Lets talk about the drag "ban" at the Scottish pride event.

Links234 · 22-07-2015 11:51am #1

So, this has been doing the rounds just about everywhere, my facebook feed has had a lot of people freaking out about it, and with good reason too! Everyone is going "OH ****!" and basically going into damage control mode, because this was a decision made so as not to offend trans people... Yeah.

Appropriate Deus Ex meme:

I wanted to get the ball rolling on this topic before anyone else came along, because there's a lot of blame being flung at transgender folks and we're all going "Whoah, hang on a minute!" and if there's one thing I want people to take away from this thread is that we agree, this is stupid. I think it's ridiculous and I don't support it. I would hope that that didn't need saying, but in case it did, I wanted to be absolutely clear on the issue.

However, I would also like to point out that this story is being heavily sensationalized. A lot of people seem to think that this is the main Glasgow Pride, but it's not, it's a separate thing entirely called "Free Pride Glasgow" that is an anti-capitalist alternative because pride has become too commercialized, the whole even sounds like an absolute barrel of laughs as it is, so keep that in mind. And also, they didn't really ban drag (hence the quotes in the thread title) they just aren't having any drag performance at their event. It's a significant distinction, and one I think that needs pointing out, a lot of the news stories surround this are just seriously editorializing here.

But I want to seriously make the point that this is not something transgender people are in support of, we don't want to see drag queens banned from pride, we are (on the whole at least, I really can't speak for everyone) not offended by drag, and if some are offended, they are far from the majority. I apologise if I'm really labouring the point, I just want to be absolutely clear on this. The whole thing reminds me of something I was reading a while ago about a college that banned crossdressing at a halloween party because it may offend trans people, something I thought that was incomprehensibly stupid. Halloween can be one of the only times when it's acceptable for people to publicly crossdress, and for a lot of people who are still in the closet that may be the only time they're comfortable enough to explore things. Banning crossdressing in that or any other situation is a disaster!

Policing anyone's gender expression is just wrong.

BuffyBot · 22-07-2015 12:21pm

There is sensitivity and there is over-sensitivity.

This falls firmly into the latter.

But then the type of people driving this are the kind of people that drive me insane, regardless of gender or sexuality.

J_E · 22-07-2015 12:42pm

The kind of people who go ahead with stuff (in a small minority and not necessarily gender non-conforming at all) like this are the kind of people who while appealing to be people to be more open with new gender identities and types of people, are obsessed with labelling themself every 'correct' term possible and telling people who and what they can and can't be, you can find them on Tumblr and such, usually they need to insist they are X Y Z and all of the rest, and seem to do nothing but concern troll, snipe at anyone who doesn't follow 'the rules' and just enable more isolation and segregation from people who are trying to see on their level. It's exclusivity wrapped up in a cheap facade, and I think it's really bad that it's gained legitimate traction in a few cases, really embarrassing to see adults behaving like that. Even the idea that cisgender drag is generally misogynistic and too horrible for people to watch? Complete irony and an insult to the art. RuPaul gets it wrong on a number of levels but he nailed it when he said that these group of people are so busy policing terms and being insulted that they've forgotten what it's all about.

I do think it's a shame that what could have been a positive safe space or a spotlight for gender nonconforming queens & kings was handled in such a dire way.

Links234 · 22-07-2015 12:52pm

I think it also shows a problem with people getting offended on other people's behalf and how they can get it so very wrong.

wonderfulname · 22-07-2015 2:09pm

Links234 wrote: »

I think it also shows a problem with people getting offended on other people's behalf and how they can get it so very wrong.

Definitely, I'm aware enough of the super safe space anarchist queer type movements and now and then they do overshoot the mark trying to accommodate groups they don't necessarily understand, I'm still waiting to see the line "TW: human experience" crop up on my facebook for how vaguely warned some seem to think people should be over content.

The unfortunate thing is there is generally some genuine topic of interest somewhere underneath that has been misconstrued, bloated and inflamed to such a degree it can no longer be discussed, I don’t really know what it is here, cause I can't stick out much reading on this one, but wouldn't it be great if people just talked about gender presentation and respect, rather than all the giving out.

Drag makes me uncomfortable, only because I'm afraid someone would have the bright idea I should do it, I really shouldn't, I don’t even know what would be drag and what wouldn't, but I can really enjoy other peoples drag personas and how they don't affect me in the slightest.

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 9:39pm

I had really hoped we had moved beyond this type of policing in order to 'protect' from possible 'offense'. But sadly it seems not...

What this whole bruhaha reminds me of is waaaaay back in the 80s when there was a (un)healthy lesbian feminist separatist (or fesbianist as I liked to call it) groove going on. I, as a hormone riddled young dyke was once taken to task for - unconsciously - watching a lovely bottom walk past. I was guilty apparently of objectifying a wombyn's body - I responded with a hearty F Off and stop policing my sexuality I have had enough of the Catholic Church doing that - I ain't taking it from them and I ain't taking it from you.

Moved to London and behold there was war there because the SM Dykes were banned from the Lesbian Pride Parade (which took place the day ( I think) before the main Gay pride). SM Dykes - apparently - perpetuated violence against women and were offensive and potentially upsetting to some. The upshot was a sanitised Lesbian Pride March (no leather :P ) and the most wonderful collection of leather dykes on Bikes lead out the main Pride March. Lesbian Pride died a death shortly thereafter.

This policing BS continued with idiocies like women's clubs banning leather in case #someone got offended. One particular club in Sheffield had the misfortune to try and prevent myself and a friend from going in as we were wearing leather jackets - look on their faces when I said it was purely a race thing because I'm Irish and my friend is Black (at which point she kissed her teeth and twirled her dreadlocks). The looks on the faces of the terribly middle class white English women was hysterical as they desperately tried to work out the calculations on the possible offense-a-meter. I deserve an Oscar for not laughing. We got in. Free.

We have enough pressure to conform to other people's notions of what is and is not acceptable and enough attempts to force us to conform to other people's notions of correct expression of our individual identities without allowing internal policing to take hold.

HamsterFace · 22-07-2015 9:41pm

I don't like drag queens, they're annoying and like a bad 70s comic act, any parade is better without them in my opinion

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 9:55pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

I don't like drag queens, they're annoying and like a bad 70s comic act, any parade is better without them in my opinion

I don't like bald men. They are over testosteroned bad Vin Diesel wannabes and any parade is better without the sun bouncing off their waxed domes.

See - we can all make stupid, sweeping, insulting generalisations.

Here is another one.

I don't like gays. They are whingy and think they are entitled. Why the hell should they have a Parade anyway. Normal people don't get a parade.

How about

I don't like women. Fish. Should be making sandwiches.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 22-07-2015 10:01pm

they didn't really ban drag (hence the quotes in the thread title) they just aren't having any drag performance at their event. It's a significant distinction, and one I think that needs pointing out, a lot of the news stories surround this are just seriously editorializing here.

reminds me of a certain Paddys day parade...

jobbridge4life · 22-07-2015 10:24pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't like bald men. They are over testosteroned bad Vin Diesel wannabes and any parade is better without the sun bouncing off their waxed domes.

See - we can all make stupid, sweeping, insulting generalisations.

Here is another one.

I don't like gays. They are whingy and think they are entitled. Why the hell should they have a Parade anyway. Normal people don't get a parade.

How about

I don't like women. Fish. Should be making sandwiches.

Okay whilst I don't agree at all with the poster you quoted and further agree with that it was generalising the comparison between being a drag queen and gay people is just not appropriate one is a performance the other is living an breathing.

As for the ban I think it is nonsense and I hate the way the world seems to be turning with this claptrap about cultural appropriation. Its divisory and ghettoizing.

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 10:29pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Okay whilst I don't agree at all with the poster you quoted and further agree with that it was generalising the comparison between being a drag queen and gay people is just not appropriate one is a performance the other is living an breathing.

As for the ban I think it is nonsense and I hate the way the world seems to be turning with this claptrap about cultural appropriation. Its divisory and ghettoizing.

Sweeping generalisations are still sweeping generalisations. And having a go is still having a go.

The 'I don't like gay people one... normal people don't have parades' isn't actually mine. It was a 'point' made on one of the many many Marriage equality threads...
and it was a stupid 'point'. As stupid as I hate drag queens as if every single drag queen in the history of drag is interchangeable as they are, in fact, the same person.

I do wonder, however, how that poster feels about drag kings...

jobbridge4life · 22-07-2015 10:34pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sweeping generalisations are still sweeping generalisations. And having a go is still having a go.

The 'I don't like gay people one... normal people don't have parades' isn't actually mine. It was a 'point' made on one of the many many Marriage equality threads...
and it was a stupid 'point'. As stupid as I hate drag queens as if every single drag queen in the history of drag is interchangeable as they are, in fact, the same person.

I do wonder, however, how that poster feels about drag kings...

I know it wasn't yours Bannasidhe, I remember you well from the trenches of those same marriage equality threads and I agree that is stupid but I maintain that it is still qualitatively different to a similar comment regarding gay people.

Saying 'I don't like mime artists they are dumb' is stupid but it isn't the same as saying 'I don't like deaf people'. IMHO.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 22-07-2015 10:38pm

deaf people can be dumb too.....

wakka12 · 22-07-2015 10:38pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

I don't like drag queens, they're annoying and like a bad 70s comic act, any parade is better without them in my opinion

I personally don't mind them..but I think they send a bad message to straight people, just average, non flamboyant people. I hate to think we should change ourselves to appease the straight majority but really I honestly think drag queen make pride events very off putting for a lot of straight people and create more problems than are necessary. We should be trying to show we are normal and not something to be feared by straight people..not trying to distance ourselves from the straight community. And if acting a tad more conservatively and less flamboyant means better acceptance for our minority group then so be it.

jobbridge4life · 22-07-2015 10:42pm

wakka12 wrote: »

I personally don't mind them..but I think they send a bad message to straight people, just average, non flamboyant people. I hate to think we should change ourselves to appease the straight majority but really I honestly think drag queen make pride events very off putting for a lot of straight people and create more problems than are necessary. We should be trying to show we are normal and not something to be feared by straight people..not trying to distance ourselves from the straight community. And if acting a tad more conservatively and less flamboyant means better acceptance for our minority group then so be it.

Couldn't disagree more strongly. Wakka12, and I say this with respect, 'read your history books Kim!'. IF it wasn't for the brave and bold drag queens of the Stonewall Inn, we more than likely would be scrawling these messages to one another on bathroom walls or on the dark net like paedophiles. Appeasement and supplication are what keeps people in closets not what sets people free. Be proud to a be freak because afterall that is what we are on the most basic level.

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 10:43pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I know it wasn't yours Bannasidhe, I remember you well from the trenches of those same marriage equality threads and I agree that is stupid but I maintain that it is still qualitatively different to a similar comment regarding gay people.

Saying 'I don't like mime artists they are dumb' is stupid but it isn't the same as saying 'I don't like deaf people'. IMHO.

Ah - but keep in mind the people who make such comment often believe being gay is a choice. Actually, I know quite a few people who are in long term same sex relationships who will insist they chose to be 'gay', now we can argue that they are 'deluding' themselves (and ohhh how I have....) but that is what they believe/feel and who are we to say they don't know their own feelings.

Mime artists may be dumb - we really have no way of knowing during the performance... :P

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 10:47pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more strongly. Wakka12, and I say this with respect, 'read your history books Kim!'. IF it wasn't for the brave and bold drag queens of the Stonewall Inn, we more than likely would be scrawling these messages to one another on bathroom walls or on the dark net like paedophiles. Appeasement and supplication are what keeps people in closets not what sets people free. Be proud to a be freak because afterall that is what we are on the most basic level.

Exactly.
Pride Marches aren't for straight people to feel comfortable with - they were started to send a very clear 'We're Here. We're Queer. Get Used to it!' message to straight people.

A world without flamboyance sounds like a living hell to me.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 22-07-2015 10:57pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - but keep in mind the people who make such comment often believe being gay is a choice. Actually, I know quite a few people who are in long term same sex relationships who will insist they chose to be 'gay', now we can argue that they are 'deluding' themselves (and ohhh how I have....) but that is what they believe/feel and who are we to say they don't know their own feelings.

I normally believe that bolded bit to be true always, but, IMO, gay people lending any credence to a choice in their sexuality leads to crap like reparative therapy.

Now if you're bi/pansexual but choose to only date one gender because of *insert whatever reason*, that's one thing, but I think we know pretty surely by now that people don't choose their attractions.

As for kowtowing to the straight community during Pride - can't get on board with that at all. That's not what it was ever about.

P_1 · 22-07-2015 11:00pm

Ridiculous decision but to be honest it is being run by a bunch of the worst kind of SJWs (the type who consider any sort of fun to be verboten). No great loss tbh

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 11:12pm

Linda Some Flower wrote: »

I normally believe that bolded bit to be true always, but, IMO, gay people lending any credence to a choice in their sexuality leads to crap like reparative therapy.

Now if you're bi/pansexual but choose to only date one gender because of *insert whatever reason*, that's one thing, but I think we know pretty surely by now that people don't choose their attractions.

As for kowtowing to the straight community during Pride - can't get on board with that at all. That's not what it was ever about.

We are one the same page with this.

Yes - I have no right to try and tell another person what they feel about themselves isn't true (unless it's my nephew who feels he can sing - he can't. It's awful.) Especially since I grew up being told it's a 'phase' and I would feel differently when I grew up. I'm 50 now and still in the phase...

But I have met a great many people - usually women - who will insist they are in a relationship with another woman because all men are bas*ards and it's a political choice. That doesn't sit comfortably with me tbh... but that might be exactly what they are doing...

But back on topic - I love the existence of Drag. I think it is important that drag exists. I think we need drag performers of both genders to mess with gender stereotypes and make us laugh at ourselves. I think drag artists are brave.

I think some drags acts are crap, some can cross lines of taste and in lieu of talent go to a 'ist' place but some comedy acts are crap, some can cross lines of taste and in lieu of talent go to an 'ist' place- that doesn't mean we should 'not engage' any comedy acts.

HamsterFace · 22-07-2015 11:16pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't like bald men. They are over testosteroned bad Vin Diesel wannabes and any parade is better without the sun bouncing off their waxed domes.

See - we can all make stupid, sweeping, insulting generalisations.

Here is another one.

I don't like gays. They are whingy and think they are entitled. Why the hell should they have a Parade anyway. Normal people don't get a parade.

How about

I don't like women. Fish. Should be making sandwiches.

I knew someone would imply homophobia.

I don't like drag queens because they are irritating because, in order to be a drag queen, you where too much make up and are loud and kind of act like your out of a pantomime.

No problem with trans, or cross dressers but don't like drag queens. Don't like macho men either for that matter.

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 11:31pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

I knew someone would imply homophobia.

I don't like drag queens because they are irritating because, in order to be a drag queen, you where too much make up and are loud and kind of act like your out of a pantomime.

No problem with trans, or cross dressers but don't like drag queens. Don't like macho men either for that matter.

I never implied homophobia so you can put that drama Llama back in the cage.

I stated -very clearly - that making sweeping, insulting, generalisations about a group of people is stupid.

A drag queen is a cross dresser who happens to do so in a performance capacity. Still technically cross-dressing.
I think you are also confusing drag queens with Panto Dames - who, technically are also cross-dressers who happen to do so in a performance capacity.

Brendan O Carroll is Dame not Drag.
Panti is Drag.
Danny la Rue was drag and she never wore too much make-up, was loud or acted like she was in a panto - unlike Brendan O Carroll.

The fact that you are not fond of drag is fine - the fact that you believe they shouldn't be allowed in Pride Parades isn't - if it wasn't for the Drag Queens (and the Diesel Dykes) there wouldn't even be Pride Parades.

jobbridge4life · 22-07-2015 11:34pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Actually, I know quite a few people who are in long term same sex relationships who will insist they chose to be 'gay', now we can argue that they are 'deluding' themselves (and ohhh how I have....) but that is what they believe/feel and who are we to say they don't know their own feelings.

If it wasn't for the homophobes and reparitive therapy I'd be more than happy for all gay people to declare it was a choice. After all it would be no more a legitimate choice than heterosexuality.

As an aside what gender are these individuals?

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 11:35pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

If it wasn't for the homophobes and reparitive therapy I'd be more than happy for all gay people to declare it was a choice. After all it would be no more a legitimate choice than heterosexuality.

As an aside what gender are these individuals?

Mostly females but I have met the odd man if you pardon the expression.

HamsterFace · 22-07-2015 11:42pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I never implied homophobia so you can put that drama Llama back in the cage.

I stated -very clearly - that making sweeping, insulting, generalisations about a group of people is stupid.

A drag queen is a cross dresser who happens to do so in a performance capacity. Still technically cross-dressing.
I think you are also confusing drag queens with Panto Dames - who, technically are also cross-dressers who happen to do so in a performance capacity.

Brendan O Carroll is Dame not Drag.
Panti is Drag.
Danny la Rue was drag and she never wore too much make-up, was loud or acted like she was in a panto - unlike Brendan O Carroll.

The fact that you are not fond of drag is fine - the fact that you believe they shouldn't be allowed in Pride Parades isn't - if it wasn't for the Drag Queens (and the Diesel Dykes) there wouldn't even be Pride Parades.

I'll put it to you this way, I wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of drag queens.

I also wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of people in premiership Jerseys.

Just find those type of people to be irritating, you don't have to like everyone. It's OK.

And I don't care if they're in pride, but I'd prefer not personally as I don't see what they add from a civil rights perspective. As you said yourself, they're performance characters.

wonderfulname · 22-07-2015 11:43pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

I knew someone would imply homophobia.

I don't like drag queens because they are irritating because, in order to be a drag queen, you where too much make up and are loud and kind of act like your out of a pantomime.

No problem with trans, or cross dressers but don't like drag queens. Don't like macho men either for that matter.

Nobody implied homophobia.

Your impression of drag queens does not have to be true in the least, but out of curiosity how do you feel about drag kings?

Bannasidhe · 22-07-2015 11:47pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

I'll put it to you this way, I wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of drag queens.

I also wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of people in premiership Jerseys.

Just find those type of people to be irritating, you don't have to like everyone. It's OK.

Would you like to ban people in premiership jerseys from marching in Pride parades too?

Are rugby jerseys ok?

Can we ban people with whistles from Pride Parades? I fecking hate whistles.

Links234 · 22-07-2015 11:50pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

if it wasn't for the Drag Queens (and the Diesel Dykes) there wouldn't even be Pride Parades.

And trans women! Don't forget Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 22-07-2015 11:53pm

Links234 wrote: »

And trans women! Don't forget Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson

If you did that, you'd be doing exactly what the upcoming Stonewall movie is doing!

HamsterFace · 22-07-2015 11:56pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you like to ban people in premiership jerseys from marching in Pride parades too?

Are rugby jerseys ok?

Can we ban people with whistles from Pride Parades? I fecking hate whistles.

If I was organizing the parade and didn't feel they were what the parade was about then I would say so.

But it's not my parade, and I don't really care, just giving my opinion that I don't see why these OTT performance are always tied in with civil rights pertaining to homosexuality.

Anyway, have a nice evening.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 23-07-2015 12:06am

https://freeprideglasgow.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/free-pride-to-welcome-drag-performers/

The original decision was made because many trans members of Free Pride have had negative experiences with drag acts veering towards racism, misogyny and transphobia; the lack of contact with the drag community contributed.

We made a mistake, and we apologise.

Lets talk about the drag "ban" at the Scottish pride event.

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