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Germanwings Airbus A320 crash - Cyber Hijacking?

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  • 24-03-2015 4:40pm
    #1
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭


    It has been suggested by a number of security and aviation experts that a terrorist cyber attack may have been responsible for the downing of MH370 last year. ie hacking into the aircraft's systems feeding it false data or interfering with the navigation software. They've even demonstrated experimentally that an Android phone can be used to access the avionics of a B777.

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/was-missing-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh370-hijacked-using-a-mobile-phone/story-fnizu68q-1226856570824
    http://www.ibtimes.com/new-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-cyber-hijack-theory-emerges-after-vulnerabilities-found-inflight

    Could such a cyber hijack event also be responsible for the crash of the A320 in southern France earlier today? Recently another A320 entered a nose dive but was successfully recovered by the pilots. Perhaps a failed attack or experimentation withe the technique?

    With physical security being so tight in aviation these days, perhaps well resourced terrorist organisations like ISIS and Al Qaeda are moving towards cyber attacks to down aircraft?

    It need not even be non state actors - Communist China has been making steady progress and ramping up their cyber warfare capabilities in recent years. Of course it's not clear what the Chinese would have to gain by downing civilian aircraft.

    Perhaps this is experimentation with the technique to prepare for larger scale attacks, downing perhaps tens or even many hundreds of planes simultaneously to plunge the west into chaos.


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    #2
    fig_roll
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭fig_roll


    "“It is possible for hackers, be they part of organised crime or with government backgrounds, to get into the main computer network of the plane through the in-flight, on-board entertainment system.”"


    No, no it;s not. They are entirely segregated systems.


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    #3
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Chemical Byrne


    Are you an aviation expert if you don't mind me asking? The two experts in those articles are a senior secuirty advisor to the Home Office and an security consultant and former pilot.


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    #4
    Bigus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭Bigus


    fig_roll wrote: »
    "“It is possible for hackers, be they part of organised crime or with government backgrounds, to get into the main computer network of the plane through the in-flight, on-board entertainment system.”"


    No, no it;s not. They are entirely segregated systems.

    Absolutely , otherwise they wouldn't need to go searching for black boxes after accidents.


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    #5
    fig_roll
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭fig_roll


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    Are you an aviation expert if you don't mind me asking? The two experts in those articles are a senior secuirty advisor to the Home Office and an security consultant and former pilot.

    The US Government regulations governing these systems would pretty much make it an impossibility for an aircraft that didn't have separate power and data systems for the IFE and avionics to meet the requirements and therefore make the aircraft impossible to sell as no airline code buy and fly them within US airspace.


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    #6
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Okay.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/13/faa_debunks_android_hijack_claim/
    The research by Hugo Teso involves testing with virtual aircraft in a lab environment, which is not analogous to certified aircraft and systems operating in regulated airspace

    and
    For more than 30 years now, the development of certifiable embedded software has been following strict guidance and best practices that include in particular robustness that is not present on ground-based simulation software.

    and

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-22107433
    Mr Teso built his simulator using spare parts from real jets for sale on the eBay auction site.

    Currently, I don't think you can stand over "it's been done" because it hasn't really been done.

    Secondly, the first of your reports refers to a whole pile of assertions by Dr Sally Leivesley but there is no supporting information in the relevant reports demonstrating that her hypothesis is in fact possible.


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    #7
    eatmyshorts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    It has been suggested by a number of security and aviation experts that a terrorist cyber attack may have been responsible for the downing of MH370 last year. ie hacking into the aircraft's systems feeding it false data or interfering with the navigation software. They've even demonstrated experimentally that an Android phone can be used to access the avionics of a B777.

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/was-missing-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh370-hijacked-using-a-mobile-phone/story-fnizu68q-1226856570824
    http://www.ibtimes.com/new-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-cyber-hijack-theory-emerges-after-vulnerabilities-found-inflight

    Could such a cyber hijack event also be responsible for the crash of the A320 in southern France earlier today? Recently another A320 entered a nose dive but was successfully recovered by the pilots. Perhaps a failed attack or experimentation withe the technique?

    With physical security being so tight in aviation these days, perhaps well resourced terrorist organisations like ISIS and Al Qaeda are moving towards cyber attacks to down aircraft?

    It need not even be non state actors - Communist China has been making steady progress and ramping up their cyber warfare capabilities in recent years. Of course it's not clear what the Chinese would have to gain by downing civilian aircraft.

    Perhaps this is experimentation with the technique to prepare for larger scale attacks, downing perhaps tens or even many hundreds of planes simultaneously to plunge the west into chaos.
    It was rubbish in the other forum, and its rubbish here too.


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    #8
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Chemical Byrne


    Another instrument of the system I think....


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    #9
    eatmyshorts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    Another instrument of the system I think....

    No....just 16 years and 10,500 hours of commercial jet experience. But hey, what would I know?


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    #10
    degrassinoel
    Registered Users Posts: 10,733 ✭✭✭✭degrassinoel


    Before this gets out of hand, new posters to this forum should be aware of our forum charter. Let's keep it civil.


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    #11
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Calina wrote: »
    Okay.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/13/faa_debunks_android_hijack_claim/



    and



    and

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-22107433



    Currently, I don't think you can stand over "it's been done" because it hasn't really been done.

    Secondly, the first of your reports refers to a whole pile of assertions by Dr Sally Leivesley but there is no supporting information in the relevant reports demonstrating that her hypothesis is in fact possible.

    Leivesley is also not an aviation expert by any means


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    #12
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    As a software engineer that has very good connections to security experts it is safe to assume that no system is impenetrable.
    This was one of the older planes, 23yrs I believe. It takes 12 years to design and build a plane. So at the time the technology today was not even in infancy - it was generations behind.
    In the same way that I couldn't hack the wright brothers plane with technology this makes it unlikely.

    Any aircraft that is fly by wire can be physically hacked if you have access to it's cabling. Imagine just cutting the wire, a form of hacking. Take this further and see if you can use the wire to do something else.

    There would be parts of this aircraft that would be updated with newer tech. This could be the attack area. Often closed systems are not as closed as you think. The other lapse is normally things not deemed to be critical, so no need for security. Both can be utilised.

    Although it's true that aircraft systems are extremely well protected I think it's safe to say that with enough resource they are hackable. There hasn't been a open system yet that has withstood a serious attack other than pulling the plug.


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    #13
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    It has been suggested by a number of security and aviation experts that a terrorist cyber attack may have been responsible for the downing of MH370 last year. ie hacking into the aircraft's systems feeding it false data or interfering with the navigation software. They've even demonstrated experimentally that an Android phone can be used to access the avionics of a B777.

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/was-missing-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh370-hijacked-using-a-mobile-phone/story-fnizu68q-1226856570824
    http://www.ibtimes.com/new-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-cyber-hijack-theory-emerges-after-vulnerabilities-found-inflight

    Could such a cyber hijack event also be responsible for the crash of the A320 in southern France earlier today? Recently another A320 entered a nose dive but was successfully recovered by the pilots. Perhaps a failed attack or experimentation withe the technique?

    With physical security being so tight in aviation these days, perhaps well resourced terrorist organisations like ISIS and Al Qaeda are moving towards cyber attacks to down aircraft?

    It need not even be non state actors - Communist China has been making steady progress and ramping up their cyber warfare capabilities in recent years. Of course it's not clear what the Chinese would have to gain by downing civilian aircraft.

    Perhaps this is experimentation with the technique to prepare for larger scale attacks, downing perhaps tens or even many hundreds of planes simultaneously to plunge the west into chaos.

    the second link dismisses what you are proposing.
    The described technique cannot engage or control the aircraft's autopilot system using the FMS or prevent a pilot from overriding the autopilot," the FAA said in a statement following Teso’s demonstration. "Therefore, a hacker cannot obtain 'full control of an aircraft' as the technology consultant has claimed.


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    #14
    degrassinoel
    Registered Users Posts: 10,733 ✭✭✭✭degrassinoel


    I remember watching a film/documentary of blackbox recordings, One in particular was of a crash a few years back - the flight staff had no functional instruments shortly after takeoff or maybe even while attempting to land in bad weather. They were advised to climb and did so even though they had proximity alarms and automated warnings going off everywhere, they seemed to try absolutely everything including asking ATC where the hell they were and what should they do, climb, decend, hold, anything. ATC were as baffled as the crew were. In the end, the plane hit a mountain, no survivors afaik.

    The cause of the crash was determined to be a piece of tape left on the instrumentation equipment that made it give false readings. A simple mistake caused the plane to crash.

    Edit: this film is what i was talking about

    It(this theory) could be explained as something akin to what happened here, but until the flight recorder is found, we're all speculating - a commonality here in CT's.


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    #15
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,694 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    Are you an aviation expert if you don't mind me asking? The two experts in those articles are a senior secuirty advisor to the Home Office and an security consultant and former pilot.

    My father is an Aeronautical Engineer. Got his degree from Embry Riddle in the late 70s and was a hoist operator for the Alaskan coast guard out of high school. He's been in the field for over 30 years and currently is part of the material review board at Boeing's final assembly facility in Charleston SC for the Dreamliner. This was his social media reaction:

    "The Germanwings crash site is one of the worst I've seen. To me it indicates a catastrophic breakup of the airframe structure in flight. Having said that, it was not a sudden disintegration at cruise altitude. Based on what I am hearing, it had to be some type of mechanical failure where the pilots were unable to control the aircraft descent. Possibilities are loss of a critical flight control surface such as the vertical stabilizer [rudder], [or] a computer malfunction, these are all fly by wire and the airbus onboard computer can override the pilot inputs - pilots may have tried fighting the computer [stabilization system] and lost the battle. They have recovered the flight data recorder. That is very good; but now they need to find the cockpit voice recorder to hear the captain and first officer'a last conversation. If there is no talk then it would be a rapid decompression without a chance to don the O2 masks. Very sad."


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    #16
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Overheal wrote: »
    My father is an Aeronautical Engineer. He's been in the field for 30 years and currently is part of the material review board at Boeing's final assembly facility in Charleston SC for the Dreamliner. This was his social media reaction:

    "The Germanwings crash site is one of the worst I've seen. To me it indicates a catastrophic breakup of the airframe structure in flight. Having said that, it was not a sudden disintegration at cruise altitude. Based on what I am hearing, it had to be some type of mechanical failure where the pilots were unable to control the aircraft descent. Possibilities are loss of a critical flight control surface such as the vertical stabilizer [rudder], [or] a computer malfunction, these are all fly by wire and te airbus onboard computer can override the pilot inputs - pilots may have tried fighting the computer [stabilization system] and lost the battle. They have recovered the flight data recorder. That is very good; but now they need to find the cockpit voice recorder to hear the captain and first officer'a last conversation. If there is no talk then it would be a rapid decompression without a chance to don the O2 masks. Very sad."

    was it not the CVR that was found?


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    #17
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    was it not the CVR that was found?

    Yes it was. So far.


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    #18
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,694 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Perhaps not. I personally haven't dove into the details of the tragedy but I don't think king dude would have gotten such a critical detail messed up in his analysis. Possible; unlikely.


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    #19
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Overheal wrote: »
    Perhaps not. I personally haven't dove into the details of the tragedy but I don't think king dude would have gotten such a critical detail messed up in his analysis. Possible; unlikely.


    Defo the CVR. http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-32046257


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    #20
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Overheal wrote: »
    Perhaps not. I personally haven't dove into the details of the tragedy but I don't think king dude would have gotten such a critical detail messed up in his analysis. Possible; unlikely.

    The other point worth raising is that the debris site is comparatively small. This has been used to support the hypothesis that the plane did not break up in the air.


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    #21
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Better link to the recovered CVR here. A bit battered but the right bits seem to be intact. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32046250


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    #22
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,694 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    To clear up some engineering speak: "catastrophic" often means a failure that results in a complete failure of the total system. This doesn't necessarily mean that the fuselage snapped in half or something - even losing something small like a critical flight surface, if it caused a lead-on malfunction in the flight computer, could be labeled as catastrophic/cascading failure. That's what he means when he says that it was probably a catastrophic structure failure in flight but not a "disintegration"


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    #23
    Reg'stoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭Reg'stoy


    Transponder was still transmitting it seems as the ATC controller was able to see the gradual loss of height. He could not contact them which considering they had some power might mean the crew were incapacitated for some reason.

    With fly by wire technology total electrical power failure is virtually impossible. Some systems might fail but for all electrical power to go well.... that truly falls into CT territory.

    Considering no PAN call was made, is indicative of either radio system failure, no change in squawk to reflect this though or complete and almost instant incapacity, would sudden depressuristion be quick enough. Should the aircraft have remained straight and level on autopilot like this one did.

    The flight path seems to suggest a 'controlled flight' into terrain and the weather seems to have been clear so it's not like the autopilot flew them into the ground without the crew noticing. Obvious CT here would be that one of the crew members did it deliberately.

    At least the blackbox and hopefully boxes might help shed light on what happened.


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    #24
    jaykay74
    Registered Users Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭jaykay74


    Haven't seen the names of the pilots released yet. Is that unusual ?


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    #25
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Have a look at the thread in the aviation forum. Seems a pilot couldnt get back into the cockpit. Scary


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    #26
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Chemical Byrne


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    ........Obvious CT here would be that one of the crew members did it deliberately.
    At least the blackbox and hopefully boxes might help shed light on what happened.

    Actually this morning it transpires that the CVR revealed that one of the pilots got up and left the cockpit for whatever reason, he was then locked out of the cockpit while the plane descended and could be heard kicking the door trying to break it down.
    Over on the main thread I was jeered at and called a crackpot conspiracy nutjob when I suggested the possibility of a rogue crew member. They will have to eat their words because I have been vindicated.
    It will be interesting to see what the background of this rogue crew member is, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Terra Lieure (the Catalan separatist terror group) etc. I hope the authorities find something in their home and question his family.


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    #27
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    Actually this morning it transpires that the CVR revealed that one of the pilots got up and left the cockpit for whatever reason, he was then locked out of the cockpit while the plane descended and could be heard kicking the door trying to break it down.
    Over on the main thread I was jeered at and called a crackpot conspiracy nutjob when I suggested the possibility of a rogue crew member. They will have to eat their words because I have been vindicated.
    It will be interesting to see what the background of this rogue crew member is, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Terra Lieure (the Catalan separatist terror group) etc. I hope the authorities find something in their home and question his family.

    Health related issue is also likely. You have not yet been vindicated.


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    #28
    degrassinoel
    Registered Users Posts: 10,733 ✭✭✭✭degrassinoel


    Calina wrote: »
    Health related issue is also likely. You have not yet been vindicated.

    That was my initial thought this morning too, stroke or heart attack


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    #29
    quad_red
    Registered Users Posts: 5,561 ✭✭✭quad_red


    degrassinoel wrote: »
    That was my initial thought this morning too, stroke or heart attack

    Some sort of expert (didn't catch name) on morning ireland claimed that there is a keypad into the cockpit that the crew have the code for. They have to wait 30 seconds then they have a 5 second window to enter the code to gain entry.

    The only way this wouldn't operate would be if the person remaining in the cockpit deliberately locked the cockpit down.

    Which would seem to rule out a heart attack etc. and leave either mental breakdown or deliberate action?


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    #30
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    quad_red wrote: »
    Some sort of expert (didn't catch name) on morning ireland claimed that there is a keypad into the cockpit that the crew have the code for. They have to wait 30 seconds then they have a 5 second window to enter the code to gain entry.

    The only way this wouldn't operate would be if the person remaining in the cockpit deliberately locked the cockpit down.

    Which would seem to rule out a heart attack etc. and leave either mental breakdown or deliberate action?

    Possibly it could. But at the time that chemical byrne suggested the possibility of a rogue crew member the information on the door was not available. so no vindication at all.


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    #31
    quad_red
    Registered Users Posts: 5,561 ✭✭✭quad_red


    quad_red wrote: »
    Some sort of expert (didn't catch name) on morning ireland claimed that there is a keypad into the cockpit that the crew have the code for. They have to wait 30 seconds then they have a 5 second window to enter the code to gain entry.

    The only way this wouldn't operate would be if the person remaining in the cockpit deliberately locked the cockpit down.

    Which would seem to rule out a heart attack etc. and leave either mental breakdown or deliberate action?

    Yeah, seems to be confirmed it was a deliberate action by the CP.


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