Dublin Bus stages

poggyone wrote: »

How many time must it be posted before people get it into their heads Dublin Bus do not set the fares.
As of February Dublin Bus do not get any money from the cash box, it all goes to the NTA, Dublin Bus will be getting a flat fee from the NTA for operating a route.

So no point in blaming Dublin Bus for any of you problems with fare prices, they have nothing to do with Dublin Bus.
Get angry with the NTA.

I'm sorry, but what total BS!!

Dublin Bus has existed since 1987 and they existed as part of CIE since 1945!

DB created the stage fare system and has maintained it and operated it for decades now. The NTA has only existed for 5 years now, it only started setting DB fares 3 years ago and it will only move to the new model in February!

So you certainly can't blame the NTA for this mess, it is clearly DB mess and now the NTA are stepping in to fix it.

Looking at the fare page and the adjustments that the NTA made this year, it is very clear that they are gradually working there way towards flat fares.

Expresso is already a defacto flat fare.

The Child fares are just one very simple and uncrotversial step from being a flat fare. Currently Child fares are flat during school hours and are flat outside of these hours when using Expresso. Only for standard buses outside school hours, there are two fares:

Stages 1 to 7 €0.90
Over 7 Stages €1.10

The change here is very obvious, split the difference and make it a €1 flat fare and then ALL child fares are flat fares and zero need for driver interaction.

And now that just leaves the adult fares which might be a little more difficult and politically charged. With the NTA merging stages 4 to 7 and 8 to 13, it is very clear where they are going with this. The only question is will they jump to the flat fare this year or more gradually approach it over two years.

It is very clear that the NTA are doing the right thing here, just perhaps slower then I'd like.

However I notice this trend in a number of posts of people trying to deflect the failings of Dublin Bus onto the NTA!

This is complete nonsesnse, DB has existed for decades and the problems with DB have existed for decades before the NTA even existed. Let me make it clear:

- DB created and maintained the stage fare structure.
- DB decided to go with single door buses, with high dwell times.
- DB decided to buy antiquated ticket machines which were already out of date and had been replaced by new much more powerful models when they bought them.
- DB decided to operate to only 11:30 (far too early), decided to have no early Sunday serivces and decided not to have a proper 24/7 late night service.

These are all the main problems with DB and NON of them were created by the NTA. They were all created by Dublin Bus.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

just to point, things are in the hands of the NTA now regarding fares etc. not dublin bus. (NTA made cash fare 3.30 when dublin bus only wanted 3.)

Oh, I know, but that is only a very recent development and strictly speaking it hasn't fully happened yet.

Until now, the NTA could adjust the stage fares, but couldn't force DB to scrap them completely. I expect they will only gain this power come February with the changes to who controls the fare box.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but it really looks like the NTA are heading to a flat fare system, at least I hope so.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

i see why you want the flat fare and i understand it BUT the stage system is smart in the sense you pay for what you use. i.e if im only going down the road why should i pay full whack ?

I know what you mean, which is why I've long be a fan of the Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off system where you pay per km for the distance you travel. Much fairer system and much better integrated with using multiple buses, trams, etc.

However unfortunately in order to implement a system like this, you really need dual door buses, where the rear doors are opened at every stop and people leave via the rear door (and thus tag-off) while people board via the front door. That isn't possible as the majority of Dublin Buses fleet is stupidly single door.

Tagging-off at the front door is questionable how successful that would be. So it looks like the only way to improve dwell times now is to move to a flat fare system.

Yes, that will be somewhat unfair and may piss off a small number of people on shorter routes, however overall making using DB much easier and reducing peoples journey times due to reduced dwell times will I believe significantly improve DB service and most people will welcome it.

Also London has a flat fare, so obviously it can and does work.

Another point is that typically, public transport wants to discourage people from making short journeys, for two reasons:

1) To free up more capacity for people who want to travel long distance and have no other option unlike people making short trips.
2) To encourage people on short journeys to choose healthier and more environmentally friendly options of walking or cycling.

That is why the fare on Luas for only one zone is so high, to discourage it's use for short journeys. This is typical of public transport all over Europe and it is why the DB city center fare is such a strange fare and I expect will end up being chopped.

BTW old age and disabled people aren't an issue as they are covered by the free travel pass.

Final point, for the truly longer journeys like to Skerries, Balbriggan, etc. You can make them more expensive anyway by making more of them Expresso routes and thus having the higher Expresso flat fare. Thus would also benefit people living in these places as there are likely to be less stopping as people would be discouraged from using them due to the higher price.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

DB ticket machines are the same ones on Aircoach too and they do the job they are supposed to. But i agree are slow at times on the leap cards.

True, but Aircoaches routes and fares are far less complicated. Aircoach is a coach type service, which is very different to a city bus service. They don't have stages, just a small number of options and they don't have Leap.

The DB ticket machine is simply not up to operating in a modern city bus service environment.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

DB are looking at a 24 hour service if it is possible and required. nothing to do with the NTA here, just DB going at it by themselves.

Wow, well that would me fantastic. If it is a proper service, running 24/7, picking up in both directions and only slightly more expensive then the regular service, then I can well imagine it being a big success. Hope we get this soon.

poggyone, I'm aware that DB previously tried to introduce flat fares and it is a great pity that it was blocked by political interference.

Fortunately it looks like the NTA are trying again, but they are approaching it more cautiously, probably to avoid this political interference.

However I'm sorry, Network direct was a Dublin Bus project. The routes and schedules were very much largely designed by Dublin Bus, most routes and schedules have been the same for years.

NTA has only recently (as in the last year) taken control of route and scheduling planing and for the most part, yes they have for the most part only rubber stamped Dublin Buses decisions so far, but I'm certain we will see increasing NTA involvement in these decisions as they sort out DB's mess.

Just look at the fantastic job the NTA have done on the intercity routes. WE have gone from BE running a crappy service between Cork and Dublin, that stopped at 6pm and took 4 and a half hours, to an amazing private service that runs almost hourly, 24 hours a day adn takes just 3 hours!! I'm looking forward to the NTA brining the same innovation and service improvement to Dublins City Bus services.

If you went to Germany or Poland 20 years ago, you would have found buses that had at least 2 doors, 3 to 4 in many cases! Amazing dwell times, all doors open at every stop and people quickly board, zero driver interaction, you validate your ticket on the bus with a simple stamper, tickets usually are T60 or T90, giving you unlimited bus travel for 60/90 minutes. Oh and they also have late night services and the timetable at every stop that is actually for that stop!!

All of things were the norm in mainland europe 20 years ago!!! These are what we expect from a quality Eureopean city bus service and it is what DB fail miserably at. DB could have done all of this at any time over the last 20 years, but couldn't be bothered, so please don't blame the NTA for Dublin Buses failures.

It is a very sad attempt at deflection, blaming others for your failures.