Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

Safehands · 11-12-2014 2:45pm

ABC101 wrote: »

Well they did not give it to me personally.

Many visionaries have been allowed to see Hell. The visionaries in Medjugorge being just recently. And in fact they are still occuring, our Lady visits the visionaries, some daily, others yearly etc.

Think about it..... if the fire is supposed to burn / cause pain / torment etc etc... and there are peoples SOULS in Hell. Then it must be a fire which is able to burn / torment the soul. Otherwise it would not work.

You sound like a nice person ABC. I'm sure you do believe these stories.
The truth is that fire can't burn in a vacuum and spirits with no human type senses, cannot feel a sensation of burning. So that story of seeing spirits burning in hell is just a story, it is not true. You can't just make up your own "facts" such as it being a special fire which burns spirits. I know that logic doesn't enter the equation with beliefs such as these, but you must try to understand that these Visions are about as real as your "special" fire.

ABC101 · 11-12-2014 2:49pm

Harika wrote: »

Anyway why does this justify the influence today?

It's called first mover advantage.

The reason why there is not an athiest educational system today... is because athiests did not get it together way back 200 odd years ago.

But because various religious orders La Salle, Christian Brothers various convent schools did... athiests are calling sour grapes. You yourself said that it has caused huge damage.

I myself, my father and various other members of my family.... going back over 100 years were educated in schools run by various Religious orders. It did not do my family any harm. In fact a few million Irish people have been educated by them.

To turn around now... and state Ireland would have been better off without any Schools run by Religious orders over the last 200 to 300 years is blatently false!

Festus · 11-12-2014 2:55pm

Harika wrote: »

I am aware of some anecdotes were people were brought from Christians to atheists and back to Christians or others from Christians to atheists and then to Buddhists. But what does this proof?

It proves humans can think and make choices.

Harika wrote: »

People are looking for answers, cool! There is still the overwhelming majority of people in the scientific fields with PhD that are non believers.

That's some claim. Can you back it up with evidence?

Harika wrote: »

And for finding the right answers "The universe", "dark matter" and "dark energy" are three perfectly legit answers, use google.

to what question?

Harika · 11-12-2014 3:02pm

Festus wrote: »

It proves humans can think and make choices.

Yes, free will

Festus wrote: »

That's some claim. Can you back it up with evidence?

Yes, if you dont believe me, the best way to learn is to do your own research. It would seem that for some catholics Google is their enemy as there is a risk you may discover something that might actually get you thinking.

Festus wrote: »

to what question?

The one you asked.

Safehands · 11-12-2014 3:02pm

Festus wrote: »

That's some claim. Can you back it up with evidence?

Boy, that's a little rich Festus, my friend. Irony can be wonderful!

Festus · 11-12-2014 3:03pm

Safehands wrote: »

The truth is that fire can't burn in a vacuum...

The Sun looks hot and many suspect it is burning and it is suspended in a vacuum

Safehands wrote: »

... and spirits with no human type senses, cannot feel a sensation of burning.

which of your senses feels love and which of your senses feels hate? Have you ever burned with the passion of unrequited love?
As we are discussing Hell, what does hate feel like?

Safehands wrote: »

So that story of seeing spirits burning in hell is just a story, it is not true.

ABC101 is referring to eye witness testimony. You do not have to believe the testimony but are not qualified to state whether or not it is true.

Safehands wrote: »

You can't just make up your own "facts" such as it being a special fire which burns spirits. I know that logic doesn't enter the equation with beliefs such as these, but you must try to understand that these Visions are about as real as your "special" fire.

The fact that fires like the sun burn in the vacuum of space illustrates that you have made up your own facts in this posting.

the sun analogy upset some (#8952 and #8953). Please note that thermite will also burn in a vacuum

Festus · 11-12-2014 3:08pm

Safehands wrote: »

Boy, that's a little rich Festus, my friend. Irony can be wonderful!

Burden of proof lies with those making the claim, and the claim is a postive claim.

Perhaps what was meant was that there is a lack of evidence for the existence of doctors of science who are Christians or believe in God being in the majority in the field of science.

But that's not the claim.

Bring on the evidence.

Harika · 11-12-2014 3:08pm

ABC101 wrote: »

It's called first mover advantage.

The reason why there is not an athiest educational system today... is because athiests did not get it together way back 200 odd years ago.

But because various religious orders La Salle, Christian Brothers various convent schools did... athiests are calling sour grapes. You yourself said that it has caused huge damage.

I myself, my father and various other members of my family.... going back over 100 years were educated in schools run by various Religious orders. It did not do my family any harm. In fact a few million Irish people have been educated by them.

To turn around now... and state Ireland would have been better off without any Schools run by Religious orders over the last 200 to 300 years is blatently false!

I never made any statement that Ireland would be better off with or without any schools by religious orders.
Still the argument that it did not do you any harm, is pointless as you have no reference how it would have been if you went to an "atheist" school, basically a school without forced religious input.
Still let's bury this red herring and come back to the main discussion why are political, social .... decisions made with the presumption "God wants it that way" in the year 2014?

Safehands · 11-12-2014 3:10pm

Festus wrote: »

Burden of proof lies with those making the claim, and the claim is a postive claim.
Bring on the evidence.

Great! You claim God exists, so the burden of proof lies with you! Bring on the evidence!

Festus · 11-12-2014 3:21pm

Harika wrote: »

Yes, free will

Do we have free will because we can think or can we think because we have free will?

Harika wrote: »

Yes, if you dont believe me, the best way to learn is to do your own research. It would seem that for some catholics Google is their enemy as there is a risk you may discover something that might actually get you thinking.

Ah yes - plagiarism -

No matter - I can think, and I can think for you if you wish, and I can use Google for you too.

I'll give you one to get you started. Can you find another one?
Come back to me with when you have finished reading

http://socpro.oxfordjournals.org/content/socpro/54/2/289.full.pdf

Harika wrote: »

The one you asked.

Wrong answer. Try again. I gave you clues. Twice.

Harika · 11-12-2014 3:21pm

Festus wrote: »

The Sun looks hot and many suspect it is burning and it is suspended in a vacuum

The fact that fires like the sun burn in the vacuum of space illustrates that you have made up your own facts in this posting.

The Sun does not "burn", like we think of logs in a fire or paper burning. The Sun glows because it is a very big ball of gas, and a process called nuclear fusion is taking place in its core. Nuclear fusion occurs when one proton smashes into another proton so hard that they stick together...and release some energy as well. This energy then heats up the other materials (other protons and electrons and such) nearby. This heating eventually grows out from the center (or core) of the star to the outside, finally leaving the surface and radiating out into space to be the heat and light we know stars emit.

People, including scientists, sometimes say that the Sun "burns hydrogen" to make it glow. But that is just a figure of speech. Hydrogen really doesn't burn, it fuses, into helium. So no oxygen is required!

Safehands · 11-12-2014 3:23pm

Festus wrote: »

The fact that fires like the sun burn in the vacuum of space illustrates that you have made up your own facts in this posting.

No they don't! Simplistic Festus. A little truth is dangerous.

Harika · 11-12-2014 3:25pm

Festus wrote: »

Wrong answer. Try again. I gave you clues. Twice.

Nope mine are right, prove it please that they are wrong, although it might become then a physics question and not belong into Christianity.

Festus · 11-12-2014 3:44pm

Safehands wrote: »

Great! You claim God exists, so the burden of proof lies with you! Bring on the evidence!

I will tell you what I believe, and that is that I believe that God exists, but I do not have to prove that. For me belief in God is the default position.
In the absence of any evidence to the contrary why should I arbitrarily change my position?

You can tell me that you believe I am wrong to hold my belief but why should I believe you?

marienbad · 11-12-2014 3:46pm

ABC101 wrote: »

It's called first mover advantage.

The reason why there is not an athiest educational system today... is because athiests did not get it together way back 200 odd years ago.

But because various religious orders La Salle, Christian Brothers various convent schools did... athiests are calling sour grapes. You yourself said that it has caused huge damage.

I myself, my father and various other members of my family.... going back over 100 years were educated in schools run by various Religious orders. It did not do my family any harm. In fact a few million Irish people have been educated by them.

To turn around now... and state Ireland would have been better off without any Schools run by Religious orders over the last 200 to 300 years is blatently false!

The above is simply incorrect , if the church hadn't provided education the state would have and we would have an education system today somewhat similar to the UK education system. The same applies to the health system- imagine if we had a health system ( for all its faults) similar to the UK. Now that would be something.

No the truth of the matter is the the Church wanted the State nowhere near education or health , but we the people of Ireland paid for all those schools and hospitals that miraculously always ended up in the ownership of the Church .

This whole education thing is a myth as if it was an either this or nothing.

ABC101 · 11-12-2014 3:56pm

Harika wrote: »

I never made any statement that Ireland would be better off with or without any schools by religious orders.
Still the argument that it did not do you any harm, is pointless as you have no reference how it would have been if you went to an "atheist" school, basically a school without forced religious input.
Still let's bury this red herring and come back to the main discussion why are political, social .... decisions made with the presumption "God wants it that way" in the year 2014?

I'll refer you to your own comments in post #8935

Quite simple, because christian policies are forced on people and religion imposes it's standard on others, what would be fine if only Christians would be affected by it. But my life and the life of others are influenced in a negative way by those policies

and as long religion stands in the way of happiness of other people

It is clear you are stating that the work carried out in the Irish educational system over the last 250 years by various religious orders... has had a NEGATIVE effect on you and others.

You choose to ignore the great good that has been done by these people. People who gave their entire life... to the service of others... and you state that it is a negative!! Most unfair comment in my opinion!!

ABC101 · 11-12-2014 4:06pm

marienbad wrote: »

The above is simply incorrect , if the church hadn't provided education the state would have and we would have an education system today somewhat similar to the UK education system. The same applies to the health system- imagine if we had a health system ( for all its faults) similar to the UK. Now that would be something.

No the truth of the matter is the the Church wanted the State nowhere near education or health , but we the people of Ireland paid for all those schools and hospitals that miraculously always ended up in the ownership of the Church .

This whole education thing is a myth as if it was an either this or nothing.

The Irish state did not exist then as it does now. In addition under your espoused British Rule... there were penal laws enacted against the Roman Catholics... who where the majority of the population. That is how a minority controls a majority... you keep them ignorant!

Religious orders risked their own lives, and many where hunted down and killed by the Redcoats. Schools had to be conducted in fields, hedges etc.

When the Free State was set up... it was effectively bankrupt..it was TOO poor to set up and run it's own educational system. The religious orders provided assistance to the fledgling new Irish nation to educate the population.

This country would be nothing without an educational system... and the Irish educational system was built upon the efforts of various religious orders and the great sacrifices they made over the centuries.

Of course.... these facts are valueless to you.

Festus · 11-12-2014 4:07pm

Harika wrote: »

Nope mine are right, prove it please that they are wrong, although it might become then a physics question and not belong into Christianity.

Lets recap. one poster stated that "nothing lasts forever". I responded - at least one thing does and mentioned a closed system and the laws of physics.

You mentioned three things. The universe, dark matter and dark energy.

The universe is the closed system mentioned in my response and so cannot be the answer. Further we cannot state that the universe will last forever.

Dark matter is a recent invention and its existence cannot be proven and may well be as hypothetical as dark energy. Further if dark matter does exist it is still matter and matter can be destroyed and so cannot last forever.

So, your answers are wrong.

There is one thing that does last forever and this fact is recorded as a law of physics

ABC101 · 11-12-2014 4:20pm

Safehands wrote: »

You sound like a nice person ABC. I'm sure you do believe these stories.
The truth is that fire can't burn in a vacuum and spirits with no human type senses, cannot feel a sensation of burning. So that story of seeing spirits burning in hell is just a story, it is not true. You can't just make up your own "facts" such as it being a special fire which burns spirits. I know that logic doesn't enter the equation with beliefs such as these, but you must try to understand that these Visions are about as real as your "special" fire.

Well there are other ways to get burnt... ever hear of RF Burn?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_burn

Next time you are near a TV mast... you may notice danger signs to keep away. Not a good idea to touch / come into contact with an antenna when it is transmitting power.

Electrical current can burn human tissue etc.

Anyway I'm sure you are aware of all that, so lets leave it there so.

I never expected you to believe Safehands... however I was only offering an explanation for various questions, and no ... unfortunately I do not have all the answers.

One of the reasons why believers like to spread their belief... is that it is about the Good News... that there is a God... he loves you... and that there is a place in Heaven for us ALL. That includes me and YOU!!. But there are ground rules... which apply to you and I... and everybody else.

If I was really a selfish person... I would not be bothered blogging on here for one!!

Best of luck to ya.... where ever you go, end up. But remember the story of Howard Storm... if you do find yourself in a dire situation... don't forget to call on Jesus!!

Festus · 11-12-2014 4:23pm

Safehands wrote: »

No they don't! Simplistic Festus. A little truth is dangerous.

Please, no name calling.

Why can you not accept that the sun is like a fire burning in the vacuum of space as a figure of speech?

You don't like the sun analogy. Too simple? Ok, what about thermite?

Thermite can burn in a vacuum.

what does that mean for your statement

Safehands wrote: »

The truth is that fire can't burn in a vacuum...

marienbad · 11-12-2014 4:42pm

ABC101 wrote: »

The Irish state did not exist then as it does now. In addition under your espoused British Rule... there were penal laws enacted against the Roman Catholics... who where the majority of the population. That is how a minority controls a majority... you keep them ignorant!

Religious orders risked their own lives, and many where hunted down and killed by the Redcoats. Schools had to be conducted in fields, hedges etc.

When the Free State was set up... it was effectively bankrupt..it was TOO poor to set up and run it's own educational system. The religious orders provided assistance to the fledgling new Irish nation to educate the population.

This country would be nothing without an educational system... and the Irish educational system was built upon the efforts of various religious orders and the great sacrifices they made over the centuries.

Of course.... these facts are valueless to you.

Simplistic tosh, both Catholic and Protestant churches united against a national education system in the 1840's and 50's because they were fundamentally opposed to a state involvement in education.

To believe that without the church there would have been no catholic education is simply incorrect.

The issue at its root was about control over 'hearts and minds' - not education - or at least only a specific kind of education. And we certainly have seen the results .

lazygal · 11-12-2014 5:22pm

marienbad wrote: »

Simplistic tosh, both Catholic and Protestant churches united against a national education system in the 1840's and 50's because they were fundamentally opposed to a state involvement in education.

To believe that without the church there would have been no catholic education is simply incorrect.

The issue at its root was about control over 'hearts and minds' - not education - or at least only a specific kind of education. And we certainly have seen the results .

It's not surprising so many people fall for spin that the churches educating the masses was done because the state wouldn't or couldn't do it, given the continued church control of education.These days if they are as interested in education as others claims why aren't they handing over unused school buildings for the education of children of other and no faith as they promised? Funny how so much educational properties disappeared into trusts in recent years.

Harika · 11-12-2014 5:30pm

Festus wrote: »

Lets recap. one poster stated that "nothing lasts forever". I responded - at least one thing does and mentioned a closed system and the laws of physics.

You mentioned three things. The universe, dark matter and dark energy.

The universe is the closed system mentioned in my response and so cannot be the answer. Further we cannot state that the universe will last forever.

We don't know yet if the universe will last forever, at the moment it looks like it, although the future does not look very bright.

Dark matter is a recent invention and its existence cannot be proven and may well be as hypothetical as dark energy. Further if dark matter does exist it is still matter and matter can be destroyed and so cannot last forever.

Dark matter is hypothetical but required to keep everything going, we know that it is there but don't know what it is. Same with Dark energy. So as long as this is not proven to be able to be destroyed or not to last forever, it is legit.
Isn't it fantastic to have something as answer where you know it cannot be refuted because it cannot be measured and only indirectly observed.

ABC101 · 11-12-2014 5:50pm

marienbad wrote: »

Simplistic tosh, both Catholic and Protestant churches united against a national education system in the 1840's and 50's because they were fundamentally opposed to a state involvement in education.

To believe that without the church there would have been no catholic education is simply incorrect.

The issue at its root was about control over 'hearts and minds' - not education - or at least only a specific kind of education. And we certainly have seen the results .

Your hatred of anything religious is your undoing.

From Wikipedia...

Types of school[edit]
Primary education is generally completed at a national school, a multidenominational school, a gaelscoil or a preparatory school.

National schools date back to the introduction of state primary education in 1831. They are usually controlled by a board of management under diocesan patronage and often include a local clergyman.[11][12] The term "national school" has of late become partly synonymous with primary school in some parts. Recently, there have been calls from many sides for fresh thinking in the areas of funding and governance for such schools, with some wanting them to be fully secularised.[13]

As of 2010 mainstream primary schools numbered as follows:[14]

Type of school Number (total: 3165) Percentage of total (to 1d.p.)(citation needed)

Roman Catholic 2,884 91.1%
Church of Ireland (Anglican) 180 5.7%
Multi-denominational 73 2.3%
Presbyterian 14 0.4%
Inter-Denominational 8 0.3%
Muslim 2 0.1%
Methodist 1 <0.1%
Jewish 1 <0.1%
Quaker 4 <0.1%
Other/Unknown 1 <0.1%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

As over 91% of PRIMARY schools are R.C.

YOU DENY the positive role they have played in the development of Ireland as it is today.

Your hatred of Religious orders makes you blind to the facts.

RikuoAmero · 11-12-2014 5:50pm

ABC101 is referring to eye witness testimony. You do not have to believe the testimony but are not qualified to state whether or not it is true.

Neither is ABC qualified or anyone else trying to use them as 'evidence' for their beliefs.

For me belief in God is the default position.

Which is a MASSIVE bias in favour of the god of the christian religion, over that of any other god posited by any other religion. Why is it that the christian god gets a 'free pass' so to speak, but if anyone else tries to convert you to their religion, (or we atheists discuss the holes in the christian religion), you demand of US that we provide evidence?

The universe is the closed system mentioned in my response and so cannot be the answer. Further we cannot state that the universe will last forever.

You pointed to the first law of thermodynamics as being your evidence for the universe being closed. However, the jury is still out, but I did see this on wikipedia (not the greatest of sources I know)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Role_of_the_shape_of_the_universe
"Recent measurements by Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe have confirmed that the universe is flat."
"[For a flat universe] With dark energy, the expansion rate of the universe initially slows down, due to the effect of gravity, but eventually increases. The ultimate fate of the universe is the same as an open universe."
"[For an open universe] Even without dark energy, a negatively curved universe expands forever, with gravity barely slowing the rate of expansion. With dark energy, the expansion not only continues but accelerates."
You'll have to define exactly what you mean by "last forever", since there are three possible postulated fates for an open universe.

Thermite can burn in a vacuum.

what does that mean for your statement

That would be because thermite contains its own oxygen, thus meaning it can produce flames. The same cannot be said of the sun, which is not burning as we typically understand it (it is undergoing nuclear fusion and producing oxygen, rather than consuming it)

Festus · 11-12-2014 5:54pm

Harika wrote: »

We don't know yet if the universe will last forever, at the moment it looks like it, although the future does not look very bright.

Without matter there is no universe and as matter can be destroyed it cannot be the answer.

Harika wrote: »

Dark matter is hypothetical but required to keep everything going, we know that it is there but don't know what it is. Same with Dark energy. So as long as this is not proven to be able to be destroyed or not to last forever, it is legit.
Isn't it fantastic to have something as answer where you know it cannot be refuted because it cannot be measured and only indirectly observed.

You seem to be alluding to something I know not what.

No matter. You can leave the exotics aside as the answer I was looking for is mentioned in the laws of thermodynamics as understood by students of science in secondary and undergraduate courses.

The OPs point was that nothing lasts forever and my response is that there is something that lasts forever and we have now established that it is not matter, dark matter, dark energy or the universe.

11-12-2014 5:55pm

Any evidence for a god yet?

Festus · 11-12-2014 6:03pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

That would be because thermite contains its own oxygen, thus meaning it can produce flames. The same cannot be said of the sun, which is not burning as we typically understand it (it is undergoing nuclear fusion and producing oxygen, rather than consuming it)

burning as we understand it involves flames or intense heat or both.

The sun is frequently referred to as burning regardless of how it does it so qualifies under intense heat.
burning thermite produces intense heat, though not as intense as the sun.

both thermite and the sun are capable of producing heat and light in a vacuum.

the claim that nothing can burn in a vacuum has been refuted.

RikuoAmero · 11-12-2014 6:03pm

No matter. You can leave the exotics aside as the answer I was looking for is mentioned in the laws of thermodynamics as understood by students of science in secondary and undergraduate courses.

The OPs point was that nothing lasts forever and my response is that there is something that lasts forever and we have now established that it is not matter, dark matter, dark energy or the universe.

You're contradicting yourself. Festus, you brought up the 1st law of thermodynamics "Matter/Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another" (thus basically saying matter/energy last forever)...but you then say matter doesn't last forever.
Which is it?

Festus · 11-12-2014 6:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Any evidence for a god yet?

depends on what you mean by "evidence" and "a god"

I do have to ask because I was under the impression that an atheist was someone who believed in the doctrine that there is no god - understandable given the etymology of the term atheist - from the Greek atheos - no god.

Now I'm given to understand that an atheist is a person who simply lacks of belief in the existence of God.

As there is no longer a cohort making the claim that God does not exist the implication is that the existence of God accepted and the issue for atheists is one of personal faith, or the lack thereof. This also allows for the probably that all atheists are actually agnostic with the implication that true atheists do not exist as the term atheist is now nothing more than a label that ultimately means nothing.

That being the case why would anyone want evidence?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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