laws on handymen

duckcfc · 13-11-2014 11:34pm #1

What's the laws on handyman doing work in this country. I've seen some good handymen in my time who are very good at the aul plastering/tiling/block work/concrete work and other jobs but a master at nine. I'm wanting to know the legality of it here in Ireland. I know you need some qualifications to go on site but how about private work, is anyone able to set up a company without any papers in this country and work away at these trades privately.

Gumbo · 14-11-2014 12:07am

duckcfc wrote: »

What's the laws on handyman doing work in this country. I've seen some good handymen in my time who are very good at the aul plastering/tiling/block work/concrete work and other jobs but a master at nine. I'm wanting to know the legality of it here in Ireland. I know you need some qualifications to go on site but how about private work, is anyone able to set up a company without any papers in this country and work away at these trades privately.

Basically no. What you are talking about is a nixer merchant. The black economy. Plastering, tiling is ok, but block work, concrete work needs to comply with Part A of the building regulations and must be design as such taking into account the principles of Structural Engineering.

If you get john from next door to build you a block wall, then you load the wall and it falls down onto your neighbours, who is liable???

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,30177,en.pdf

masonchat · 14-11-2014 12:13am

duckcfc wrote: »

What's the laws on handyman doing work in this country. I've seen some good handymen in my time who are very good at the aul plastering/tiling/block work/concrete work and other jobs but a master at nine. I'm wanting to know the legality of it here in Ireland. I know you need some qualifications to go on site but how about private work, is anyone able to set up a company without any papers in this country and work away at these trades privately.

Maybe you should find better handymen , to answer your question i have my papers with merit , never needed to provide them nor was i ever asked too , far as i know electricity/gas is really the only ones where worker is required by law to be qualified

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 1:12am

kceire wrote: »

Basically no. What you are talking about is a nixer merchant. The black economy. Plastering, tiling is ok, but block work, concrete work needs to comply with Part A of the building regulations and must be design as such taking into account the principles of Structural Engineering.

If you get john from next door to build you a block wall, then you load the wall and it falls down onto your neighbours, who is liable???

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,30177,en.pdf

Yes but a handyman could do the founds to part A just like a fully trained groundsman. What I want to know, is it against the law.

As for a wall falling down, when I say a handyman, I don't mean a cowboy. Someone who builds a block wall just as good as a block layer but not as quick.

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 1:14am

masonchat wrote: »

Maybe you should find better handymen , to answer your question i have my papers with merit , never needed to provide them nor was i ever asked too , far as i know electricity/gas is really the only ones where worker is required by law to be qualified

What you mean find a better handyman.

I know about the levy and gas that needs to be registered but what about the other trades.

I'm a plasterer myself, come from a plastering family and not one of us has our papers and have never been asked for them either.

masonchat · 14-11-2014 1:18am

duckcfc wrote: »

Yes but a handyman could do the founds to part A just like a fully trained groundsman. What I want to know, is it against the law.

As for a wall falling down, when I say a handyman, I don't mean a cowboy. Someone who builds a block wall just as good as a block layer but not as quick.

Well really it mainly comes down to the foundation as to weather the wall comes down or not , unless a total chancer.

A house that has been borrowed for needs to be inspected at certain stages in order to draw down funding.

What are you talking about here a garden wall ? either way not against the law as far as i know , there is a lot of very good handymen as you call them who have no papers and likewise there are a lot of people with papers who are shi#e

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 1:36am

masonchat wrote: »

Well really it mainly comes down to the foundation as to weather the wall comes down or not , unless a total chancer.

A house that has been borrowed for needs to be inspected at certain stages in order to draw down funding.

What are you talking about here a garden wall ? either way not against the law as far as i know , there is a lot of very good handymen as you call them who have no papers and likewise there are a lot of people with papers who are shi#e

I've seen some good hanymen build extensions/sun rooms or garages with just one labourer. Wonder how they'll get on with these new amendments.

Ill agree with ya on guys with papers being sh1t. Some of the block layers in this country are shocking, theres been times we had to put 3 scratch coats on to build some gables out they where that bad. Told to by an engineer to

masonchat · 14-11-2014 1:43am

Maybe i was lucky but mainly i found the standard to be good , but of course there are always people bad at their job, like you i saw some horror storys during the boom, What new amendments would they be ?

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 1:50am

masonchat wrote: »

Maybe i was lucky but mainly i found the standard to be good , but of course there are always people bad at their job, like you i saw some horror storys during the boom, What new amendments would they be ?

Do these new building amendments cover extensions and renovating cottages or soon to be added

Gumbo · 14-11-2014 1:50am

duckcfc wrote: »

Do these new building amendments cover extensions and renovating cottages?

Yes, depending on the extent and scope,of the job. Google SI9.

masonchat · 14-11-2014 1:51am

I am not aware of the new building amendments you are refering to ?

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 1:52am

kceire wrote: »

Yes, depending on the extent and scope,of the job. Google SI9.

Can you define it abit more where you say extent and scope of the job?

masonchat · 14-11-2014 1:53am

On the 1st March 2014, new regulations (S.I. 9 of 2014) relating to the
commencement and certification of construction works come into effect.
For certain building works, the new regulations require that certificates of
compliance and other documents must be submitted
with the Commencement Notice.

The additional requirements also include:
• the nomination of a competent ‘Assigned Certifier’ to inspect and
certify the works,
• the assignment of a competent builder to carry out the works,
• the submission of certificates of compliance on completion.

The additional requirements apply to the following works:
Construction of a dwelling
Extension of a dwelling by more than 40 square metres.
Works which require a Fire Safety Certificate.

Any Commencement Notice submitted after the 1st March 2014, which come within
the scope of S.I 9 of 2014
must fill out an online assessment of the proposed approach to compliance with
the Building Regulations
and be accompanied by the following:
• Certificate of Compliance (Design),
• Notice of Assignment of Person to Inspect and Certify Works (Assigned Certifier),
• Undertaking by Assigned Certifier,
• Notice of Assignment of Builder,
• Undertaking by builder
• General arrangement drawings for building control purposes –
plans, sections and elevations;
• A schedule of design documents currently prepared or to be prepared at a later date,
• The preliminary inspection plan,
• Any other documents deemed appropriate by the Assigned Certifier.

REFERENCE - LOCALGOV.IE WEBSITE

scwazrh · 14-11-2014 2:00am

duckcfc wrote: »

is anyone able to set up a company without any papers in this country and work away at these trades privately.

Unfortunately the answer is yes .

Anyone can decide tonight that they are a builder , register a company on a 48 hr fasttrack registration and then begin contracting within the construction industry.Behind the veil of a limited company there will be no comeback to them and add in insurance and they will be covered even more.

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 2:02am

masonchat wrote: »

On the 1st March 2014, new regulations (S.I. 9 of 2014) relating to the
commencement and certification of construction works come into effect.
For certain building works, the new regulations require that certificates of
compliance and other documents must be submitted
with the Commencement Notice.

The additional requirements also include:
• the nomination of a competent ‘Assigned Certifier’ to inspect and
certify the works,
• the assignment of a competent builder to carry out the works,
• the submission of certificates of compliance on completion.

The additional requirements apply to the following works:
Construction of a dwelling
Extension of a dwelling by more than 40 square metres.
Works which require a Fire Safety Certificate.

Any Commencement Notice submitted after the 1st March 2014, which come within
the scope of S.I 9 of 2014
must fill out an online assessment of the proposed approach to compliance with
the Building Regulations
and be accompanied by the following:
• Certificate of Compliance (Design),
• Notice of Assignment of Person to Inspect and Certify Works (Assigned Certifier),
• Undertaking by Assigned Certifier,
• Notice of Assignment of Builder,
• Undertaking by builder
• General arrangement drawings for building control purposes –
plans, sections and elevations;
• A schedule of design documents currently prepared or to be prepared at a later date,
• The preliminary inspection plan,
• Any other documents deemed appropriate by the Assigned Certifier.

REFERENCE - LOCALGOV.IE WEBSITE

When the self build industry needs a life line, the Irish government throw them a concrete block to swim with. Again, only on this wee little island can our government make things worse than what they are.

Gumbo · 14-11-2014 2:02am

masonchat wrote: »

I am not aware of the new building amendments you are refering to ?

Anybody in the construction industry should be at this stage, especially, architects, engineers and surveyors as they have to act as assigned certifiers.

duckcfc wrote: »

Can you define it abit more where you say extent and scope of the job?

Extension over 40Sq. M has to have a long form of commencement notice and an assigned Certifier.

Renovating cottages spends on what you are doing. Does it need planning? Are you adding floor space? You may need to meet current building regulations, but you may not need an assigned Certifier. Depends on what your doing tbh.

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 2:03am

scwazrh wrote: »

Unfortunately the answer is yes .

Anyone can decide tonight that they are a builder , register a company on a 48 hr fasttrack registration and then begin contracting within the construction industry.Behind the veil of a limited company there will be no comeback to them and add in insurance and they will be covered even more.

How can they get Insurance if they've no papers!

Gumbo · 14-11-2014 2:04am

duckcfc wrote: »

When the self build industry needs a life line, the Irish government throw them a concrete block to swim with. Again, only on this wee little island can our government make things worse than what they are.

It's been talked about for years. They held talks with the large bodies that acted on behalf of architects etc doesn't mean they listened though.

Gumbo · 14-11-2014 2:05am

scwazrh wrote: »

Unfortunately the answer is yes .

Anyone can decide tonight that they are a builder , register a company on a 48 hr fasttrack registration and then begin contracting within the construction industry.Behind the veil of a limited company there will be no comeback to them and add in insurance and they will be covered even more.

Sure
Y insurance can't be obtained.
Health and safety statement has to be registered against the company, no?

Anyway, the CIRI will do away with this in a year or two with the mandatory registration of builders.

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 2:06am

kceire wrote: »

Anybody in the construction industry should be at this stage, especially, architects, engineers and surveyors as they have to act as assigned certifiers.

Extension over 40Sq. M has to have a long form of commencement notice and an assigned Certifier.

Renovating cottages spends on what you are doing. Does it need planning? Are you adding floor space? You may need to meet current building regulations, but you may not need an assigned Certifier. Depends on what your doing tbh.

What building regs would one need to renovate a cottage without an extension. I thought all one needed to do was go in and put it back to the way it was it modern materials/ some insulation and that would cover ya.

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 2:07am

kceire wrote: »

It's been talked about for years. They held talks with the large bodies that acted on behalf of architects etc doesn't mean they listened though.

Can it be changed or do we have to stick with it?

masonchat · 14-11-2014 2:11am

Its probably more about curtailing the black market that building regs , but there you go this government is intent on killing jobs and replacing them with jobs bridge and the like.

They cant seem to see outside the box in terms of spending money to create jobs , that working people have more money to spend thus fuel further jobs , no lets squeese and squeese and squeese until its all dead, they will realise the errors of their ways im sure , when its all too late

scwazrh · 14-11-2014 2:54am

kceire wrote: »

Sure
Y insurance can't be obtained.
Health and safety statement has to be registered against the company, no?

Anyway, the CIRI will do away with this in a year or two with the mandatory registration of builders.

Ive never been asked for a copy of our health and safety statement from the insurance company and I have never been asked to prove my own or my companies qualifications at any stage in the last 18 years.Even acting as PSCS once we tell a customer or a management company that we are competent , they accept it.

scwazrh · 14-11-2014 3:01am

kceire wrote: »

Anyway, the CIRI will do away with this in a year or two with the mandatory registration of builders.

Please do correct me where I'm wrong here .(not being a smart ar*e)
Where is it stated that builders will legally have to register with the ciri?

I have no intention of registering our company with the ciri as I view it as another division of the CIF ,and without doubt they will charge us for the pleasure of them agreeing with us that we carry out works above and beyond the required standards.

to the best of my knowledge the ciri is a voluntary scheme not mandatory.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 14-11-2014 3:11am

duckcfc wrote: »

What you mean find a better handyman.

I know about the levy and gas that needs to be registered but what about the other trades.

I'm a plasterer myself, come from a plastering family and not one of us has our papers and have never been asked for them either.

If you or none of your family have papers would yous not be considered skilled labourers rather than plasterers?
I assumed to be a qualified tradesman you would have to complete an apprenticeship.
For instance moving to another country like Australia etc they look for these qualifications.

RITwing · 14-11-2014 9:43am

scwazrh wrote: »

to the best of my knowledge the ciri is a voluntary scheme not mandatory.

The day is approaching where in order to get the job the client will ask you to sign an appointment as builder - in a form of words that is laid down by law. That form will require you to state CIRI membership or else the form will not be acceptable to the local authority.

My earnest hope is that when more and more small builders and their would be clients wake up to this and all the other wonderful new (since March ) regulations that they will make the govt feel their displeasure.

In the meantime the pennies drop slowly ....

BryanF · 14-11-2014 11:00am

duckcfc wrote: »

What building regs would one need to renovate a cottage without an extension. I thought all one needed to do was go in and put it back to the way it was it modern materials/ some insulation and that would cover ya.

This sums up a major problem irish homeowners face! 'Some insulation''that'll cover ya'... Mold, carbon monoxide, carcinogen's..

Gumbo · 14-11-2014 11:23am

duckcfc wrote: »

What building regs would one need to renovate a cottage without an extension. I thought all one needed to do was go in and put it back to the way it was it modern materials/ some insulation and that would cover ya.

You need to describe what you are doing first. What state is the current house in. Are you building any new external walls. Are you adding a new boiler. Are you adding windows. They are Part A, Part L, Part B and Part J for starters.

duckcfc wrote: »

Can it be changed or do we have to stick with it?

It's here for good now. You have to work with it.

scwazrh wrote: »

Ive never been asked for a copy of our health and safety statement from the insurance company and I have never been asked to prove my own or my companies qualifications at any stage in the last 18 years.Even acting as PSCS once we tell a customer or a management company that we are competent , they accept it.

My parents are getting a small extension done at present. First this I requested was a copy of the builders health and safety statement, copy of his insurances showing his limits on public liability etc
I also got confirmation in writing that all site workers are safe pass passed and that any sub contractors conibg to the site confirm their insurances with the builder.

scwazrh wrote: »

Please do correct me where I'm wrong here .(not being a smart ar*e)
Where is it stated that builders will legally have to register with the ciri?

I have no intention of registering our company with the ciri as I view it as another division of the CIF ,and without doubt they will charge us for the pleasure of them agreeing with us that we carry out works above and beyond the required standards.

to the best of my knowledge the ciri is a voluntary scheme not mandatory.

Then you may not gay any work in the future other than Mickey Mouse extensions. All commencement notices will/does have a portion to fill in the contractors CIRI membership number. It's not enforced at present but please read up on it as it will be mandatory in a year or two as i said.

RITwing · 14-11-2014 11:51am

duckcfc you have some reading to do

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 11:56am

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

If you or none of your family have papers would yous not be considered skilled labourers rather than plasterers?
I assumed to be a qualified tradesman you would have to complete an apprenticeship.
For instance moving to another country like Australia etc they look for these qualifications.

We are plasterers and excellent plasterers at that. We don't need some Micky mouse paper telling us were plasterers. Just between 3 of us(there's more) we have 80 yes experience gathered up plastering, working here and England. Dont think for one min we aren't plasterers and some kid that's just left collage with papers is. If I where needing a plasterer to do work for me, I know what one I'd choose

duckcfc · 14-11-2014 11:59am

kceire wrote: »

You need to describe what you are doing first. What state is the current house in. Are you building any new external walls. Are you adding a new boiler. Are you adding windows. They are Part A, Part L, Part B and Part J for starters.

It's here for good now. You have to work with it.

My parents are getting a small extension done at present. First this I requested was a copy of the builders health and safety statement, copy of his insurances showing his limits on public liability etc
I also got confirmation in writing that all site workers are safe pass passed and that any sub contractors conibg to the site confirm their insurances with the builder.

Then you may not gay any work in the future other than Mickey Mouse extensions. All commencement notices will/does have a portion to fill in the contractors CIRI membership number. It's not enforced at present but please read up on it as it will be mandatory in a year or two as i said.

What's the current costs added for all these new changes for ones business.

laws on handymen

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