amazing leap in... what exactly?

Qualitymark · 29-08-2015 4:52pm

ISIS feel just the same way. "History, schmistory. Knock it down!"

Del.Monte · 29-08-2015 4:52pm

robp wrote: »

This is simply not the case. This roads are hugely informative. In many cases these roads can literally chart how ancient Irish responded to environmental change. In a era where we are spending billions to futureproof against climate change understanding how early Irish got through such change is pertinent.

There are many kinds of wetland sites and some are quite simple and are not suitable for museum displays but large examples like Corlea can create powerful exhibits.

Have you been to Corlea, it's one unbelievable 'bore fest' and I'm a culture vulture. A visit there leaves you clutching your head and running for the exit.

Qualitymark · 29-08-2015 4:54pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Have you been to Corlea, it's one unbelievable 'bore fest' and I'm a culture vulture. A visit there leaves you clutching your head and running for the exit.

Yeah, the Dead Zoo was like that when I was a kid, lots of dead stuffed animals with no explanations other than bits of paper. Burn it down!

Del.Monte · 29-08-2015 4:57pm

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yeah, the Dead Zoo was like that when I was a kid, lots of dead stuffed animals with no explanations other than bits of paper. Burn it down!

Suprisingly, I have visited the Natural History Museum many times and I am quite happy with the way facts and 'real' exhibits are presented. If the Natural History Museum was being created today - which it wouldn't be - it would be with no actual exhbits and artists impressions of what animals might have looked like. Lots of techie hands-on bs.

robp · 29-08-2015 5:05pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Have you been to Corlea, it's one unbelievable 'bore fest' and I'm a culture vulture. A visit there leaves you clutching your head and running for the exit.

I haven't and I was not referring to the actual Corlea centre as it is. Whether or not it is a good visitor centre does not change the fact that prehistoric roads can be impressive and even moving sights.

Del.Monte · 29-08-2015 5:17pm

robp wrote: »

I haven't and I was not referring to the actual Corlea centre as it is. Whether or not it is a good visitor centre does not change the fact that prehistoric roads can be impressive and even moving sights.

So can a pile of old railway sleepers. So come on pull the other one - why do you think Corlea is such a failure some 20 years after it opened? Academics love 'ancient' history as they can expound their views as facts and nobody can haul them up for being factual incorrect. Ancient, so called 'history' especially in Ireland is the preserve of an elite such as Prof.Raftery of UCC and the former Director of the National Museum, Pat Wallace, and their legacy is the total ignoring of more recent history, the hay shed at Howth, the scrapyard at Dromod, Co.Leitrim, the closed down heritage railway at Blennerville, Co.Kerry, the tumbled down Natural History Museum etc. Some legacy.

3,000-year-old road being destroyed

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