Abortion Discussion

redfacedbear wrote: »

Anybody watching Spiral, the rather entertaining French crime series, currently showing on BBC4 on Saturday nights?

The main female cop is pregnant and does not want to be. However as she is past 15 weeks gestation she cannot avail of an abortion in France. Her solution? 'Do what everyone else does' and go to Holland.

Probably unsurprising but interesting that we are not the only country to cynically export our 'problem' abortion issues.

I take your point, but I think there is a huge difference between Ireland, where a woman must be literally dying before she is allowed an abortion, and a country having any time limits at all, even though that will always leave some women who find themselves outside it.

And let's remember it's a fiction - I mean how likely is it that a woman will go to A&E for unexpected bleeding when she hasn't had a period for 15 weeks? Wouldn't she just assume it was her period? She hardly thought she was through the menopause, did she? That was I was thinking anyway, watching it! So really all the dialogue around that, while interesting, is to be taken with a pinch of salt, IMO.

volchitsa wrote: »

Hang on, did I miss something there - I thought her ex was talking about the grass they had stolen on them, and actually didn't have a clue that she was pregnant?

Or do you mean someone else said that? Her partner, Gilou? I know the doctor in the hospital told her most women her age would consider it a gift, but I don't remember which of the other characters said it?

I do agree about Tintin being a useful counter foil to her dilemma though, absolutely.

Great drama, I love it.

(And if you missed Saturday, you really missed a major major event. You need to download it ASAP!!!)

Oh yeah, it was Gilou, but I think he's another ex isn't he? Yeah, the ex in this program is the one she's not talking to. I remember now!

Shrap wrote: »

Oh yeah, it was Gilou, but I think he's another ex isn't he? Yeah, the ex in this program is the one she's not talking to. I remember now!

(Is he an ex? I only discovered Spiral about 2 and a half series ago, and never saw more than bits of the previous ones. They weren't an item for as long as I've been watching, though it looked to me at one point that Gilou was attracted to her but didn't act on it. But maybe they had a fling before that?)

Shrap wrote: »

Oh feck! Ok :eek:

Definitely before watching next Saturday's if possible. It was at the end of the second epi if you're short of time and have to choose. But both are definitely worth watching.

We need someone who has watched it from the beginning then!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057359252
here's the thread, maybe we should ask...

redfacedbear wrote: »

Oh absolutely, 'I'm sorry, you're too late you'll have to go elsewhere' would be far more preferable to hear than 'This might seriously and permanently harm you but it won't kill you so you'll have to go elsewhere.'

I'm sure there is a lot of dramatic licence in play (to engineer a situation where she ends up wanting to keep the baby I suspect) but I assume the 15 week issue is based in fact.

I believe France, like a number of countries, has two definitions of abortion, with different rules of access etc, including time limits. One is abortion on request (something the UK doesn't have theoretically at least) and the other is for medical reasons. Presumably she was too late for the first of those.

Ah guys!! SPOILERS FFS!! We don't expect to see the plot of a show being discussed on this thread and weren't expecting it

Thanks volchitsa!

I just had a conversation with a lady whose daughter gave birth quite recently after being in the most horrendous pain for 6 weeks - couldn't sit down, couldn't lie down, couldn't sleep, could barely eat, couldn't be given x, y or z drugs because of the "baby", couldn't be delivered early because of the "baby", and so much more that I couldn't go into here. The now granny is seriously considering making a complaint to the hospital but said that she knows from talking to the doctors that it was all about the needs of the "baby" not the mother.

Happened in a hospital that should be more circumspect based on recent history too!

Just another incubator situation.

Now just to clarify, the mother didn't want an abortion, but she did want an early delivery because of serious health issues that she herself was experiencing. No dice.

secondrowgal wrote: »

Thanks volchitsa!

I just had a conversation with a lady whose daughter gave birth quite recently after being in the most horrendous pain for 6 weeks - couldn't sit down, couldn't lie down, couldn't sleep, could barely eat, couldn't be given x, y or z drugs because of the "baby", couldn't be delivered early because of the "baby", and so much more that I couldn't go into here. The now granny is seriously considering making a complaint to the hospital but said that she knows from talking to the doctors that it was all about the needs of the "baby" not the mother.

Happened in a hospital that should be more circumspect based on recent history too!

Just another incubator situation.

Now just to clarify, the mother didn't want an abortion, but she did want an early delivery because of serious health issues that she herself was experiencing. No dice.

That's exactly the sort of thing that needs to be brought to people's attention, 2ndrowgirl. In the UK, the woman is the patient, and has the final say in her health care. In Ireland, the fact is that we know that isn't the case.

I think many people just presume (hope?) there's no difference in how they'll be treated in Ireland compared to other countries until they find themselves on the wrong end of the legal situation. I remember reading about Praveen Halapannavar, who said that of course they knew there was no abortion in Ireland - but that they had never thought that could apply to them, because they believed it was about women who didn't want a baby, rather than women whose health was affected by a pregnancy.

But of course when it happens it's too late for the woman concerned. Which is why it's all the more crucial for people to speak out about these things even when, as in this case, it doesn't end in tragedy - luckily for the woman concerned. But IMO women need to start asking difficult questions before they find themselves in a vulnerable situation, depending on the hospital to make the right decisions for them. It may make it less likely that doctors will just presume they are entitled to ignore the woman as though she were too stupid to know what is being done to her.

secondrowgal wrote: »

Ah guys!! SPOILERS FFS!! We don't expect to see the plot of a show being discussed on this thread and weren't expecting it

Oh crap! Really sorry! Just watched Saturday's episodes now - Wow. You should watch this. Fantastic.

secondrowgal wrote: »

Thanks volchitsa!

I just had a conversation with a lady whose daughter gave birth quite recently after being in the most horrendous pain for 6 weeks - couldn't sit down, couldn't lie down, couldn't sleep, could barely eat, couldn't be given x, y or z drugs because of the "baby", couldn't be delivered early because of the "baby", and so much more that I couldn't go into here. The now granny is seriously considering making a complaint to the hospital but said that she knows from talking to the doctors that it was all about the needs of the "baby" not the mother.

Happened in a hospital that should be more circumspect based on recent history too!

Just another incubator situation.

Now just to clarify, the mother didn't want an abortion, but she did want an early delivery because of serious health issues that she herself was experiencing. No dice.

Poor woman. Genuinely hope the now granny (thankfully all safe, but she must have been bricking it in respect of the cases that are coming to light more now) has a bit of capital behind her so she can bring it further if necessary.

Unfortunately, that's what these cases will take. Every SINGLE time I hear about the "baby" being put before the mother's health, I remember the first time my mother (English, gave birth to me here) told me that if there had been a complication, the doctors would have saved me and let her die. I was horrified (as you would be - she sometimes told me inappropriate for age things) but I'm still horrified. That was in 1972.

Add to this scenario that I was born a few days after Bloody Sunday, my mother was English and she was ignored from admission until delivery, the chances that my mum wouldn't have made it under a complicated delivery were high. I'm not saying things haven't changed, but by fcuk they haven't changed enough. Are we still in the "baby comes first" age? What is so different actually about "nationality comes first"? Essentially, the Irish state would still rather let a grown woman die than the baby she's birthing.

Not bitter at all, me. NOooo. Not me :mad:

Actually, just out of interest and given my post above, I wonder can any of you ..em..."pro-life" fellas imagine what it must be like as a girl growing up knowing this, and going on to have children in our country?

Of course, the answer is that you can't, but if you're not kidding yourselves beyond the realms of possibility then you must be able to imagine the fear and the disgust at the potential choices the realms of the state will take over you. There are girls growing up now who will become mothers one day. They will look back and remember that the possibility remains that their dead bodies could be desecrated for their baby in this country.

Think on that.

volchitsa wrote: »

(PS I put a link earlier to the thread about Spiral if you're interested)

Cheers, spotted it! Will join in now that I'm up to date.

secondrowgal wrote: »

Ah guys!! SPOILERS FFS!! We don't expect to see the plot of a show being discussed on this thread and weren't expecting it

Sorry

Shrap wrote: »

Actually, just out of interest and given my post above, I wonder can any of you ..em..."pro-life" fellas imagine what it must be like as a girl growing up knowing this, and going on to have children in our country?

Of course, the answer is that you can't, but if you're not kidding yourselves beyond the realms of possibility then you must be able to imagine the fear and the disgust at the potential choices the realms of the state will take over you. There are girls growing up now who will become mothers one day. They will look back and remember that the possibility remains that their dead bodies could be desecrated for their baby in this country.

Think on that.

I'd imagine that outside of a psychopathic minority, if pro-lifers were able to empathise with girls/women fearing an unwanted pregnancy, they wouldn't be pro-life at all.

Some women are being treated for cancer while pregnant.

In my experience, your choices can often boil down be being a) in certain hospitals and b) able to go private. This is purely my anecdotal experience, but if we have another I will beg, borrow and steal to go private under my preferred consultant. I felt I had a lot more choice about having a second c section, which I wanted, and I chose the day to have by baby. Circumstances altered this plan, but in the end I got the birth I wanted.

There are other hospitals I wouldn't want to be treated in and certain doctors in the hospital I'd return to that I will request not to be treated by if I am pregnant again. I started a thread in the pregnancy forum on anomaly scans because I am still hearing of women who don't get them at 20-22 weeks, and I can't help but think, based on the hospitals that don't offer them as routine, that one of the reasons is that women will start demanding services like termination for FFA here instead of being told there is no choice but to continue a pregnancy.