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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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    #212
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Sorry, for the literal minded among you, when I said how the world worked, I was using the world to refer to society, the interaction between people, this is what is usually ment when 'the world' is used in the bible. If you thought I ment the physically world, planet earth, then consider your self corrected!
    I am really getting tired of atheists insisting that their literal interpretation of a book they don't believe in, is the correct one. It's not, deal with it and move on!

    Great, I agree with you, genesis isn't a literal account of the creation of the wor....of reality (was about to use the W word, but changed it at the last second). As I've said before, this now means that there is nothing, literally nothing at all, for your religion to point to in order to say "The being we worship, God, this is why we call him the creator of reality and why we say people should worship him"


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    #213
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Sorry, for the literal minded among you, when I said how the world worked, I was using the world to refer to society, the interaction between people, this is what is usually ment when 'the world' is used in the bible. If you thought I ment the physically world, planet earth, then consider your self corrected!
    I am really getting tired of atheists insisting that their literal interpretation of a book they don't believe in, is the correct one. It's not, deal with it and move on!

    Something is either taken literally or it is interpreted. You like to interpret it your way, which is probably as accurate as anyone else's interpretation. i look on it the same way as I look at any other fokelore, from Cu Chulainn to Robin Hood.


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    #214
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Great, I agree with you, genesis isn't a literal account of the creation of the wor....of reality (was about to use the W word, but changed it at the last second). As I've said before, this now means that there is nothing, literally nothing at all, for your religion to point to in order to say "The being we worship, God, this is why we call him the creator of reality and why we say people should worship him"

    Fair point!
    If only it were that simple. Belife is not a concequence of some book, in fact the book came long after the believe had established it's self.


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    #215
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Safehands wrote: »
    Something is either taken literally or it is interpreted. You like to interpret it your way, which is probably as accurate as anyone else's interpretation. i look on it the same way as I look at any other fokelore, from Cu Chulainn to Robin Hood.

    Absolutely, folklore though might be a bit dismissive. I preferred to see religious stories as myth, they tell us what's important to a culture, and give clues to the world view of that culture. Myths also have a shelf life far longer than folk lore. They are primal in a way folk tales are not. DismissDismiss them at your own risk.


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    #216
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Fair point!
    If only it were that simple. Belife is not a concequence of some book, in fact the book came long after the believe had established it's self.

    What evidence, no matter how weak, do you have that the entity you call God created the universe if you don't have a creation story, or don't read the one you have literally?


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    #217
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    What evidence, no matter how weak, do you have that the entity you call God created the universe if you don't have a creation story, or don't read the one you have literally?

    Romeo, I don't know how long you have been reading this thread but in case you missed it, I'm the one saying their is no evidence. That or everything is evidence.
    Do you think anyone believed in God because they saw evidence? It's far more likely they believed first and attributed evidence to this belife.
    I personally believe God is the source of the universe we inhabit, how that came about we don't know, I don't nearly believe we are the purpose of creation, I suspect God has a far more obvious reason for creating a universe that we are aware of only a small portion and for a fraction of the time it's existed than as a test bed for humans. Creation,all of it, is it's own purpose, it gives glory to God and is his expression of himself. Or herself if you prefer.

    Looking for evidence to support God is as pointless as looking for evidence to disprove God. Both start from a position of belief.
    All I can say is if God exists and creator of all that's seen and unseen is one of his properties, then the existence of all that's seen and unseen supports this proposition. On the other hand if you say God donst exist then the universe supports this too, it works exactly as it should without God.

    End of the day....insufficient data to support a definite conclusion! You pays your money and makes your choice!


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    #218
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Romeo, I don't know how long you have been reading this thread but in case you missed it, I'm the one saying their is no evidence. That or everything is evidence.
    Do you think anyone believed in God because they saw evidence? It's far more likely they believed first and attributed evidence to this belife.
    I personally believe God is the source of the universe we inhabit, how that came about we don't know, I don't nearly believe we are the purpose of creation, I suspect God has a far more obvious reason for creating a universe that we are aware of only a small portion and for a fraction of the time it's existed than as a test bed for humans. Creation,all of it, is it's own purpose, it gives glory to God and is his expression of himself. Or herself if you prefer.

    Looking for evidence to support God is as pointless as looking for evidence to disprove God. Both start from a position of belief.
    All I can say is if God exists and creator of all that's seen and unseen is one of his properties, then the existence of all that's seen and unseen supports this proposition. On the other hand if you say God donst exist then the universe supports this too, it works exactly as it should without God.

    End of the day....insufficient data to support a definite conclusion! You pays your money and makes your choice!


    OK then. No evidence either way.
    "..you makes your choice." Based on what?
    Why do you believe. Why do you choose to believe?
    Why do you want to believe?
    If you want this - what need do you have to make you choose to believe?
    I could probably put this better - no offence - but what's in it for you?


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    #219
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    indioblack wrote: »
    I could probably put this better - no offence - but what's in it for you?

    What is in it for all who believe in God is the hope of eternal life.

    Without God there is no logic, mercy or justice as matter alone cannot give rise to these things.

    As for the present, I would rather live in a world run by Catholics than a world run by atheists, especially if the atheists in this forum are anything to go.


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    #220
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    What is in it for all who believe in God is the hope of eternal life.

    Without God there is no logic, mercy or justice as matter alone cannot give rise to these things.

    As for the present, I would rather live in a world run by Catholics than a world run by atheists, especially if the atheists in this forum are anything to go.

    Of course there is logic mercy and justice , and as for a world run by Catholics - well you had that opportunity for over a 1000 years and didn't make too good a job of it , particularly towards those not in your club.


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    #221
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Of course there is logic mercy and justice.

    How does matter alone give rise to logic, mercy and justice?


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    #222
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    as for a world run by Catholics - well you had that opportunity for over a 1000 years and didn't make too good a job of it , particularly towards those not in your club.

    expound please?


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    #223
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    How does matter alone give rise to logic, mercy and justice?

    Humans are matter and are quite capable of logic mercy and justice


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    #224
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Humans are matter and are quite capable of logic mercy and justice

    Yes, because they were created by God and have a God given soul.

    Animals on the other hand were also created by God but without souls and while I have seen animals learn I have yet to see an animal display any understanding of logic, mercy or justice.

    However, you still have not explained how matter can give rise to logic, mercy and justice. All you have done is make a statement about humans and as humans are Gods creation you have added nothing.


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    #225
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    expound please?

    Cathars ,marranos,witches,The Sack of Magdeburg ,St.Bartholomew's Day Massacre,Crusades, Index Libormum Prohibitorum, and right up to Franco and his Concordat and Mcquaid and his constitution and onto Child abuse , Magdalene laundries .

    No thanks


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    #226
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    Yes, because they were created by God and have a God given soul.

    Animals on the other hand were also created by God but without souls and while I have seen animals learn I have yet to see an animal display any understanding of logic, mercy or justice.

    However, you still have not explained how matter can give rise to logic, mercy and justice. All you have done is make a statement about humans and as humans are Gods creation you have added nothing.

    In your opinion .

    However as I see no need for God in the equation I am content to believe my own experience .And that is that humans (matter)do create justice,mercy,logic.


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    #227
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    However as I see no need for God in the equation I am content to believe my own experience .And that is that humans (matter)do create justice,mercy,logic.

    But how?

    By your reckoning we are no different from any other animal but if that is the case why do other animals not display these charactaristics?


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    #228
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Cathars ,marranos,witches,The Sack of Magdeburg ,St.Bartholomew's Day Massacre,Crusades, Index Libormum Prohibitorum, and right up to Franco and his Concordat and Mcquaid and his constitution and onto Child abuse , Magdalene laundries .

    No thanks

    Magdalene Laundries - Protestant origination, not Catholic.

    Child abuse - homosexuals abusing post pubescent boys and covered up by homosexual bishops and homosexual friendly heirarchy - take it up with the LGBT lobby

    that'll do for now as these are the most recent. I'll deal with your historical aberations later.


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    #229
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Cathars ,marranos,witches,The Sack of Magdeburg ,St.Bartholomew's Day Massacre,Crusades, Index Libormum Prohibitorum, and right up to Franco and his Concordat and Mcquaid and his constitution and onto Child abuse , Magdalene laundries .

    Cathars - they behaved like the present ISIS and the response was proportionate.

    Marranos - carried out under the order of the King of Spain. Some humans can be evil. **** happens. No reason to blame the Church for the actions of some members. That's a bit like blaming God for the Holocaust.

    Witches - Protestant primarlily. I accept that there were some Catholics involved but they were different times. I guess you like to hold a grudge, but then again you do have a feminine handle so not entirely unexpected. Live and let live is not quite your style.

    The Sack of Magdeburg - seriously, in an age without email and the word doesn't get through in time. Get real. War sucks!

    St.Bartholomew's Day Massacre - again, the actions of a King. Compared to Obama and his drone strikes, no big deal. Heck, there was even a war on at the time. In times of war, **** happens.

    Crusades - come on. There were a lot of crusades. Just throwing the Crusades out there is a bit if a sweeping generalisation. Not to mention the fact that if the Crusades never happened you would probably be a Muslim atheist and keeping your head down for fear of losing it. Just sayin... (because free speech allows me too and it's really really annoying)

    Index Libormum Prohibitorum - give me a break. Have you seen what Obama is doing to the First Amendment? Even in Ireland you cannot say that same sex marraige is wrong without someone calling you a homophobe and you want to argue about a historic prohibition on certain books. Wake up!


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    #230
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    Cathars - they behaved like the present ISIS and the response was proportionate.

    Marranos - carried out under the order of the King of Spain. Some humans can be evil. **** happens. No reason to blame the Church for the actions of some members. That's a bit like blaming God for the Holocaust.

    Witches - Protestant primarlily. I accept that there were some Catholics involved but they were different times. I guess you like to hold a grudge, but then again you do have a feminine handle so not entirely unexpected. Live and let live is not quite your style.

    The Sack of Magdeburg - seriously, in an age without email and the word doesn't get through in time. Get real. War sucks!

    St.Bartholomew's Day Massacre - again, the actions of a King. Compared to Obama and his drone strikes, no big deal. Heck, there was even a war on at the time. In times of war, **** happens.

    Crusades - come on. There were a lot of crusades. Just throwing the Crusades out there is a bit if a sweeping generalisation. Not to mention the fact that if the Crusades never happened you would probably be a Muslim atheist and keeping your head down for fear of losing it. Just sayin... (because free speech allows me too and it's really really annoying)

    Index Libormum Prohibitorum - give me a break. Have you seen what Obama is doing to the First Amendment? Even in Ireland you cannot say that same sex marraige is wrong without someone calling you a homophobe and you want to argue about a historic prohibition on certain books. Wake up!

    What a crock of <snip>, with ye its always the other guy was worse .

    Thankfully in this country and the West generally your day is rapidly closing , so we can just ignore you and not be imprisoned or burned at the stake or fired from our jobs or our books banned or 'put to the question' as your crowd quaintly calls it


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    #231
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    Magdalene Laundries - Protestant origination, not Catholic.

    Child abuse - homosexuals abusing post pubescent boys and covered up by homosexual bishops and homosexual friendly heirarchy - take it up with the LGBT lobby

    that'll do for now as these are the most recent. I'll deal with your historical aberations later.

    Jeez, some rationalisation and avoiding of responsibility there, all couched in homophobic language ! Not much Logic ,Mercy and above all, Justice in your attitude is there ?


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    #232
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Festus wrote: »
    Magdalene Laundries - Protestant origination, not Catholic.

    Child abuse - homosexuals abusing post pubescent boys and covered up by homosexual bishops and homosexual friendly heirarchy - take it up with the LGBT lobby

    that'll do for now as these are the most recent. I'll deal with your historical aberations later.

    Firstly, post reported.

    Secondly, what an odious post. I actually baulked at the content, let's go through it and why you're wrong:

    Magdalene Laundries - where the idea originated seems irrelevant and just an attempt to deflect any blame. Amazing for a religion that is culturally and historically at odds with one of it's offshoots, Catholicism seemingly embraced the originally Protestant idea of the laundries? To be perfectly clear - at some point someone in the Catholic hierarchy either observed or was told about the laundries and thought it would work in solving the relatively common problem of 'fallen women'. So responsibility lies not with the originator but with those that implemented the reprehensible idea.

    Child abuse - as has been stated and shown in many threads in A+A, pedophilia and homosexuality are not linked. The gender of the abused does not reflect the sexual gender preference of the abuser, pedophilia is a warped attraction to pre pubescent children. The reasons it was covered up was for the Catholic Church to save face and prevent scandal in order to avoid costly court cases and compensation claims. Your slur against the lgbt community is unfounded and requires a more detailed explanation, what exactly has paedophilia got to do with the lgbt community? I suggest you withdraw that disgusting comment.


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    #233
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Wow, Festus has just gone off the deep end. So I see some homophobic language, but also this
    I guess you like to hold a grudge, but then again you do have a feminine handle so not entirely unexpected.

    Oh and Festus? About you not seeing animals display logic or mercy? Check these out



    http://www.livescience.com/24800-animals-emotions-morality.html

    Festus, your comments are why I and the others here are extremely wary of any suggestion that the world should be run according to catholicism. I'll be reporting your comments, literally the first time I've done so since I joined boards.


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    #234
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Magdalene Laundries - Protestant origination, not Catholic.

    Child abuse - homosexuals abusing post pubescent boys and covered up by homosexual bishops and homosexual friendly heirarchy - take it up with the LGBT lobby

    that'll do for now as these are the most recent. I'll deal with your historical aberations later.

    Less of the inflamatory language.

    Child abuser and homosexual are not interchangable terms.

    Please remember this in any future postings.

    Thanks for your attention

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #235
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Festus wrote: »
    Yes, because they were created by God and have a God given soul.

    Animals on the other hand were also created by God but without souls and while I have seen animals learn I have yet to see an animal display any understanding of logic, mercy or justice.
    You should look up research on chimpanzees, they understand logic, mercy and some forms of basic justice. Mercy and justice aren't a huge advantage outside of your own communal group. Most animals will show signs of mercy and justice within their own group (if they're a social animal) but there's no advantage to showing mercy or justice to other species. humans barely show mercy to creatures other than themselves. Just about any creature uses logic on a daily basis.
    However, you still have not explained how matter can give rise to logic, mercy and justice. All you have done is make a statement about humans and as humans are Gods creation you have added nothing.
    Evolution explains those all those things.
    Festus wrote: »
    By your reckoning we are no different from any other animal but if that is the case why do other animals not display these charactaristics?
    We aren't that different for other mammals, you can find characteristics of humans in other species of animals and visa versa. Mammals are the same basic machine with a different layout we have more in common with the rest of the mammals than we have differences. Just about every human characteristic can be found in some form or another in other animals. There isn't anything particularly unique to humans we just have more elaborate version of common brain functions.


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    #236
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    I guess you like to hold a grudge, but then again you do have a feminine handle so not entirely unexpected. Live and let live is not quite your style.

    Less of the sexist and inflamatory posting.

    "Attack the post, not the poster".

    Thank you for your attention

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #237
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    IT-Guy wrote: »

    Child abuse - as has been stated and shown in many threads in A+A, pedophilia and homosexuality are not linked. The gender of the abused does not reflect the sexual gender preference of the abuser, pedophilia is a warped attraction to pre pubescent children. The reasons it was covered up was for the Catholic Church to save face and prevent scandal in order to avoid costly court cases and compensation claims. Your slur against the lgbt community is unfounded and requires a more detailed explanation, what exactly has paedophilia got to do with the lgbt community? I suggest you withdraw that disgusting comment.

    I never said anything about pedophilia.


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    #238
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Festus wrote: »
    I never said anything about pedophilia.

    How have you ascertained the sexuality of the perpetrators of the multiple counts of sexual abuse?


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    #239
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How have you ascertained the sexuality of the perpetrators of the multiple counts of sexual abuse?


    from the facts. The majority of the abuse was carried out by male priests on teenage boys. If a male priests is sexually attracted to teenage boys that suggests that the priest is homosexual.


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    #240
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Facts About Priestly Sexual Abuse

    Now that Pope Francis has set up a commission to study priestly sexual abuse get your facts straight:


    Myth: Children have been the main victims of priestly sexual abuse.
    Fact: Since more than 95 percent of all the victims of priestly sexual abuse are not prepubescent, that means that adolescents have been the primary victims.


    Myth: Pedophile priests have been the problem.
    Fact: Homosexual priests have been the problem. Proof: 81 percent of the victims have been male, and more than 95 percent have been postpubescent. When males have sex with postpubescent males, it is called homosexuality.


    Myth: The problem is on-going.
    Fact: The homosexual scandal took place mostly between the mid-1960s and the mid-1980s. In the last ten years, the average number of credible accusations made against 40,000 priests is in the single digits.


    Myth: The Church’s repressive teachings on sexuality are the problem.
    Fact: It was liberals outside the Church who pushed for the sexual revolution, and it was liberals in the Church who abetted the revolution in the seminaries. Moreover, it was liberals who promoted therapy as the way to deal with molesters, instead of using punitive measures.


    Myth: The Church has done nothing about the problem.
    Fact: Pope Benedict XVI made it more difficult for active homosexual priests to enter the priesthood, thus getting directly to the source of the problem. Also, steps have been taken in every diocese to ensure that anyone who works for the Church must participate in a training program aimed at curtailing the abuse of minors.


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    #241
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Festus wrote: »
    Cathars - they behaved like the present ISIS and the response was proportionate.

    Marranos - carried out under the order of the King of Spain. Some humans can be evil. **** happens. No reason to blame the Church for the actions of some members. That's a bit like blaming God for the Holocaust.

    Witches - Protestant primarlily. I accept that there were some Catholics involved but they were different times. I guess you like to hold a grudge, but then again you do have a feminine handle so not entirely unexpected. Live and let live is not quite your style.

    The Sack of Magdeburg - seriously, in an age without email and the word doesn't get through in time. Get real. War sucks!

    St.Bartholomew's Day Massacre - again, the actions of a King. Compared to Obama and his drone strikes, no big deal. Heck, there was even a war on at the time. In times of war, **** happens.

    Crusades - come on. There were a lot of crusades. Just throwing the Crusades out there is a bit if a sweeping generalisation. Not to mention the fact that if the Crusades never happened you would probably be a Muslim atheist and keeping your head down for fear of losing it. Just sayin... (because free speech allows me too and it's really really annoying)

    Index Libormum Prohibitorum - give me a break. Have you seen what Obama is doing to the First Amendment? Even in Ireland you cannot say that same sex marraige is wrong without someone calling you a homophobe and you want to argue about a historic prohibition on certain books. Wake up!
    You know Festus, the way are posting, throwing muck about in every direction, hoping bits will stick, in an effort to defend the God you believe in, makes me realise that if this is what needs to be done to justify his/her existence, then if your supernatural being does exist, I want nothing to do with them. You are welcome to that type of deity. I will stick with the traditional idea of love thank you very much!


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