Why no big Republican split in 86?

DarkyHughes · 10-02-2015 7:38pm #1

Why was there no split in the Republican movement in 86 (okay there was a very small on) but nothing like 69 which was the biggest split since 21. I know there was a lot of reasons why they split in 69 but historically the straw that broke the camels back was to take seats in the Dail, which is what exactly happened in 86 & later Stormont.

Was the split in 69 then due to something else then? The moving towards Marxism-Leninism-Maoism that traditionalists taught even tho they were socialist was to extreme form of Socialism? Or was that the "communists" just weren't militaristic enough to wage a successful campaign?

The_Banker · 11-02-2015 3:25pm

Didnt Republican Sinn Fein come into being as a result of the Provos decision to enter Dail Eireann?

There military wing (Continuity IRA) didnt really get going until after the Provisional cease fire. As the Provos were still attacking the Brits north of the border there was no need for a military off shoot.

That is my memory of it.

riffmongous · 11-02-2015 10:43pm

Regarding the Officials/Provos split you should get a copy of 'The Lost Revolution', maybe they still have it in Easons. It details the history of the old IRA and Officials.

The '86 split might not have been so important at the time but it's legacy is pretty important today with the CIRA still active in some capacity

Arsemageddon · 11-02-2015 11:19pm

This change in SF/IRA policy was influenced by the electoral success of hunger strike candidates in 1981. Danny Morrison fist announced the armalite and ballot box strategy in 1981.

After Adams and co. took over the leadership in 1983 they started laying the groundwork for the end of abstention and made sure that O'Bradaigh and the other old style republicans were slowly isolated.

In 1986 the IRA held their first full army convention since December 1969 and voted to support the ending the SF policy of abstention from the Dail. It was kind of moot at the time because the shinners didn't get a TD elected until 1997.

In short, Adams had learnt the lesson from the previous split and made sure that he had the support of the vast majority of the IRA before making his move, same as he did during the IRA ceasefires in the 90s.

Jesus. · 12-02-2015 8:40pm

A lot of people don't like it but there was incredible skill by Adams to keep Republicanism together and eventually bring them - including most of the extremists - to the table.

Manach · 13-02-2015 9:41pm

As previous poster stated.

Added to that, from my memories of the period on from the book "Terrorism" by Hoff,am, the organisation was under attack by one the global powers of the era. That level of external pressure seemed to have wrought a professional change in the organisation that made it less prone to fracture.

SPM1959 · 13-02-2015 10:11pm

Arm shipments to the PIRA and the prospect of the conflict escalating due to this probably kept most Provos in line.

Also, ROB and co., didn't have the influence of Adams, McGuinness etc. on the army/party at that time.

As you stated yourself there were many reasons for the split in 69 and the circumstances were very different in 86.

DarkyHughes · 14-02-2015 10:28am

riffmongous wrote: »

Regarding the Officials/Provos split you should get a copy of 'The Lost Revolution', maybe they still have it in Easons. It details the history of the old IRA and Officials.

The '86 split might not have been so important at the time but it's legacy is pretty important today with the CIRA still active in some capacity

The CIRA's campaign since they arrived on the scene in 1996 has been largely unsuccessful, pointless & no real strategy. If they think killing a handful of Catholic police every years is going to make the British out their very deluded. They have fairly sophisticated weaponry but seem incapable of using it correctly or to mount an ambush on security patrols something that was bread & butter to the PIRA. I'm guessing the CIRA's recruiting sergeant wasn't very good & recruited idiots who are just bunch of undisciplined fools who don't have qa clue what their doing which is great because they don't have the capability of dragging Ireland back to the old days.

SPM1959 · 14-02-2015 10:49am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The CIRA's campaign since they arrived on the scene in 1996 has been largely unsuccessful, pointless & no real strategy. If they think killing a handful of Catholic police every years is going to make the British out their very deluded. They have fairly sophisticated weaponry but seem incapable of using it correctly or to mount an ambush on security patrols something that was bread & butter to the PIRA. I'm guessing the CIRA's recruiting sergeant wasn't very good & recruited idiots who are just bunch of undisciplined fools who don't have qa clue what their doing which is great because they don't have the capability of dragging Ireland back to the old days.

I'd guess the CIRA's 'recruiting sergeant' as you call him/her, recruited from exactly the same pool of 'idiots' as the Provos did before them. Do you think every PIRA foot soldier had a degree in political science?

I find it bizarre that supporters of the Provo's armed campaign are so dismissive of what the dissidents are doing and hope to achieve. What was the result of the Provo's campaign? British withdrawal - don't think so. Your name sake spoke about the failures of it quite often.

I'm not sure what the religion of the PSNI officers killed by dissidents in recent years has anything to do with it either.

DarkyHughes · 14-02-2015 11:24pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

I'd guess the CIRA's 'recruiting sergeant' as you call him/her, recruited from exactly the same pool of 'idiots' as the Provos did before them. Do you think every PIRA foot soldier had a degree in political science?

I find it bizarre that supporters of the Provo's armed campaign are so dismissive of what the dissidents are doing and hope to achieve. What was the result of the Provo's campaign? British withdrawal - don't think so. Your name sake spoke about the failures of it quite often.

I'm not sure what the religion of the PSNI officers killed by dissidents in recent years has anything to do with it either.

A lot of them did have university degrees yes. In fact MI6 officer Mike Oakley said he was extremely surprised to find the caliber of PIRA Volunteers to be so high.

My name sake & others talked about how they ha to turn people away which allowed them to pick & choose their members, I'm guessing CIRA may just do with who ever the hell comes forward.

My point being if the PIRA could only bring the British to the negotiating table & couldn't force a withdrawal even at the height of all their resources, support & weaponry & carry out attacks nearly on a daily basis for nearly 30 years then it doesn't take a genius to figure out the CIRA aren't going to achieve anything by shooting someone every few years.

Their religion has something to do with it because if they kill a protestant police their afraid they'll trigger a UVF/UDA retaliation attack(s).

SPM1959 · 14-02-2015 11:41pm

They didn't do a good job at picking and choosing then so. According to your name sake Belfast was 'riddled with informers'.

I can't speak for any dissident but I assume (from reading/conversations) that most believe the PIRA campaign could have achieved a lot more that the GFA (Got Fxck all - again according to your name sake) but were sold out by their leadership.

There seems to be a de facto ceasefire in place by the various IRA factions now. I would assume they compare themselves to the IRA between the civil war and outbreak of the troubles and are awaiting until the 'conditions' are right before launching an armed campaign again. History tells me to never write off the potential for republican violence in the future in this country.

I would think the reason Catholic PSNI members have been killed is that they are easier to target as live amongst dissidents in catholic/nationalist areas of the north. It has nothing to do with Loyalists who have degenerated into nothing more than crime gangs and mafia type organisations.

SPM1959 · 14-02-2015 11:59pm

Jesus. wrote: »

A lot of people don't like it but there was incredible skill by Adams to keep Republicanism together and eventually bring them - including most of the extremists - to the table.

Fully agree. This will be studied/written about/discussed in more detail in many years to come.

Every trick in the book was used to keep the hard liners 'on side'. And for the most part it worked - areas like South Armagh remained nearly 100% loyal until the Provos stood down.

There was a big consequences for those who dissented too loudly as well though - example being the killing of a dissident in Belfast in Oct 2000.

SPM1959 · 15-02-2015 12:04am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

A lot of them did have university degrees yes. /QUOTE]

The vast majority got their degrees while in jail. After being recruited into the movement.

The Provos recruited from the poorest and most deprived areas of the north mainly (there will always some exceptions). No need for revisionism.

Jolly Red Giant · 15-02-2015 9:34pm

The primary reason that there was no major split in 1986 is because Adams, McGuinness and the rest of their leadership group lined up all their ducks before moving to dump abstentionism and sideline the O'Bradaigh faction. The strategy of 'immediate war' in the early 70s failed - the 'long war' failed and the leadership made sure that the vast majority of the membership bought into the 'ballot box and armalite' strategy before making the decisive policy shift. The reality is that the 1986 split had been on the cards since the hunger strikes and the realisation that SF could exploit the electoral process.

DarkyHughes · 16-02-2015 6:19pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

They didn't do a good job at picking and choosing then so. According to your name sake Belfast was 'riddled with informers'.

I can't speak for any dissident but I assume (from reading/conversations) that most believe the PIRA campaign could have achieved a lot more that the GFA (Got Fxck all - again according to your name sake) but were sold out by their leadership.

There seems to be a de facto ceasefire in place by the various IRA factions now. I would assume they compare themselves to the IRA between the civil war and outbreak of the troubles and are awaiting until the 'conditions' are right before launching an armed campaign again. History tells me to never write off the potential for republican violence in the future in this country.

I would think the reason Catholic PSNI members have been killed is that they are easier to target as live amongst dissidents in catholic/nationalist areas of the north. It has nothing to do with Loyalists who have degenerated into nothing more than crime gangs and mafia type organisations.

Loyalists have always been nothing more than mafia style gangs. It wouldn't be very hard for them to find 2 members give them AK's & for them to walk into pub shot dead a couple of people in Catholic area & drive away. And they haven't done this for the same reasons dissidents haven't targeted Protestants, they don't wont to get dragged into another long tit-for-tat situation like in the 70's & early 90's.

And I agree with that there's always potential for Republican violence as long there's a core group of Republicans who believe violence is the only answer. But I disagree with them waiting for the right moment to launch a sustainable campaign, because they think the conditions for revolution will ripe in Ireland, atleast not for a long time.

And Brendan Hughes wasn't against stopping the IRA ceasefires, who explicitly in the Boston college interviews his problem was with how the sneaky way they were arranged. Like you said Belfast was "riddled with informers".

SPM1959 · 16-02-2015 8:49pm

The dissidents are targeting Protestants though. Not that I think they are targeting them due to their religion.

What was the religion of David Black - prison officer killed by a dissident IRA group in 2012? The last to be killed by them (not including criminals in the south).

DarkyHughes · 19-02-2015 6:57pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

The dissidents are targeting Protestants though. Not that I think they are targeting them due to their religion.

What was the religion of David Black - prison officer killed by a dissident IRA group in 2012? The last to be killed by them (not including criminals in the south).

A quick google search said he was a member of the OO so I'm guessing Protestant. He must be their first. He was shot on a motorway tho, I don't think they'd risk going into a Loyalist community to target any. Didn't realise it was that recent the last time they killed a security force member, I taught it was 09 or 10.

On a side note I don't think a PSNI officer should be a member of the OO or AOH or any type of bigoted cult like that. It will give communities the wrong impression. Catholics would find it very difficult to trust a officer if they seen him earlier wearing a orange sash & marching in the street. It amazes me people up there would even still want join a cult like the OO even more amazing a PSNI officer would want to join.

SPM1959 · 19-02-2015 11:03pm

I don't know but I would bet the two British soldiers killed in 09 weren't both Catholic. Not that the killers knew/cared.
Stephen Carroll - killed a couple of days later. Are you sure he was Catholic?

They would go to a British army base but a loyalist estate would be off bounds?

I agree about PSNI members being involved in the OO etc. It shouldn't amaze you though as the Orange Order is still a massive part of Protestant culture in that part of the world.

DarkyHughes · 20-02-2015 6:33pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

I don't know but I would bet the two British soldiers killed in 09 weren't both Catholic. Not that the killers knew/cared.
Stephen Carroll - killed a couple of days later. Are you sure he was Catholic?

They would go to a British army base but a loyalist estate would be off bounds?

I agree about PSNI members being involved in the OO etc. It shouldn't amaze you though as the Orange Order is still a massive part of Protestant culture in that part of the world.

Well if there free from loyalist retaliation then they have a massive advantage the Provos never had. If I was a dissident leader I would want to take full advantage of that & plan as much attacks on loyalist business as possible, they clearly have the capacity to do launch alot of attacks . If not whats the point in carrying on a very unpopular armed campaign? If it's just criminality I would want draw attention to my organization by killing police officers & soldiers.

It doesn't amaze that Protestants in NI are still joining the OO no but it does surprise me that PSNI members are still joining. I would have imagined the whole reforming of the RUC would have dealt with these types of problems. I wouldn't Gardai joining the AOH.

SPM1959 · 22-02-2015 4:08pm

Darky, I'm not sure you really understand republican armed campaigns. The 'war' was never with Loyalists, I don't have the numbers to hand but I don't believe the Provos killed too many over a 30 year period either. The dissidents have absolutely nothing to achieve from attacking loyalist businesses.

The point of an unpopular campaign you ask. Bar a couple of brief periods in Irish history every campaign was/is unpopular. Despite what Old IRA and now Provo revisionists say.

DarkyHughes · 23-02-2015 5:05pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

Darky, I'm not sure you really understand republican armed campaigns. The 'war' was never with Loyalists, I don't have the numbers to hand but I don't believe the Provos killed too many over a 30 year period either. The dissidents have absolutely nothing to achieve from attacking loyalist businesses.

The point of an unpopular campaign you ask. Bar a couple of brief periods in Irish history every campaign was/is unpopular. Despite what Old IRA and now Provo revisionists say.

I know it was never with Loyalists but Loyalists attacking random Catholics was a big hindrance to them as it cost them vital support. There was around 90 UDA killed & just over 60 UVF killed. Attacking Loyalists business was apart of what the Provos described as economic warfare, it was to make the state ungovernable.

Yeah but never this unpopular. Parties linked to the Provos (SF) did well when they started contesting elections & could possibly be head of government in the South. Like after 1916 SF sweeped the board. Groups linked to CIRA or RIRA do terrible at the polls, have done since they were formed.

SPM1959 · 23-02-2015 5:19pm

I'll check later to confirm but that number of loyalists killed is inflated I'm sure. Do you have any links to back up those figures?

Revisionism. Sinn Fein were a minority party when the armed campaign was in full swing. 1.6% of the vote in the elections in the south in 1992 and you are telling me that is 'doing well'. No MPs elected in the north that year either which was their main area of support at the time.

Polls are irrelevant to armed republican groups like the CIRA and RIRA. This quote from Gerry Adams sums up their attitude 'The IRA needs no political mandate,it derives its mandate from the presence of the British in the six counties"

Arsemageddon · 23-02-2015 6:07pm

Here's a link for Michael McKeown's research on the CAIN website. There are searchable excel spreadsheets showing who killed who and a pdf copy of Post-Mortem: An examination of the patterns of politically associated violence in Northern Ireland during the years 1969-2001 as reflected in the fatality figures for those years

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/mckeown/index.html

The Sutton Index gives a short account of each known killing during the troubles...
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/

DarkyHughes · 23-02-2015 6:43pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

I'll check later to confirm but that number of loyalists killed is inflated I'm sure. Do you have any links to back up those figures?

Revisionism. Sinn Fein were a minority party when the armed campaign was in full swing. 1.6% of the vote in the elections in the south in 1992 and you are telling me that is 'doing well'. No MPs elected in the north that year either which was their main area of support at the time.

Polls are irrelevant to armed republican groups like the CIRA and RIRA. This quote from Gerry Adams sums up their attitude 'The IRA needs no political mandate,it derives its mandate from the presence of the British in the six counties"

I counted the number up on the sutton index website. The Provos klled the most I forget exactly but it was around the 100 mark. The Officials & IPLO killed 2 each. George Seawright was probably the IPLO's most famous kill.

It's really handy this Cain website. Did you know the UV/UPV planted bombs in Dublin 4 years before the Provos hit London? The UVF actually killed more Loyalists than Republicans.

Well I don't agree with Adams. You need some sort of indicator & the places voting for Sinn Fein were the places hit hard the most by RUC,BA,UDA & UVF, the Falls Crossmaglen, Cappagh etc.... They should have concentrated on socialist rhetoric to gain maximum support for from these beleaguered social areas. Should have got involved in politics sooner. The originals Twomey, MacStafoin,McKee, O'Braidgh etc...said they were continuing the War of independence, well they should have seen & known the 1919-21 war was fought on two fronts. The Volunteers on the military front & the SF on the political/propaganda front, kinda of like a ballot box/armalite strategy of it's time with obvious difference.

Who's Revisionism. Sinn Fein? You mean Official Sinn Fein? Well the Free State had a ban on SF for 25 years so it was very hard to know what they actually wanted when people in the Free State were being fed Kevin "political hatchet man" Myers media. It wasn't until the ban was lifted in 1994 & Gerry Admams beat a 5 man panel FG panel & a hostile host the Late Late Show that they started to rise & for a new party in the South it did pretty well in 1997 & have been increasing hugely since.

DarkyHughes · 23-02-2015 6:48pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Here's a link for Michael McKeown's research on the CAIN website. There are searchable excel spreadsheets showing who killed who and a pdf copy of Post-Mortem: An examination of the patterns of politically associated violence in Northern Ireland during the years 1969-2001 as reflected in the fatality figures for those years

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/mckeown/index.html

The Sutton Index gives a short account of each known killing during the troubles...
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/

Yeah, that what i was talking about.

SPM1959 · 23-02-2015 9:25pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I counted the number up on the sutton index website. The Provos klled the most I forget exactly but it was around the 100 mark. The Officials & IPLO killed 2 each. George Seawright was probably the IPLO's most famous kill.

It's really handy this Cain website. Did you know the UV/UPV planted bombs in Dublin 4 years before the Provos hit London? The UVF actually killed more Loyalists than Republicans.

Well I don't agree with Adams. You need some sort of indicator & the places voting for Sinn Fein were the places hit hard the most by RUC,BA,UDA & UVF, the Falls Crossmaglen, Cappagh etc.... They should have concentrated on socialist rhetoric to gain maximum support for from these beleaguered social areas. Should have got involved in politics sooner. The originals Twomey, MacStafoin,McKee, O'Braidgh etc...said they were continuing the War of independence, well they should have seen & known the 1919-21 war was fought on two fronts. The Volunteers on the military front & the SF on the political/propaganda front, kinda of like a ballot box/armalite strategy of it's time with obvious difference.

Who's Revisionism. Sinn Fein? You mean Official Sinn Fein? Well the Free State had a ban on SF for 25 years so it was very hard to know what they actually wanted when people in the Free State were being fed Kevin "political hatchet man" Myers media. It wasn't until the ban was lifted in 1994 & Gerry Admams beat a 5 man panel FG panel & a hostile host the Late Late Show that they started to rise & for a new party in the South it did pretty well in 1997 & have been increasing hugely since.

I'll have to check myself but as I said I don't believe it's anywhere near that high.

I know about the UVF's bombs in Dublin. I assume you are referring to the 1974 one in Talbot street, the IRA were bombing England at the time so not sure where the 4 years come from.

So what is the indicator? What is the minimum mandate they need? 1% of the population, 5%, 10%? Interested to know your thoughts as that is not a republican viewpoint.

You mentioned the dissidents and polls earlier on in this thread. Gary Donnelly - member of the 32CSM - topped the poll last year in Creggan. Does that give the Reals a mandate to commit attacks in Derry?

I'm very well versed on the history of the Officials - but it is the Provos I'm referring to now and they are following the exact same path. Do you want examples of this? Even that quote from Adams shows the hypocrisy when it comes to current republican violence.

Sinn Fein have increased support in the south since the IRA gave up violence. Do you not see the correlation? Section 31 played a part but Irish people have never over a long period of time supported political violence and this was reflected in Sinn Fein's results.

I don't expect you to get any of the points I'm making by the way.

Addition: Just re-read your post. Sinn Fein were never banned in the south. They were not a new party in 1997 - they were formed in 1905. You really need to learn more about the history or republicanism in Ireland if you want to debate about it.

DarkyHughes · 24-02-2015 6:00pm

SPM1959 wrote: »

I'll have to check myself but as I said I don't believe it's anywhere near that high.

I know about the UVF's bombs in Dublin. I assume you are referring to the 1974 one in Talbot street, the IRA were bombing England at the time so not sure where the 4 years come from.

So what is the indicator? What is the minimum mandate they need? 1% of the population, 5%, 10%? Interested to know your thoughts as that is not a republican viewpoint.

You mentioned the dissidents and polls earlier on in this thread. Gary Donnelly - member of the 32CSM - topped the poll last year in Creggan. Does that give the Reals a mandate to commit attacks in Derry?

I'm very well versed on the history of the Officials - but it is the Provos I'm referring to now and they are following the exact same path. Do you want examples of this? Even that quote from Adams shows the hypocrisy when it comes to current republican violence.

Sinn Fein have increased support in the south since the IRA gave up violence. Do you not see the correlation? Section 31 played a part but Irish people have never over a long period of time supported political violence and this was reflected in Sinn Fein's results.

I don't expect you to get any of the points I'm making by the way.

Addition: Just re-read your post. Sinn Fein were never banned in the south. They were not a new party in 1997 - they were formed in 1905. You really need to learn more about the history or republicanism in Ireland if you want to debate about it.

Nope there was ones in 69. A UVF guy blew himself trying to plant a bomb at RTE HQ. And the trust me man the nu,bers are correct. 91 UDA killed, 62 UVF, 4 RHC, 3, LVF & 2 Ulster Resistance. A huge number of Loyalists actually killed each other more than Republicans did. Another interesting stat is 18 people were killed in mainland Europe. I knew a few undercover BA were killed but I taught it was more like 6 or 7 killed. I suppose I forget about the 3 murdered in Gibraltar.

There's hypocrisy in all violence I'm denying the Provos were at times hypocritical but I do believe looking at all the facts & books I read their campaigned was just about justified. I don't believe the conditions are justified at the moment for the CIRA & RIRA to wage an armed campaign. From the Republicans, British & Loyalists to the US in Vietnam & the VC & NVA fighting them, you'll always find hypocrisy in violent conflicts from all sides.

My point about the Dissidents & Provos is there is no longer a occupation force roaming the streets of the Creggan. There's no need for a military campaign. It shows people aren't happy with the process being made by SF but there's soldiers shooting dead little boys & girls on those streets no more.

You should checkout the book I'm currently reading "Dissidents - Divided We Stand" It's pretty right-wing but I was expecting most books about dissidents to be in the first place but it's still pretty interesting. That's of smaller Republican groups out there, there's one called the Irish Republican Liberation Army (it's like a mix of the INLA & IRA)

SPM1959 · 24-02-2015 7:40pm

I am going to finish my contribution to this thread but as a final note I have to point out.
The reason there are no British soldiers on the streets is there no sustained dissident IRA campaign. They are not needed. If it is ever stepped up again, thousands will be back in no time. There was no British soldiers on the streets of Belfast in 1965.

Please understand, there is no (or more accurate, visible) army presence because the PIRA gave up. It's a simple as that.

Fratton Fred · 25-02-2015 10:49am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Nope there was ones in 69. A UVF guy blew himself trying to plant a bomb at RTE HQ. And the trust me man the nu,bers are correct. 91 UDA killed, 62 UVF, 4 RHC, 3, LVF & 2 Ulster Resistance. A huge number of Loyalists actually killed each other more than Republicans did. Another interesting stat is 18 people were killed in mainland Europe. I knew a few undercover BA were killed but I taught it was more like 6 or 7 killed. I suppose I forget about the 3 murdered in Gibraltar.)

Isn't calling the death of British service personnel a "Killing", but using the term "murder" for the Gibraltar 3 also hypocritical?

You aso forgot Nick Spanos, Stephen Melrose, Heidi Hazell and Nivruti Islania.

Arsemageddon · 25-02-2015 6:19pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Isn't calling the death of British service personnel a "Killing", but using the term "murder" for the Gibraltar 3 also hypocritical?

You aso forgot Nick Spanos, Stephen Melrose, Heidi Hazell and Nivruti Islania.

In the interest of clarity...

Nick Spanos & Stephen Melrose - Australian tourists mistaken for British soldiers, shot dead by IRA in the Netherlands (1990)

Heidi Hazell - German wife of a British soldier, shot dead while sitting in family car with British plates in Germany (1989)

Nivruti Islania - Six month old girl shot along with her father (a British soldier) in a gun attack in Germany (1989)

I would also add to this list Karel Straub a Dutch national killed in March 1979 along with British ambassador to the Netherlands

derry dirtfisher · 25-02-2015 10:19pm

take it down from the mast blueshirt traitors lol if collins hadnt have sold out the troubles wouldnt have happened

Why no big Republican split in 86?

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