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'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong
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Armstrong has done more harm to cycling than any other person in the history of the sport.
Pro road cycling is a busted flush, I would guess that any one that wins an event is doping and at least half the peloton en masse is drugged even today.
What I can't understand is that some people here and thousands on the continent follow and watch it and still get up in arms when faced with the truth.
There will be some here that will defend the indefensible. I followed cycling for many years and also deluded myself about some of the Irish greats of the sport who i no longer doubt were doping.
Sometimes you just have to stop and look at the evidence and the reality and admit that you follow a distorted and corrupted sport.
That can be said for almost any sport. Football has been shown time and gain to be totally corrupt. From the awarding of the world cup, to the match fixing in Italy, Marseille in France, betting syndicates. Cricket has a particular problem. Baseball and American football are rife with drugs. Horseracing has had a few high profile scandals the last few years. Rugby is the next to fall I believe.
Athletics is totally discredited, east european athletes have been known to be drugged for years. We even had the case recently of the violinst who basically cheated her way to get sufficient points to get the skiing in the winter olympics.
You can't honestly believe with the massive amounts of money in football that footballers are not trying things! Hell, diving is now an acceptable part of the 'game'.
So enough with the moralising that cycling is in some way worse than other sports. They may have chosen the route of drug taken in a bid a gain unfair advantage but is that really any different from the myriad of other underhanded and illegal ways in which other sports operate.
I look at all sport for what it is, entertainment. Good to watch, fun to cheer for the winning team, but in the end just a spectacle to take us away from normal day to day issues and lets us focus on a dream. I still watch pro cycling, but I don't feel any connection to any of it. I watch it for what I see in front of me, I don't try to build them up to be any more than they are.0 -
I'd say cycling even during its worst years to me would be less distorted and corrupt than the sick farce now of professional football - and I had the sense to stop watching pro-cycling during its worst years. In terms of modern physiques, rugby doesn't exactly fill one with confidence in its purity, & I'd say given how few doping scandals there seems to have been in both those sports, this points to an almost total disinterest in unearthing such goings-on rather than clean sports. Regardless though of doping or not, soccer is a different kind of distortion, & virtually beyond parody. Though there are doubtless plenty who would focus on cycling instead being a busted flush.0
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NoI'd say cycling even during its worst years to me would be less distorted and corrupt than the sick farce now of professional football - and I had the sense to stop watching pro-cycling during its worst years. In terms of modern physiques, rugby doesn't exactly fill one with confidence in its purity, & I'd say given how few doping scandals there seems to have been in both those sports, this points to an almost total disinterest in unearthing such goings-on rather than clean sports. Regardless though of doping or not, soccer is a different kind of distortion, & virtually beyond parody. Though there are doubtless plenty who would focus on cycling instead being a busted flush.
Football is a completely different world and it is an irrelevant comparison.0 -
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NoDo you mean different as in no doping?
Of course not , I am certain there is doping but not on the same scale . I mean it is just so massively bigger and all the regions are autonomous and standards vary across them . Europe and the Americas I would believe are fairly clean ,whereas the Caribbean region is so corrupt Russia wouldn't compare .
But basically it is like comparing an elephant to a mouse , though I wouldn't be surprised if we had a scandal coming that would rock the foundations .0 -
Yes, but he's still greatDo you mean different as in no doping?
NO different in that doping is part of the sport and is widely accepted from Chelsea players taking blood transfusions to aid recovery, to other players taking hormone treatment to help them grow taller.
Its not hidden, it is in the public domain, none of them seem to care. Its a boring sport for me so I don't seem to be bothered, the same way I don't expect non cycling fans to be bothered by doping in cycling. Arsene Wenger is the only senior person in soccer and all he managed to say was that if you think there is no one doping in soccer it is ludicrous, statistically ludicrous.
Rugby itself seems to have a high level of doping and recreational drug use, they seem to be attempting a clean up in rugby union but I find it hard to believe the low levels of positive tests at international tests, would love to know the number of tests at international level as it seems to be left up to the internal countries board eg ISC with no apparent regulations on number and frequency of tests. I know that a French journalist has made links and claims but I would be interested in the truth as I am interested in Rugby.
I would like to see it stamped out there as, much like Armstrong, it may come down to the better doctor rather than the better athlete which ruins it for me.0 -
Of course not , I am certain there is doping but not on the same scale . I mean it is just so massively bigger and all the regions are autonomous and standards vary across them . Europe and the Americas I would believe are fairly clean ,whereas the Caribbean region is so corrupt Russia wouldn't compare .
But basically it is like comparing an elephant to a mouse , though I wouldn't be surprised if we had a scandal coming that would rock the foundations .
If we agree to say it is demeaning to one's dignity to watch a sport riddled with doping - as cycling particularly in the Amrstrong era where the drugs were also so powerful they were distorting completely the reality of who were the best . . . that all in all what one was watching was a defilement of any meaningful truth - which I presume was Buck65's point. And as I said I stopped watching pro-cycling when it became obvious to me how corrupted it was. I'd still consider the reality of modern pro-football and its total surrender to a kind of insane capitalism to be at a far higher level of distortion & meaninglessness. Hooray, some clubs owned by some billionaires with nothing to do with the place the club represents are playing footballers with no connection to that club hundreds of thousands a week to be watched by millions of people most of whom have no connection to the place of that club. Meanwhile the economies of the world are in serious sh.. What matter, lets watch our heroes making up to around £250,000 or so a week. In terms of Bread and Circuses that takes some beating.
And that to add is before one even starts to go into the doping side of things. I remember Juve were the best side in Europe for a while in the 90s, & it came out they had a very comprehensive doping methodology. Did the footballing world & fans particularly care? Didn't seem like it.0 -
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NoIf we agree to say it is demeaning to one's dignity to watch a sport riddled with doping - as cycling particularly in the Amrstrong era where the drugs were also so powerful they were distorting completely the reality of who were the best . . . that all in all what one was watching was a defilement of any meaningful truth - which I presume was Buck65's point. And as I said I stopped watching pro-cycling when it became obvious to me how corrupted it was. I'd still consider the reality of modern pro-football and its total surrender to a kind of insane capitalism to be at a far higher level of distortion & meaninglessness. Hooray, some clubs owned by some billionaires with nothing to do with the place the club represents are playing footballers with no connection to that club hundreds of thousands a week to be watched by millions of people most of whom have no connection to the place of that club. Meanwhile the economies of the world are in serious sh.. What matter, your heroes are on £250,000 a week. Sane stuff.
Completely different subject, and I agree with you on the oligarchs buying clubs/Premiership Hype/ etc On the player salaries- No ,as long as they can pull 65k into Old Trafford or 90k into the Bernabeu I prefer the players get the money rather than the Glazers or Abramovichs .
But whatever about organisational issues you can take it that the scoreline Brazil 1 Germany 7 or Liverpool 3 Milan 3 were fairly arrived at on the field of play . And no matter how unlikely and extraordinary those results were every sports fan accepted them .
I cannot watch any Tour even still and trust what I am seeing , same for most of the Olympics - and that is the greatest damage the cheaters have inflicted on sport .If you don't have credibility you have nothing , and as far as I am concerned Cycling and Athletics have none0 -
NoOf course not , I am certain there is doping but not on the same scale . I mean it is just so massively bigger and all the regions are autonomous and standards vary across them . Europe and the Americas I would believe are fairly clean ,whereas the Caribbean region is so corrupt Russia wouldn't compare .
But basically it is like comparing an elephant to a mouse , though I wouldn't be surprised if we had a scandal coming that would rock the foundations .
marienbad,
I can assure you the sport of American football has doping on a scale massively larger cycling. Just because the media you follow may not report this, does not mean it's not true.
The clue to who is worst: follow the money. If you want to rank doper sports, begin with the NFL and work your way down.
The various soccer federations will be included in this long list. Remember Operación Puerto? The doc at the center of that investigation was indignant that only cyclists had been named and said he also worked with tennis and football players (wiki).0 -
But whatever about organisational issues you can take it that the scoreline Brazil 1 Germany 7 or Liverpool 3 Milan 3 were fairly arrived at on the field of play . And no matter how unlikely and extraordinary those results were every sports fan accepted them .
I cannot watch any Tour even still and trust what I am seeing , same for most of the Olympics - and that is the greatest damage the cheaters have inflicted on sport .If you don't have credibility you have nothing , and as far as I am concerned Cycling and Athletics have none
In terms of players' salaries, I think a world has gone very, very sick with the discrepancies between ordinary people and those kind of earnings & it renders the idea of football being the game of the people a total joke. The bridge between the 2 has been sundered completely.
As for "you can take it that the scoreline Brazil 1 Germany 7 or Liverpool 3 Milan 3 were fairly arrived at on the field of play . And no matter how unlikely and extraordinary those results were every sports fan accepted them." As I mentioned in an add-on to my post, for instance Juve had a very organised doping policy in the 90s that actually came to light & went to the courts, so I don't think it makes sense to just blindly state that doping has no place in football & what you see is what you get. The amounts of money in football utterly dwarf cycling & to just assume a sport where cheating in front of people's eyes is basically accepted is clean behind the scenes . . . I don't get that.
Here's a few quotes from an article on that Juve story:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-drug-scandal-that-blackens-the-name-of-juves-team-of-the-nineties-6156776.html
"Last Friday in Turin's Palazzo di Giustizia, Judge Giuseppe Casalbore sentenced Agricola to 22 months in jail for supplying Juventus players with performance-enhancing drugs, including the banned blood-boosting hormone erythropoietin (EPO), between 1994 and 1998. Agricola was also barred from practising medicine for 22 months and fined €2,000 (£1,390).A third defendant, Giovanni Rossano, a pharmacist accused of supplying drugs on bogus prescriptions, agreed a plea bargain with the court and had a five-month custodial sentence reduced to a €5,000 fine.
When investigators raided the club they found 281 different types of drug. As Gianmartino Benzi, medical adviser to Guariniello, put it, "the club was equipped like a small hospital".
Among the drugs used were Voltaren, an anti-inflammatory and pain killer, which was used by 32 players. The drug is widely used in football to treat isolated injuries but Muller said that at Juventus the usage was not occasional but planned, continuous and substantial.
Samyr, a powerful anti-depressant, was taken by 23 players, even though "none of these players showed any signs of depression", according to Muller. Neoton, a drug used to protect the heart, was taken by 14 players.
If anything the testimony of leading haematologist Giuseppe d'Onofrio appeared even more sensational. He said that it was "practically certain" that midfielders Antonio Conte and Alessio Tacchinardi had taken EPO to overcome brief bouts of anaemia, and "very probable" that seven other players - Alessandro Birindelli, Alessandro Del Piero, Didier Deschamps, Manuel Dimas, Paolo Montero, Gianluca Pessotto and Moreno Torricelli - had taken EPO in small doses."
Does anyone seriously imagine Juve were/are unique or that under the kind of people who run FIFA, with large numbers of people making very, very large amounts of money, there is real & effective interest in rocking such an infinitely lucrative boat?0 -
NoCompletely different subject, and I agree with you on the oligarchs buying clubs/Premiership Hype/ etc On the player salaries- No ,as long as they can pull 65k into Old Trafford or 90k into the Bernabeu I prefer the players get the money rather than the Glazers or Abramovichs .
But whatever about organisational issues you can take it that the scoreline Brazil 1 Germany 7 or Liverpool 3 Milan 3 were fairly arrived at on the field of play . And no matter how unlikely and extraordinary those results were every sports fan accepted them .
I cannot watch any Tour even still and trust what I am seeing , same for most of the Olympics - and that is the greatest damage the cheaters have inflicted on sport .If you don't have credibility you have nothing , and as far as I am concerned Cycling and Athletics have none
What a joke. Football it totally distorted by money, far worse than the doping problem in cycling.
Just to take one of your examples, Milan v Liverpool, a major part of them reaching a European Cup final is they had the money to do so. That is the distortion right there. No club without serious money has a chance of winning anything major in football, there is no level playing field. A level playing in football would be like the NFL system with drafts or salary caps where no one can just buy their way to success.
To give a hypothetical comparison, if Contador beats Valverde in a race, that is the end result just like in football and very real, but how they achieved that result is another matter. They both might have doped but one still beat the other so the result is real.
Money=financial doping.0 -
Nomarienbad,
I can assure you the sport of American football has doping on a scale massively larger cycling. Just because the media you follow may not report this, does not mean it's not true.
The clue to who is worst: follow the money. If you want to rank doper sports, begin with the NFL and work your way down.
The various soccer federations will be included in this long list. Remember Operación Puerto? The doc at the center of that investigation was indignant that only cyclists had been named and said he also worked with tennis and football players (wiki).
No assurance needed , I know well about American sport ,so much so that I don't follow them and haven't for 20 years .Can we any longer even class them as a sport ? And I need no lessons either in the money aspect , but the fact of the matter is when you watch the World Cup Final,Champions League Final ,F.A. Cup Final you and I and the whole world tunes in and we believe the result and we believe it was arrived at fair and clean - do you disagree with that ?
Now ask yourself the same question about the Tour or the Olympic 100m final ? And that is the greatest damage the dopers have inflicted and I am not too sure there is a solution , sure people still tune in but in a passive kind of a way .
Just my 2p worth and I don't want to derail the thread0 -
NoNo assurance needed , I know well about American sport ,so much so that I don't follow them and haven't for 20 years .Can we any longer even class them as a sport ? And I need no lessons either in the money aspect , but the fact of the matter is when you watch the World Cup Final,Champions League Final ,F.A. Cup Final you and I and the whole world tunes in and we believe the result and we believe it was arrived at fair and clean - do you disagree with that ?
Now ask yourself the same question about the Tour or the Olympic 100m final ? And that is the greatest damage the dopers have inflicted and I am not too sure there is a solution , sure people still tune in but in a passive kind of a way .
Just my 2p worth and I don't want to derail the thread
No, the result is unfair as only those teams with money have a chance of reaching the final, money has tilted the chances in their favour.
Man City/Chelsea average teams before money, top teams with money. How can you not see that as equal to doping. Those who don't have the money can equate to those who don't dope. No chance.0 -
NoFr D Maugire wrote: »No, the result is unfair as only those teams with money have a chance of reaching the final, money has tilted the chances in their favour.
Man City/Chelsea average teams before money, top teams with money. How can you not see that as equal to doping. Those who don't have the money can equate to those who don't dope. No chance.
Sure to a certain extent , but that has always been the case and in every sport , you don't see too many African cyclists swimmers rowers or tennis players either and that is mainly down to money.
As for Man City/Chelsea I already said the oligarchs and the Premier league are a travesty but still there are not dominating that much. What one Champions League between them ? And The premier League is only one competition out of hundreds . The new financial rules will make for interesting times and are an attempt to balance the financial issues .
But what do you do when your marquee events in a sport have questionable results for 15 years ? There has been nothing like it, ever.0 -
Sure to a certain extent , but that has always been the case and in every sport , you don't see too many African cyclists swimmers rowers or tennis players either and that is mainly down to money.
As for Man City/Chelsea I already said the oligarchs and the Premier league are a travesty but still there are not dominating that much. What one Champions League between them ? And The premier League is only one competition out of hundreds . The new financial rules will make for interesting times and are an attempt to balance the financial issues .
But what do you do when your marquee events in a sport have questionable results for 15 years ? There has been nothing like it, ever.
I directed you towards the case of Juventus, the dominant European team of the mid 90s, and their comprehensive doping practices. What did you do, like the vast majority of those interested in football? You've completely ignored it. See no evil . . .
As for making out money doesn't dominate in football - whether from an oligarch or not . . . Totally baffling.0 -
NoI directed you towards the case of Juventus, the dominant European team of the mid 90s, and their comprehensive doping practices. What did you do, like the vast majority of those interested in football? You've completely ignored it. See no evil . . .
As for making out money doesn't dominate in football - whether from an oligarch or not . . . Totally baffling.
I didn't ignore Juventus like you are making out and nowhere am I saying money dos'nt dominate football . Money dominates all sport.
As for being a devotee of football - totally incorrect , I follow virtually all sport except US sports and stuff like Horse racing etc . Football would not even be my 3rd or 4th choice sport. It was not I made the initial comparison.
Rather than face head on the evil in your own sport you are just lashing out at every other sport. Just to put this in perspective - the single biggest sporting event in the world is either the FIfA World Cup or the Olympics , the 3rd biggest is the Euros , 4th South American ,5th African nations, the rugby world cup is moving up but I don't think it is in the top 5 yet.
All those competitions,(with a touch of major scandal now and then) have huge credibility and universal acceptance of the results .Cycling on the other hand at what ? one fiftieth the size has questionable results on every race over a period of 15 years . There is simply no comparision0 -
I didn't ignore Juventus like you are making out and nowhere am I saying money dos'nt dominate football . Money dominates all sport.
As for being a devotee of football - totally incorrect , I follow virtually all sport except US sports and stuff like Horse racing etc . Football would not even be my 3rd or 4th choice sport. It was not I made the initial comparison.
Rather than face head on the evil in your own sport you are just lashing out at every other sport. Just to put this in perspective - the single biggest sporting event in the world is either the FIfA World Cup or the Olympics , the 3rd biggest is the Euros , 4th South American ,5th African nations, the rugby world cup is moving up but I don't think it is in the top 5 yet.
All those competitions,(with a touch of major scandal now and then) have huge credibility and universal acceptance of the results .Cycling on the other hand at what ? one fiftieth the size has questionable results on every race over a period of 15 years . There is simply no comparision
You're talking utter nonsense. The Olympics has huge credibility & acceptance of results?! By who? Total morons? Has it been drug-riddled affected this credibility much would you say? I and others have shown how devoid of dignity & meaningful credibility modern football is but that's seemingly irrelevant because it has huge credibility.
I also said I earlier I stopped watching pro-cycling during its worst period for over 10 years. The reason I have mentioned the 'credibility' or lashed out at other sports is because of the stupidity of people pointing the finger at cycling whilst seemingly under the delusion that the sports closer to their hearts are fine to wallow in - like the fiasco of modern football.
Just to reiterate what you're coming out with - cycling "has questionable results on every race over a period of 15 years" whereas the Olympics has by comparison huge credibility. Good God.0 -
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NoYou're talking utter nonsense. The Olympics has huge credibility & acceptance of results?! By who? Total morons? Has it been drug-riddled affected this credibility much would you say? I and others have shown how devoid of dignity & meaningful credibility modern football is but that's seemingly irrelevant because it has huge credibility.
I also said I earlier I stopped watching pro-cycling during its worst period for over 10 years. The reason I have mentioned the 'credibility' or lashed out at other sports is because of the stupidity of people pointing the finger at cycling whilst seemingly under the delusion that the sports closer to their hearts are fine to wallow in - like the fiasco of modern football.
Just to reiterate what you're coming out with - cycling "has questionable results on every race over a period of 15 years" whereas the Olympics has by comparison huge credibility. Good God.
'first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye'
Too much anger and ad hominem here , lets leave it . It is probably for another thread anyway.0 -
"marienbad wrote: »
All those competitions,(with a touch of major scandal now and then) have huge credibility and universal acceptance of the results .Cycling on the other hand at what ? one fiftieth the size has questionable results on every race over a period of 15 years . There is simply no comparision
I don't see athletics as credible, there are 2 big doping scandals at the moment, most 100m sprinters in the record books have tested positive at some point in their careers or been suspected of doping. Justin Gatlin was nominated for IAAF athlete of the year after 2 doping bans, think that speaks volumes about the sport.
I read an Armstrong interview where he said that USADA were able to walk in and investigate cycling relatively easily. Do agree with him that their job would be a lot more difficult if they were investigating one of the big money sports. Very little testing is done in sports like tennis, football etc when compared to cycling.0 -
NoI don't see athletics as credible, there are 2 big doping scandals at the moment, most 100m sprinters in the record books have tested positive at some point in their careers or been suspected of doping. Justin Gatlin was nominated for IAAF athlete of the year after 2 doping bans, think that speaks volumes about the sport.
I read an Armstrong interview where he said that USADA were able to walk in and investigate cycling relatively easily. Do agree with him that their job would be a lot more difficult if they were investigating one of the big money sports. Very little testing is done in sports like tennis, football etc when compared to cycling.
I don't see athletics as credible either , even worse historically than cycling. Yes definitely agree with you on the big money sports as you call them .
But we can only go on what we know and not what we suspect. The further test will be how a sport handles it when a big scandal does break , will they follow through or cover up. Both cycling and athletics (imo) dismally failed that test and thus virtually destroyed their sports .
As for football - at the last world cup 2 random players per match were tested right up to and including Messi in the final I think .0 -
NoSure to a certain extent , but that has always been the case and in every sport , you don't see too many African cyclists swimmers rowers or tennis players either and that is mainly down to money.
As for Man City/Chelsea I already said the oligarchs and the Premier league are a travesty but still there are not dominating that much. What one Champions League between them ? And The premier League is only one competition out of hundreds . The new financial rules will make for interesting times and are an attempt to balance the financial issues .
But what do you do when your marquee events in a sport have questionable results for 15 years ? There has been nothing like it, ever.
The new finanancial rules will make the sport even more lop-sided as it will ensure the big clubs get bigger whilst the smaller clubs will rot away. I actually follow football but view it as no different than cycling. There is only one real factor in who wins in football and that is money. Yes, there might be a few clubs but they all have the money.
You seem to accept there is no level playing field in football but somehow that is ok because that is always how it has been. That might be somewhat true but before it was possible for smaller clubs to challenge, just look at the likes of Derby County, Nottm forest way back. No, the money that has come into football over the last 20 years has made it one of the biggest joke sport's there is. It is just that it is the most popular that nobody wants to look at it as such.0 -
NoI don't see athletics as credible either , even worse historically than cycling. Yes definitely agree with you on the big money sports as you call them .
But we can only go on what we know and not what we suspect. The further test will be how a sport handles it when a big scandal does break , will they follow through or cover up. Both cycling and athletics (imo) dismally failed that test and thus virtually destroyed their sports .
As for football - at the last world cup 2 random players per match were tested right up to and including Messi in the final I think .
When other sports come under the level of police scrutiny that cycling has, then we can talk about equality. Remember the dark underside of cycling was only revealed when the French police went on the rampage during the Festina affair. That was a fluke, you can be guranteed if it was football, it would have been buried again.
Cycling developed its bad rep then and it has become the punchbag ever since. In the Operation Puerto investigation back in 06, there were apparently hundreds of athletes involved from various sports including tennis and football. The only names ever revealed to the public were cyclists. How did that happen?
Josip Guardiola, lauded Barcelona and Bayern coach has tested positive for Nandrolone, a steroid. Is that even mentioned in the press and the guy is worshipped and idealised everywhere. That alone should reflect the difference in media treatment of cycling and football. A guy with a positive drug test and he is the big hero.
Cycling is no different that any other sport, it just had the misfortune or fortune to have the police get involved in it's affairs. Let everyone else believe in the fairytale that any other sport is different.0 -
NoFr D Maugire wrote: »The new finanancial rules will make the sport even more lop-sided as it will ensure the big clubs get bigger whilst the smaller clubs will rot away. I actually follow football but view it as no different than cycling. There is only one real factor in who wins in football and that is money. Yes, there might be a few clubs but they all have the money.
You seem to accept there is no level playing field in football but somehow that is ok because that is always how it has been. That might be somewhat true but before it was possible for smaller clubs to challenge, just look at the likes of Derby County, Nottm forest way back. No, the money that has come into football over the last 20 years has made it one of the biggest joke sport's there is. It is just that it is the most popular that nobody wants to look at it as such.
There is a lot more to football than the aberration that is premier league .0 -
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NoFr D Maugire wrote: »When other sports come under the level of police scrutiny that cycling has, then we can talk about equality. Remember the dark underside of cycling was only revealed when the French police went on the rampage during the Festina affair. That was a fluke, you can be guranteed if it was football, it would have been buried again.
Cycling developed its bad rep then and it has become the punchbag ever since. In the Operation Puerto investigation back in 06, there were apparently hundreds of athletes involved from various sports including tennis and football. The only names ever revealed to the public were cyclists. How did that happen?
Josip Guardiola, lauded Barcelona and Bayern coach has tested positive for Nandrolone, a steroid. Is that even mentioned in the press and the guy is worshipped and idealised everywhere. That alone should reflect the difference in media treatment of cycling and football. A guy with a positive drug test and he is the big hero.
Cycling is no different that any other sport, it just had the misfortune or fortune to have the police get involved in it's affairs. Let everyone else believe in the fairytale that any other sport is different.
This is where you are utterly wrong , cycling is tested as much as it is because it deserves to be and whats more it brought it on itself despite many opportunities to halt the slide.
When push came to shove and the Festina affair offered a golden opportunity to clean up the sport not alone did the cycling authorities fail to take the necessary action they actually became the biggest part of the problem.
And it became the punchbag because tour winners kept failing drug tests as recently as 2010.
As regards other sports ,no one is naive enough to believe they are without sin, but we can only judge them on the crimes they have committed and not on what we think they have committed . So lets judge them when that time comes .
The thing that disappoints me most in both cycling and athletics is when the problem is so great the aficionados start saying others sports are just as bad. It is then I begin to fear the problem is beyond solving0 -
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NoThere is a lot more to football than the aberration that is premier league .
Yes but the Premier League is the biggest and most popular league in the World. The flagship and you say it is an abbeartion.
Champions league is another joke only really open to teams with money. Atletico broke that trend somewheat last year but first time in over 10 years that a non-major money bags club appeared in the final.
Italian football has faded badly since the money started to drain away whilst once it was the biggest league in the world. How many times has the Italian league been embroiled in match-fixing.
In France which was less-affected by money, PSG got the big bucks and won two titles on the bounce straight away.
Money might not always gurantee success but without you won't really win much in football.0
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