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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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    #4352
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    J C wrote: »
    By God he has !!!
    ... and for the scientifically-minded they were Y-Chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve.:)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
    And the funny thing is, they did not live at the same time. In fact, IIRC, they were separated by a time period roughly 5 times longer than you believe the world has been in existence for.
    Gunney wrote: »
    If creation abiogenisis did not happen how did we get here? How did the universe get here?

    FYP.

    MrP


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    #4353
    JohnBee
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭JohnBee


    Gunney wrote: »

    Science cannot say how the universe came to exist or how life came to be. A man called Jesus who claimed to be GOD and got killed for it made a deep impression on me. Because of Him I believe.

    Just to clarify, you BELIEVE that a man called Jesus was apparently killed for his belief in God. This is the part that always gets me. It is a story. Yes, a nice story, and in fact, there may have very well been a historical figure called Jesus. However, we only have the word of what is written in a very old book to guide us on this.

    What is it that makes you take this particular book as sufficient reason to have faith, and yet disregard the many many other equally nice sounding stories of fairies, greek gods, allah and the many other? If I am buying a new car for example and am checking out the different brands. When making my final choice I will often base it on value, reviews, salesperson's pitch, payment options etc. In your case what is it that makes the story sufficient to reject all others (including the story that the Universe exists as is, with no creator). To help us understand, it might be interesting for other posters if you included where you are from and your parent's views.


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    #4354
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    ^^

    it looks like Gunney has been sent to Limbo. Pray hard and you might get him set free

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #4355
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,865 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Remind me, did he open his account before or after Festus was banned? :pac:


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    #4356
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    orubiru wrote: »
    "If God is not responsible... then what is?" I do not know. Nobody knows.

    There are many hypothesis for how life began. Do you have a hypothesis for how God began?

    Seriously, who created God? If God IS responsible for all this then who or what is responsible for God?

    Theology teaches that God has existed for eternity.

    Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began.
    And we'll test that hypothesis when you do so.


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    #4357
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    Theology teaches that God has existed for eternity.

    Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began.
    And we'll test that hypothesis when you do so.

    its not like everyone on the planet has the same creation story and same god. what you are saying is, that theology based on the musings of 3000 year old desert folk who happened to worship a local war/volcano god teaches that.....
    its no different to saying "me old aunt Aggie says....."

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #4358
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    Theology teaches that God has existed for eternity.

    Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began.
    And we'll test that hypothesis when you do so.

    If God existed for eternity, and if, in the context of eternity, 14 billion years is nothing, what was he/she doing before creating the Universe? What was he/she God of, if there was nothing there? Did he suddenly decide "I think I'll go on a creating spree" and Hey Presto, after an eternity of nothingness he suddenly created stuff?


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    #4359
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Safehands wrote: »
    If God existed for eternity, and if, in the context of eternity, 14 billion years is nothing, what was he/she doing before creating the Universe? What was he/she God of, if there was nothing there? Did he suddenly decide "I think I'll go on a creating spree" and Hey Presto, after an eternity of nothingness he suddenly created stuff?

    I wouldn't have a huge problem with that , if a universe is a bubble of sorts , then I guess this universe could be mark 5 or mark a million from a deity's perspective. Or one of an infinite number of universes.
    In the context of the question though I would have an issue with how the 14 billion years have been spent. One would expect the earth to be in the older part of the universe but it isn't so why the billions of years delay for earth? Secondly why let his creation be set back by asteroid strikes which nearly wiped out life on a few occasions? And thirdly why did god not reveal himself to the first humans so let nearly 200,000 years of humans not have the opportunity to know him.? There should be evidence all over Africa of an ancient form of Judaism being practiced right? Cave paintings and the like?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #4360
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    hinault wrote: »
    Theology teaches that God has existed for eternity.

    Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began.
    And we'll test that hypothesis when you do so.

    "Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
    There ya go. That's a good starting point anyways.

    "And we'll test that hypothesis when you do so."
    OK, well good luck with that. The Wikipedia page is a good summary but you've got your work cut out for you if you are gonna test these hypotheses on your own.

    Many, many, many Scientists are currently testing those hypotheses at the moment so maybe you should contact them and tell them not to bother?

    "Theology teaches that God has existed for eternity."
    I look forward to reading your links detailing your hypothesis and showing how scientists are testing that right now.


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    #4361
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    silverharp wrote: »
    I wouldn't have a huge problem with that , if a universe is a bubble of sorts , then I guess this universe could be mark 5 or mark a million from a deity's perspective. Or one of an infinite number of universes.
    In the context of the question though I would have an issue with how the 14 billion years have been spent. One would expect the earth to be in the older part of the universe but it isn't so why the billions of years delay for earth? Secondly why let his creation be set back by asteroid strikes which nearly wiped out life on a few occasions? And thirdly why did god not reveal himself to the first humans so let nearly 200,000 years of humans not have the opportunity to know him.? There should be evidence all over Africa of an ancient form of Judaism being practiced right? Cave paintings and the like?

    I am the same. I don't think there is a huge big deal with the concept of a being creating everything.

    Christianity is not saying "A mysterious being created everything and that's it". They are saying that He answers prayers and has "a plan" for us and sends people to Hell or lets them in to Heaven or blah blah blah.

    If we concede "OK, let's say our Universe was set in motion by an eternal being" then there are an absolute ton of questions that follow directly from that.

    Even if the Universe WAS started by "God" there is still a long long way to go before confirming any particular religions description of God as "accurate and correct".


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    #4362
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    orubiru wrote: »
    I am the same. I don't think there is a huge big deal with the concept of a being creating everything.

    Christianity is not saying "A mysterious being created everything and that's it". They are saying that He answers prayers and has "a plan" for us and sends people to Hell or lets them in to Heaven or blah blah blah.

    If we concede "OK, let's say our Universe was set in motion by an eternal being" then there are an absolute ton of questions that follow directly from that.

    Even if the Universe WAS started by "God" there is still a long long way to go before confirming any particular religions description of God as "accurate and correct".

    Indeed Christians like to ride on the coat tails of an argument which doest really help their case in defending their particular religion being anymore than man made ideas of a primitive society. If a religion simply stated that god created the universe and might come and visit some time in the future and it will be obvious so be excellent to each other and advance mankind and knowledge , it wouldn't be so objectionable. Its the hacking of god that a self proclaimed group of mystics etc seem to get away with across the ages to attempt to control society which is sad

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #4363
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    MrPudding wrote: »
    And the funny thing is, they did not live at the same time. In fact, IIRC, they were separated by a time period roughly 5 times longer than you believe the world has been in existence for.
    I guess that this shows that some Evolutionists aren't very good at maths!!!:D

    ... or indeed working out the logical requirement for a man and a woman (and especially the first man and woman) 'to get it together' in time and space to produce offspring.:)

    ... anyway ... logic seems to be starting to prevail and the latest Evolutionist thinking is that y-Chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve did live contemporaneously.
    ... and apparently had great sex ... and a very large family indeed.:)

    http://www.nature.com/news/genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not-live-too-far-apart-in-time-1.13478
    Quote:-
    "Now, two major studies of modern humans’ Y chromosomes suggest that ‘Y-chromosome Adam’ and ‘mitochondrial Eve’ may have lived around the same time after all."
    A blinding flash of the obvious for all Creation Scientists ... and now being accepted by Evolutionists (all-be-it with their hundreds of thousands of 'evolutionist years' added in).:)


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    #4364
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    orubiru wrote: »
    "Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
    There ya go. That's a good starting point anyways.

    "And we'll test that hypothesis when you do so."
    OK, well good luck with that. The Wikipedia page is a good summary but you've got your work cut out for you if you are gonna test these hypotheses on your own.
    They certainly would have their work cut out for them ... especially since all the wikipedia article contains is some sketchy, vague ideas ... and wishful thinking!!!:)

    orubiru wrote: »
    Many, many, many Scientists are currently testing those hypotheses at the moment so maybe you should contact them and tell them not to bother?
    They'd probably ignore my advice.:D
    orubiru wrote: »
    "Theology teaches that God has existed for eternity."
    I look forward to reading your links detailing your hypothesis and showing how scientists are testing that right now.
    Theology teaches that God is transcendent and the creator of our space-time universe.


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    #4365
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    J C wrote: »
    I guess that this shows that some Evolutionists aren't very good at maths!!!:D

    ... or indeed the requirement for a man and a woman (and especially the first man and woman) 'to get it together' to produce offspring.:)

    ... anyway ... logic seems to be prevailing and the latest Evolutionist thinking is that y-Chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve did live contemporaneously.
    ... and apparently had great sex ... and a very large family indeed.:)

    http://www.nature.com/news/genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not-live-too-far-apart-in-time-1.13478
    Quote:-
    "Now, two major studies of modern humans’ Y chromosomes suggest that ‘Y-chromosome Adam’ and ‘mitochondrial Eve’ may have lived around the same time after all."
    A blinding flash of the obvious for all Creation Scientists ... and now being accepted by Evolutionists (all-be-it with their hundreds of thousands of 'evolutionist years' added in).:)

    J C are we to understand that you don't think evolution happens, or has happened, at all?

    Or do you just think that human evolution is false?

    Can I ask what you think we should teach kids in school? What would you teach your own kids?


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    #4366
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Safehands wrote: »
    If God existed for eternity, and if, in the context of eternity, 14 billion years is nothing, what was he/she doing before creating the Universe? What was he/she God of, if there was nothing there? Did he suddenly decide "I think I'll go on a creating spree" and Hey Presto, after an eternity of nothingness he suddenly created stuff?
    God is transcendent of time and space.

    He has existed for an eternity before this Universe was Created in other dimensions and doing as He wished, in accordance with His omnipotent will.


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    #4367
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    J C wrote: »
    Especially since all the wikipedia article contains is some sketchy, vague ideas ... and wishful thinking!!!:)


    They'd probably ignore my advice.:D

    Theology teaches that God is transcendent and the creator of our space-time universe.

    You'd really need to expand on this.

    I intended the Wikipedia page as a starting point. There are 300+ references there and a load of further reading links.

    I'm sorry but trying to dismiss it as "sketchy, vague ideas and wishful thinking" does not wash with me. You'll need to go into it a bit more.

    Are there specific aspects of evolution you can easily debunk or are you just dismissing all of it? Why?

    What do you mean by "wishful thinking" do you think that the many different academic disciplines that agree on evolution WANT it to be true, rather than having proved it to be true? Very strange thinking.

    I'd like you to show me a link that can give me a better, truer and more detailed description of what actually happened. Would that be OK?


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    #4368
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    orubiru wrote: »
    J C are we to understand that you don't think evolution happens, or has happened, at all?

    Or do you just think that human evolution is false?

    Can I ask what you think we should teach kids in school? What would you teach your own kids?
    Evolution in the sense of natural/sexual selection of pre-existing genetic diversity is a fact.
    Evolution in the sense of a pondkind to makind transition using time and accumulated mistakes ... is a mistake!!!:)

    What we should teach out children is the truth ... in so far as we can evidentially and logically determine it.


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    #4369
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    J C wrote: »
    Evolution in the sense of natural/sexual selection of pre-existing genetic diversity is a fact.
    Evolution in the sense of a pondkind to makind transition using time and accumulated mistakes ... is a mistake!!!:)

    What we should teach out children is the truth ... in so far as we can evidentially and logically determine it.

    I noticed you are using the "pondkind to mankind" phrase again. This does you no favours and implies that you don't actually understand what scientists mean when they talk about evolution.

    Clearly something living in a pond did not give birth to a man. Nobody is claiming that.

    Describing it as "accumulated mistakes" is very disingenuous of you as I am sure that you must know by now that evolution cannot be so easily described, or dismissed.

    I also believe that kids should be taught the truth but you are not presenting anything at all that either falsifies evolution or provides proof of an alternative.

    I am pretty certain that you know a lot more than you let on so I reckon throwing out things like "pondkind to mankind" or "accumulated mistakes" is incredibly dishonest of you.

    The alternative is that you actually don't understand Evolution. If that's true then I'd suggest you keep an open mind and read up on the facts.

    Google "Evolution" that's a good place to start.


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    #4370
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    God is transcendent of time and space.
    He has existed for an eternity before this Universe was Created in other dimensions and doing as He wished, in accordance with His omnipotent will.

    At last, a hypotheses that I can agree with. But that means there was something there before this universe was created, ie; other dimensions. If they exist then we could have been created from them, maybe. It's a great theory.


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    #4371
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    orubiru wrote: »
    "Give us the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
    There ya go. That's a good starting point anyways.

    I don't agree that wiki is a good starting point generally for anything.

    And wiki certainly isn't a good basis for trying to explain what abiogenesis is.

    Is that wiki link your only basis for the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began?
    Surely there are other reference sources that you use to persuade you that abiogenesis is a credible hypothesis?


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    #4372
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    orubiru wrote: »
    You'd really need to expand on this.

    I intended the Wikipedia page as a starting point. There are 300+ references there and a load of further reading links.

    I'm sorry but trying to dismiss it as "sketchy, vague ideas and wishful thinking" does not wash with me. You'll need to go into it a bit more.

    Are there specific aspects of evolution you can easily debunk or are you just dismissing all of it? Why?

    Define for us first what is Evolution?


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    #4373
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    hinault wrote: »
    Define for us first what is Evolution?



    Let this distinguished gentleman tell you all about it.


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    #4374
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Gintonious wrote: »

    Let this distinguished gentleman tell you all about it.

    Lets compare that far fetched account with what REALLY happened;
    A long time ago, probably 10,000 years or so, there was nothing. A god, who ruled over that nothingness decided to create. So he made the earth, with seeds and flowers. He made night and day and was very pleased. Then, after creating night and day, he decided to make two heavenly bodies, the sun and the moon. The sun shone in the day, the moon shone at night. Then he made animals and then his best creation, Man. He took one of the man's ribs and made a woman and they would have lived happily, ever after if it hadn't been for a talking snake who had great powers of persuasion. He persuaded the man to munch into an apple which God told him not to eat. So God threw him out of his lovely garden and told him he was going to die, but not until he made some kids. He made three kids, all boys and one of them killed one of the others and went off to live with another group who we can assume were his sisters, because they made loads of other kids. Then God killed all of them except one family in a big flood where the world was covered in 5 miles of water. The family survived with two of all the animals, except the dinosaurs. They reproduced and we are all desended from them.

    Now THAT is how it happened. Don't mind that Attenborough Twit. He's an atheist!


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    #4375
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    hinault wrote: »
    I don't agree that wiki is a good starting point generally for anything.

    And wiki certainly isn't a good basis for trying to explain what abiogenesis is.

    Is that wiki link your only basis for the hypothesis that you agree with for how life began?
    Surely there are other reference sources that you use to persuade you that abiogenesis is a credible hypothesis?

    Hahaha! Are you kidding me?

    The Wikipedia page alone has over 300 references around 30 "further reading" suggestions and 30+ external links.

    Why do I get a feeling that even going out and getting a PhD in Biology or some related field would not be enough for you?

    Listen, if you are too lazy to educate yourself then fair enough but all you've provided here is "Wikipedia is no good for anything".

    Do you wanna go through the specific references on the page and "debunk" them or shall we just agree that God did it all because that requires less thinking?


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    #4376
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    hinault wrote: »
    Define for us first what is Evolution?

    Read up on it. Why would MY definition carry more weight than a google search result or even a Wikipedia page?

    Here ya go.

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu

    I would like to hear the things that you SPECIFICALLY have a problem with and how those problems logically lead us to understand that God Himself created (or Intelligently Designed, whatever) all the different species on Earth.


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    #4377
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Gintonious wrote: »


    Let this distinguished gentleman tell you all about it.

    Ah, now, I am sure that Youtube is not a good starting point for anything.

    Plus, that's only a 6 minutes and 30 seconds clip would you mind going off and getting a PhD and then coming back to us when you have more reliable references and knowledge?

    It's almost as if you Evolutionists think that complex ideas can be simplified and summarized in order to be understood by people without a postgraduate education. Haha!

    Well, if we can simplify then how's this for a simplification? God Created Everything. I refuse to read up on, or learn about anything that says otherwise.


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    #4378
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    orubiru wrote: »
    Ah, now, I am sure that Youtube is not a good starting point for anything.

    Plus, that's only a 6 minutes and 30 seconds clip would you mind going off and getting a PhD and then coming back to us when you have more reliable references and knowledge?

    It's almost as if you Evolutionists think that complex ideas can be simplified and summarized in order to be understood by people without a postgraduate education. Haha!

    Well, if we can simplify then how's this for a simplification? God Created Everything. I refuse to read up on, or learn about anything that says otherwise.

    You're right, how could I link to a video of SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH explaining life on earth. How utterly stupid of me...


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    #4379
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Gintonious wrote: »
    You're right, how could I link to a video of SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH explaining life on earth. How utterly stupid of me...

    Haha, right?

    This Attenborough guy can't compare to the likes of Ray Comfort...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A


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    #4380
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    orubiru wrote: »
    Haha, right?

    This Attenborough guy can't compare to the likes of Ray Comfort...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A
    They're both very good at presenting information from their own perspective allright.


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    #4381
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    orubiru wrote: »
    Read up on it. Why would MY definition carry more weight than a google search result or even a Wikipedia page?

    Because your reliance upon wikipedia is patent.


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