Contracting or permanent?

Synode · 08-01-2015 11:30pm

Dying to know what the average salary is for a permanent developer now. A quick Google says €36,169 per year which seems quite low

srsly78 · 08-01-2015 11:36pm

krazyklown wrote: »

whether I have the necessary expertise.

No expertise needed really, just a brass neck. If you have some experience with <latest trendy framework> and can do fizzbuzz you will probably be grand.

EamonnDunne · 08-01-2015 11:53pm

srsly78 wrote: »

No expertise needed really, just a brass neck. If you have some experience with <latest trendy framework> and can do fizzbuzz you will probably be grand.

I've generally seen people move into contracting when they are at about 5 years experience.

EamonnDunne · 08-01-2015 11:54pm

Synode wrote: »

Dying to know what the average salary is for a permanent developer now. A quick Google says €36,169 per year which seems quite low

At the mid range, generally between 40k and 70k depending on experience.

Senna · 09-01-2015 1:49am

Probably answered in other forums, but contracting work means self employed? Does that mean that you would never get social welfare, illness benifit etc? Is that a consideration too?
Contracting would be something I would love to do at some stage but it's a long way off for me yet.

EamonnDunne · 09-01-2015 9:05am

Senna wrote:

Probably answered in other forums, but contracting work means self employed? Does that mean that you would never get social welfare, illness benifit etc? Is that a consideration too? Contracting would be something I would love to do at some stage but it's a long way off for me yet.

Yes, you are self employed in the context you are referring to.

diarmuid05 · 09-01-2015 4:59pm

srsly78 wrote: »

No expertise needed really, just a brass neck. If you have some experience with <latest trendy framework> and can do fizzbuzz you will probably be grand.

Really,
I have zero experience with contractors, never been one and we don't hire them where i work.
But I've always assumed contractors were superstar programmers that were top of the class and that's why they got paid the big bucks????

srsly78 · 09-01-2015 5:15pm

Yes some of them are. Many of them are just normal guys with a few years experience. Supply vs demand is the thing. If demand massively outstrips supply then even an average guy is a superstar.

The "big bucks" thing is often misleading, permanent employees rarely appreciate the externalities. Did you know that as a permanent employee your employer also pays 15% prsi on top of your wage? Also pension holidays etc etc - it adds up to a significant cost for the employer. These superstar contractors often cost less than the permies.

The Corinthian · 09-01-2015 5:17pm

diarmuid05 wrote: »

But I've always assumed contractors were superstar programmers that were top of the class and that's why they got paid the big bucks????

Sometimes. Much of the time consultants and contractors are those who just happen to be a few chapters ahead in the book to everyone else.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

L.Jenkins · 09-01-2015 5:19pm

diarmuid05 wrote: »

Really,
I have zero experience with contractors, never been one and we don't hire them where i work.
But I've always assumed contractors were superstar programmers that were top of the class and that's why they got paid the big bucks????

You're right in a way, a Contractor has to know there stuff, as they usually have to hit the ground running, with very little time for a learning curve. Most will hire a Contractor to pick up the slack on a project until completion, while others may hire a Contractor to avoid some of the obligations of having a permanent employee. Relating to the latter, a Contractor doesn't always have to be a superstar programmer as you put it.

Graham · 09-01-2015 5:22pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sometimes. Much of the time consultants and contractors are those who just happen to be a few chapters ahead in the book to everyone else.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Well that it, we're all fecked now the cat's out of the bag.

srsly78 · 09-01-2015 5:27pm

float bigBucks()
{
   try{
   auto bandwagon = identifyTrend();
   loot += jumpOn(bandwagon);
   while (sunshine)
      makeHay();
   }
   catch (TaxException e)
   {
        LOGERROR("sry boss I didnt realise it was illegal");
        return 0;
   }

   return loot;
}

Graham · 09-01-2015 5:42pm

srsly78 wrote: »

float bigBucks()
{
   try{
   auto bandwagon = identifyTrend();
   loot += jumpOn(bandwagon);
   while (sunshine)
      makeHay();
   }
   catch (TaxException e)
   {
        LOGERROR("sry boss I didnt realise it was illegal");
        return 0;
   }

   return loot;
}

Quick, rename all the variables before the permies realise what the code does. :pac:

moycullen14 · 09-01-2015 5:59pm

diarmuid05 wrote: »

Really,
I have zero experience with contractors, never been one and we don't hire them where i work.
But I've always assumed contractors were superstar programmers that were top of the class and that's why they got paid the big bucks????

You know how bad the average developer is? Well, 50% are worse than that!

That's what keeps food on the contractors table.

You don't have to be a superstar. Competent is fine. The ability to pick things up is critical. Also, the ability to fit into any part of the project lifecycle.

Oh and don't be a d**k. A**hole contractors tend not to last very long.

moycullen14 · 09-01-2015 6:04pm

srsly78 wrote: »

The "big bucks" thing is often misleading, permanent employees rarely appreciate the externalities. Did you know that as a permanent employee your employer also pays 15% prsi on top of your wage? Also pension holidays etc etc - it adds up to a significant cost for the employer. These superstar contractors often cost less than the permies.

Very true. Include training, hand holding, career development and all manner of HR c**p and a permanent employee can be very expensive, especially if they don't perform.

AFAIK employees appear on the balance sheet of US companies as a liability and some financial measures include the number of employees as a denominator. Reduce that and things like revenue per employee go way up. Sometimes it's just an accounting thing.

Synode · 09-01-2015 10:31pm

srsly78 wrote: »

Did you know that as a permanent employee your employer also pays 15% prsi on top of your wage?

[Puts on pedantic hat]

Employer PRSI 10.75%

[Throws hat which lands perfectly on hat-stand] :pac:

srsly78 · 09-01-2015 10:33pm

Oops yes quite correct. This is relevant to the question another poster had earlier about social welfare entitlements etc.

If you use an umbrella company you can be a "normal employee" with entitlement to the dole etc. But you must pay this extra 10.75% tax to qualify for it. Alternatively you can be a proprietary director and not have to pay this extra prsi - but lose access to dole etc.

Synode · 09-01-2015 10:47pm

The dole thing shouldn't put people off becoming a contractor. In reality, how likely is it that a programmer is going to need to claim the dole. And if you really, really did need to start claiming, if you go to their offices and kick up enough of a fuss, they'll pay out.

srsly78 · 09-01-2015 10:51pm

Yes you can still get means tested payment. And stamps run out after 9 months now so the dole isn't worth that much!

The Corinthian · 10-01-2015 1:16pm

Synode wrote: »

The dole thing shouldn't put people off becoming a contractor. In reality, how likely is it that a programmer is going to need to claim the dole.

After the dotcom bubble burst, quickly followed by 9/11, it was very likely. Shìt happens.

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes you can still get means tested payment.

Indeed. You don't get any deductions unless you have at least 20k in assets. And if you do, that's why God created places like Lichtenstein.

And stamps run out after 9 months now so the dole isn't worth that much!

Whole social welfare system in Ireland's a joke, TBH. Fails to reward those who pay into the system to the point, as you suggest, it's not even worth the effort of doing so.

Synode · 10-01-2015 1:20pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Whole social welfare system in Ireland's a joke, TBH. Fails to reward those who pay into the system to the point, as you suggest, it's not even worth the effort of doing so.

It sure is. Just seen this on the Journal this morning. It's a ridiculous system

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/social-welfare-self-employed-ireland-1872919-Jan2015/?utm_source=facebook_short

ejabrod · 10-01-2015 7:25pm

EamonnDunne wrote: »

At the mid range, generally between 40k and 70k depending on experience.

WOW, that's a sweeping statement and one I would not agree with

EamonnDunne · 10-01-2015 7:37pm

ejabrod wrote: »

WOW, that's a sweeping statement and one I would not agree with

Fair enough, its based on publicly available salary surveys such as Brightwater's.

John_Mc · 13-01-2015 6:00pm

ejabrod wrote: »

WOW, that's a sweeping statement and one I would not agree with

Have to disagree with you. We've been hiring and therefore talking to a lot of recruiters and looking into salary ranges ourselves, and it it's 40-70k in Dublin with someone with 2+ years experience

daigo75 · 14-01-2015 6:29pm

diarmuid05 wrote: »

But I've always assumed contractors were superstar programmers that were top of the class and that's why they got paid the big bucks????

If I may butt in, I have to say that the rates paid in Ireland are far from being "big bucks". I work with contractors all over the world and I noticed a trend in many countries: contractors earn far more (i.e. twice, or three times) the gross annual salary of an employee with equivalent experience.

If we take a contractor in Ireland, using the (Irish-only, unknown elsewhere) "daily rate" of 400 Euro a day, we get a gross income of approximately 94000 Euro a year (400 x 5 days a week x 47 weeks). This is without benefits. As a developer with 20 years' experience, I could easily get a salary close to that figure, as a permanent employee.

To make a comparison, in the past two weeks I talked to contractors from Sweden, Denmark and Canada. They have between 3 and 8 years' experience, and they work as PHP web developers (not the highest paying job). Their rates:
- Sweden: 120 Euro per hour (5 years' experience)
- Denmark: 150 Euro per hour (3 years' experience)
- Canada: 170 Euro per hour (8 years' experience)

Yes, that's per hour. I started investigating why such disparity, and I could not find a definitive answer. Some people told me that it might be because taxes are higher, but it doesn't add up. For example, I know for sure that Denmark has a taxation policy that caps the fiscal pressure to a maximum of 50.5% of anyone's income (in Ireland it can reach 52%). The cost of life is also not so much higher in places like Copenhagen, and for sure not three times the cost of living in Dublin.

On top of that:
- There is no "daily rate". This is a concept that seems to exist only in Ireland (never heard of it in the continent). Especially, there are no customers who try to push for "a day is a day" (where working 8, 10 or 12 hours results in the same daily rate). Contractors charge by the hour, or a fixed amount per project.
- Contractors are not mono-customer. They don't work 9 to 5 for a single customer for months or years. This is another concept that I saw only in Ireland.
- Contractors don't work on customer's site. The rare times they do, they charge extra for travel expenses.

In my opinion, with those rates and parameters, being a contractor is worth the risks. With the "traditional" Irish system of what I consider disguised employment, not so much.

srsly78 · 14-01-2015 6:31pm

Good stuff, now we can argue over the definition of "contractor" just like in that other thread. What you are talking about there is consultancy.

Also, why did you not mention the UK? Things here are not so different from the UK, London rates are better of course tho.

EamonnDunne · 14-01-2015 6:36pm

daigo75 wrote: »

If I may butt in, I have to say that the rates paid in Ireland are far from being "big bucks". I work with contractors all over the world and I noticed a trend in many countries: contractors earn far more (i.e. twice, or three times) the gross annual salary of an employee with equivalent experience.

If we take a contractor in Ireland, using the (Irish-only, unknown elsewhere) "daily rate" of 400 Euro a day, we get a gross income of approximately 94000 Euro a year (400 x 5 days a week x 47 weeks). This is without benefits. As a developer with 20 years' experience, I could easily get a salary close to that figure, as a permanent employee.

To make a comparison, in the past two weeks I talked to contractors from Sweden, Denmark and Canada. They have between 3 and 8 years' experience, and they work as PHP web developers (not the highest paying job). Their rates:
- Sweden: 120 Euro per hour (5 years' experience)
- Denmark: 150 Euro per hour (3 years' experience)
- Canada: 170 Euro per hour (8 years' experience)

Yes, that's per hour. I started investigating why such disparity, and I could not find a definitive answer. Some people told me that it might be because taxes are higher, but it doesn't add up. For example, I know for sure that Denmark has a taxation policy that caps the fiscal pressure to a maximum of 50.5% of anyone's income (in Ireland it can reach 52%). The cost of life is also not so much higher in places like Copenhagen, and for sure not three times the cost of living in Dublin.

On top of that:
- There is no "daily rate". This is a concept that seems to exist only in Ireland (never heard of it in the continent). Especially, there are no customers who try to push for "a day is a day" (where working 8, 10 or 12 hours results in the same daily rate). Contractors charge by the hour, or a fixed amount per project.
- Contractors are not mono-customer. They don't work 9 to 5 for a single customer for months or years. This is another concept that I saw only in Ireland.
- Contractors don't work on customer's site. The rare times they do, they charge extra for travel expenses.

In my opinion, with those rates and parameters, being a contractor is worth the risks. With the "traditional" Irish system of what I consider disguised employment, not so much.

You are comparing two completely different things. "Daily rate" is standard, certainly in any country I've worked in (Ireland,UK,Australia & Spain).

daigo75 · 14-01-2015 6:38pm

srsly78 wrote: »

Good stuff, now we can argue over the definition of "contractor" just like in that other thread. What you are talking about there is consultancy.

I thought that what a contractor does is consultancy.

At least, that's what I did when I worked as a contractor for 10 years in Europe.

EamonnDunne · 14-01-2015 6:42pm

daigo75 wrote: »

I thought that what a contractor does is consultancy.
At least, that's what I did when I worked as a contractor for 10 years in Europe.

The word "contractor" (in development anyway) is basically a FTE (full time equivalent) where you are paying someone to behave as a permie, however their employment term is fixed length and generally has a clause that allows termination of the agreement with a weeks notice.

A consultant, is someone who is, generally, brought in ad hoc to consult. They don't behave as a FTE and hence will have several clients on the go at once.

To expand on the example, say I have a project. I estimate it will take 8 months to complete. However I don't expect recurring revenue from it. I don't have the on staff labor to produce it in the required time frame and I expect to scale down afterwards, I'll hire a contractor.

Now lets say that during this project there is a work item in it which requires in dept knowledge in a particular field. Something like runtime security, its a deliverable that it passes certain tests but its not a long ongoing piece of work, I'll hire a consultant.

daigo75 · 14-01-2015 6:48pm

EamonnDunne wrote: »

The word "contractor" (in development anyway) is basically a FTE (full time equivalent) where you are paying someone to behave as a permie, however their employment term is fixed length and generally has a clause that allows termination of the agreement with a weeks notice.

That's precisely the description of all the contracting positions I've been offered in Ireland, and it makes absolutely no sense to me. It's a contract of service, with the responsibilities of a permanent employee with the risks of a self-employed person, I can't really understand why anyone would do that, instead of choosing a permanent employment. However, I do understand why a company would hire someone like that, it saves them money and risks.

EamonnDunne wrote: »

A consultant, is someone who is, generally, brought in ad hoc to consult. They don't behave as a FTE and hence will have several clients on the go at once.

Yes, that's the way I always worked as a contractor. If I'm not an employee, then I don't want to be treated as such.

Contracting or permanent?

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