Free travel passes in the Indo

n97 mini · 04-11-2014 6:07pm #1

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/free-travel-passes-are-pricing-the-rest-of-us-out-of-train-travel-30715164.html

I really don't know why the FTP isn't a personalised Leap card, for which exact fares are paid at the end of the month/quarter etc by the DSW, and none of this wooliness. Putting up the fares of everyone else while not knowing exactly who is travelling for free, and where they're travelling is nuts. Only in Ireland.

Gatling · 04-11-2014 6:13pm

Over 65 ' s causing trouble again.

It's been done to death the government won't touch or means test the free travel pass especially not for the over 65's .
There is a shake up currently on going targeted at pass holders .
It's very slow progress

hfallada · 04-11-2014 6:21pm

n97 mini wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/free-travel-passes-are-pricing-the-rest-of-us-out-of-train-travel-30715164.html

I really don't know why the FTP isn't a personalised Leap card, for which exact fares are paid at the end of the month/quarter etc by the DSW, and none of this wooliness. Putting up the fares of everyone else while not knowing exactly who is travelling for free, and where they're travelling is nuts. Only in Ireland.

Well be thankful that the Government finally realised that a piece of paper for a travel pass was too easy to counterfeit. So they replaced them with a harder to counterfeit plastic card. They only changed the drivers licenses to plastic card due to EU regulations.

CIE gets a chuck of its revenue from free travel. A reduction in funding for free travel will basically bankrupt it(but the state will pick up the tab anyway). A much better opinion would be reduced fares for OAPs. No other country in the world I know gives free travel to OAPs. Some countries give them 50% off full fares(like they do for students, but students only get 20% off, which is the same as tax saver ticket usually. So they dont get any real reduction on the fare).

Its political suicide to make any changes to free travel. The best the Government can do is an annual fee or restrict travel to certain hours. They should at least charge them something for long distance travel. But I cant imagine any party having the balls to change it

LXFlyer · 04-11-2014 6:21pm

n97 mini wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/free-travel-passes-are-pricing-the-rest-of-us-out-of-train-travel-30715164.html

I really don't know why the FTP isn't a personalised Leap card, for which exact fares are paid at the end of the month/quarter etc by the DSW, and none of this wooliness. Putting up the fares of everyone else while not knowing exactly who is travelling for free, and where they're travelling is nuts. Only in Ireland.

Quite simple - they don't have the funds to reimburse the companies for every trip.

The passes are going to be smartcards - this is being rolled out as we speak.

n97 mini · 04-11-2014 8:42pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Quite simple - they don't have the funds to reimburse the companies for every trip.

They don't pay the same for medication for those lucky enough to have a medical card as those who have to pay for their own medication. Those that pay for their own pay approximately double, subsidising medical card holders.

I would see the fares as being similar. i.e. fares for FTP holders would be half what they are for everyone else, but at the same time the authorities would have some metrics.

I believe the current set of metrics in use date back to 1973 or something.

Victor · 04-11-2014 11:35pm

n97 mini wrote: »

They don't pay the same for medication for those lucky enough to have a medical card as those who have to pay for their own medication. Those that pay for their own pay approximately double, subsidising medical card holders.

Let's not get into a detailed discussion about non-transport related topics.

Moderator

Only today, I think it was the IMO was suggesting a €5 charge for medical card holders to visit GPs. Medical card holders already pay a prescription fee at pharmacies. However, these are more about poison prevention and preventing waste / over use than about bringing in money. However, these measures don't directly affect those who can't avail of the scheme - one doesn't pay more because someone else has a medical card. The schemes only really affect the taxpayer. Also, most medical costs can be written off against income tax.

Especially of a time of financial necessity, providing free travel to such a large cohort and concessionary fares to children (free up to 4th birthday, much reduced fares up to 19th birthday) and the Taxsaver scheme to those who avail of it creates an imbalance whereby the marginal cost to other users is high, thereby discouraging use.

The author of the article would be well served to check webfares on irishrail.ie where Dublin-Killarney can be had for €48-54 (€68-86 first class) travelling Friday, 28 November 2014 and Sunday, 30 November 2014

n97 mini · 05-11-2014 1:09am

Victor wrote: »

Let's not get into a detailed discussion about non-transport related topics.

Moderator

Only today, I think it was the IMO was suggesting a €5 charge for medical card holders to visit GPs. Medical card holders already pay a prescription fee at pharmacies. However, these are more about poison prevention and preventing waste / over use than about bringing in money. However, these measures don't directly affect those who can't avail of the scheme - one doesn't pay more because someone else has a medical card. The schemes only really affect the taxpayer. Also, most medical costs can be written off against income tax.

n97 mini · 05-11-2014 1:16am

Victor wrote: »

one doesn't pay more because someone else has a medical card

Yes one does, you need to look up the history of it. The govt did a deal whereby pharmacies charge a ~100% markup to private patients in exchange for a greatly reduced markup for medical card holders (paid by the state). Iirc it was a FG govt that did the deal.

Kristopherus · 05-11-2014 1:21am

n97 mini wrote: »

Yes one does, you need to look up the history of it. The govt did a deal whereby pharmacies charge a ~100% markup to private patients in exchange for a greatly reduced markup for medical card holders (paid by the state). Iirc it was a FG govt that did the deal.

When did this happen? The HSE had reduced the profit margin to 50%.

better call saul · 05-11-2014 1:22am

hfallada wrote: »

Well be thankful that the Government finally realised that a piece of paper for a travel pass was too easy to counterfeit. So they replaced them with a harder to counterfeit plastic card. They only changed the drivers licenses to plastic card due to EU regulations.

CIE gets a chuck of its revenue from free travel. A reduction in funding for free travel will basically bankrupt it(but the state will pick up the tab anyway). A much better opinion would be reduced fares for OAPs. No other country in the world I know gives free travel to OAPs. Some countries give them 50% off full fares(like they do for students, but students only get 20% off, which is the same as tax saver ticket usually. So they dont get any real reduction on the fare).

Its political suicide to make any changes to free travel. The best the Government can do is an annual fee or restrict travel to certain hours. They should at least charge them something for long distance travel. But I cant imagine any party having the balls to change it

Hungary.

Free travel to all eu citizens over 65 with proof of age. You mustn't have researched it very hard...

Losty Dublin · 05-11-2014 2:07am

Victor wrote: »

The author of the article would be well served to check webfares on irishrail.ie where Dublin-Killarney can be had for €48-54 (€68-86 first class) travelling Friday, 28 November 2014 and Sunday, 30 November 2014

I am also in awe of her petrol car doing the return trip to Kerry for €30. As of today's prices that's barely 20 litres of fuel, getting her an impressive 30KM+ per litre!

Banjoxed · 05-11-2014 5:34pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I am also in awe of her petrol car doing the return trip to Kerry for €30. As of today's prices that's barely 20 litres of fuel, getting her an impressive 30KM+ per litre!

Maybe she drives Fred Flintstone's car, augmented by the power of her own two feet?

ardmacha · 05-11-2014 5:55pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Maybe she drives Fred Flintstone's car, augmented by the power of her own two feet?

Perhaps she was driving like an OAP?

Banjoxed · 05-11-2014 7:16pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps she was driving like an OAP?

Golly, you're right. Give the poor woman a FT-P card..

n97 mini · 05-11-2014 9:32pm

She probably doesn't drive. If she did, she probably wouldn't be getting the train.

AlekSmart · 06-11-2014 2:12am

better call saul wrote: »

Hungary.

Free travel to all eu citizens over 65 with proof of age. You mustn't have researched it very hard...

Ah yes,but the Hungarian Government want to tax Internet Access...somebody has to pay for the Free Stuff,no matter where.

http://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Types/Annual-Tickets/CIE-All-Services-Irish-Rail-Dublin-Bus--Bus-Eireann/

*Price for a 2015 CIE All Services Pass,valid on ALL Scheduled BAC/BE/IE Services in the State.....€6,220.

Cookie_Monster · 06-11-2014 2:26am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I am also in awe of her petrol car doing the return trip to Kerry for €30. As of today's prices that's barely 20 litres of fuel, getting her an impressive 30KM+ per litre!

split costs between 2 or more people perhaps...

better call saul · 06-11-2014 3:52pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah yes,but the Hungarian Government want to tax Internet Access...somebody has to pay for the Free Stuff,no matter where.

http://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Types/Annual-Tickets/CIE-All-Services-Irish-Rail-Dublin-Bus--Bus-Eireann/

*Price for a 2015 CIE All Services Pass,valid on ALL Scheduled BAC/BE/IE Services in the State.....€6,220.

Aaaaaand that idea has been scrapped

AlekSmart · 07-11-2014 6:56pm

better call saul wrote: »

Aaaaaand that idea has been scrapped

So where are the Hungarian Government going to go for their goulash now...?

cdebru · 08-11-2014 2:54am

Gatling wrote: »

Over 65 ' s causing trouble again.

It's been done to death the government won't touch or means test the free travel pass especially not for the over 65's .
There is a shake up currently on going targeted at pass holders .
It's very slow progress

Over 65's are not the problem it is the extension to all those with a disability and what passes for a disability, ie apparently being a drug addict is a disability. There in lies the real problem but how you address it with affecting g those with "real" disabilities who genuinely need and benefit from the pass I Dont know.

cdebru · 08-11-2014 3:04am

n97 mini wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/free-travel-passes-are-pricing-the-rest-of-us-out-of-train-travel-30715164.html

I really don't know why the FTP isn't a personalised Leap card, for which exact fares are paid at the end of the month/quarter etc by the DSW, and none of this wooliness. Putting up the fares of everyone else while not knowing exactly who is travelling for free, and where they're travelling is nuts. Only in Ireland.

Yes you do know why the FTP is not a personalized leap card for which exact fares are paid by the DSW, because if the DSW had to pay the actual cost then the DOF would soon put a stop to the madness that is free travel for 40% of the adult population, instead we make people who work for a living pay through the nose to subsidise free travel for the 40%.

Gatling · 08-11-2014 3:16am

cdebru wrote: »

Yes you do know why the FTP is not a personalized leap card for which exact fares are paid by the DSW, because if the DSW had to pay the actual cost then the DOF would soon put a stop to the madness that is free travel for 40% of the adult population, instead we make people who work for a living pay through the nose to subsidise free travel for the 40%.

Don't think your figures are correct from the numerous other threads the figure was around 700,000+ issued in so many years 25% give or take not including the silly amount of forged ones in circulation that could push that figure up ,
I won't quote your other post once we get into who should and who shouldn't be entitled to a dsp threads don't last long ,
But current welfare rules state if an illness is going to last 12 months or more then that person is entitled to disability allowence ,massive scope for what's actually considered disability

Tow · 08-11-2014 9:53am

hfallada wrote: »

They only changed the drivers licenses to plastic card due to EU regulations.

If only that was what happened. We were only a few weeks away of moving to plastic cards, when Europe announced plans to introduce a standardised card. With standard PS efficiency, they decided to hold off the introduction as they would have to change the driving licence again. A few years later when the 'standard' was designed. So all the development and equipment (already purchased and ready to go) went to waste and years later we finally got plastic cards.

Losty Dublin · 08-11-2014 11:00am

Gatling wrote: »

Don't think your figures are correct from the numerous other threads the figure was around 700,000+ issued in so many years 25% give or take not including the silly amount of forged ones in circulation that could push that figure up ,

This article from June puts the number of DSP passes at over 780,000. When you take into account spouses and companion passes there are over 1.1 million people who are covered to travel for free under the scheme.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/transport-firms-issue-threat-over-free-travel-scheme-1.1849661

By way of information, here is a PQ from January 2014 that deals with the scheme. It puts a figure of €76 million for the entire scheme. I also enclose an interesting quote from the PQ for our interest.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014013000044

"To this end, compensation under the scheme is calculated on the basis of fares foregone at a reduced rate to take account of travel generated by the free travel scheme. Those operators which participate in the scheme receive a payment from the Department significantly below the standard fare whereas those operators which do not participate in the scheme are free to charge full fare for all passengers. Operators and routes have to be commercially viable in their own right and cannot rely on payment from the free travel scheme as some form of subvention."

AlekSmart · 08-11-2014 1:11pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This article from June puts the number of DSP passes at over 780,000. When you take into account spouses and companion passes there are over 1.1 million people who are covered to travel for free under the scheme.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/transport-firms-issue-threat-over-free-travel-scheme-1.1849661

By way of information, here is a PQ from January 2014 that deals with the scheme. It puts a figure of €76 million for the entire scheme. I also enclose an interesting quote from the PQ for our interest.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014013000044

"To this end, compensation under the scheme is calculated on the basis of fares foregone at a reduced rate to take account of travel generated by the free travel scheme. Those operators which participate in the scheme receive a payment from the Department significantly below the standard fare whereas those operators which do not participate in the scheme are free to charge full fare for all passengers. Operators and routes have to be commercially viable in their own right and cannot rely on payment from the free travel scheme as some form of subvention."

In any debate on the Free Travel Scheme,the use of the term OAP Pass needs to be robustly challenged.

Persons of Pension age comprise less than 50% of the c.780,000 Passes now in circulation.

The 2013 figures indicate some interesting classifications,particularly the 102,062 FTP holders described as "Others".
This,when coupled with c.158,000 on disability/invalidity tends to disprove the Media fixation with the scheme being OAP related...it has long since been otherwise.

The ONLY study ever commissioned on the "Free Schemes" is now some 15 years old and can be accessed here.....http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf

The study comprises ALL of the State's "Free Schemes" with the FTS being number 3 on their list.

Few Journalists,if any,ever bother to delve into the arcane facts surrounding these kind of scheme's,even if only to note that the FTS itself has no legal standing.

Sec. 3 Page.65 "Because the Free Travel Scheme is administrative,with no statutory basis,the Department has no legislative grounds on which to prosecute offenders who use invalid or forged passes,therefore there is little or no deterrent"

Equally revealing at the Oireachtas committee sittings referenced by Losty Dublin,was the fact that the distribution of the DSP's Free Travel funding is carried out under an arrangement fixed in 1973,which still stands today.

There is little doubt in my mind,that the FTS as currently operated,has reached meltdown.

It is however a particularly hot Political Potato,and one which is being passed from dept to dept in the hope that somebody will finally solve the issue.

The FTS misuse/fraud issue has become so ingrained and endemic within the scheme,with the possibility of Operators successfully enforcing it's T's & C's never existing at all (as NO legal grounds exist to so do)

The DSP has thus taken the initial step,with its Smart Card issuance programme,which,of itself,will reduce the numbers of Passes by a substantial number as invalid Cardboard passes are detected by this means alone.

The next step (Q2 2015) will address the issue of "He/She's with me" users rushing past with a "Pass Holder Only" document...Entry validation will end this practice,seeing another drop in user figures.

The third Smart Card element,an expiry date on each card,will ensure that 110 year old persons regularly travelling on Irelands Public Transport will suddenly disappear from view.

We can thus see that 2016 will be a momentuous year for the Free Travel Scheme,and a fitting centennial celebration of 1916 it surely will be !

Gatling · 08-11-2014 1:23pm

I'd still love to know what the 102,000 others represent

AlekSmart · 08-11-2014 2:11pm

Gatling wrote: »

I'd still love to know what the 102,000 others represent

I suspect it's an Ecumenical Matter........;)

Realt Dearg Sec · 08-11-2014 2:19pm

better call saul wrote: »

Hungary.

Free travel to all eu citizens over 65 with proof of age. You mustn't have researched it very hard...

Fair enough there's a country with free travel, but it's a problematic model for Ireland, where for some bizarre reason everyone thinks public transport is failing off it isn't profitable. Hungary is at the other extreme, where their transport system is a massive drain on public finances. They have concessions for everyone, if you're a widow, it's free. Which I'm sure everyone would support. But I had a huge concession because I was a teacher when I lived there! There were concessions for virtually every public sector career. Nearly nobody paid full fare basically. I could travel three hours on the train for about five quid return.

mickydoomsux · 08-11-2014 3:17pm

Gatling wrote: »

I'd still love to know what the 102,000 others represent

The grab bag of people known as 'the disadvantaged'

KCAccidental · 08-11-2014 3:33pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Fair enough there's a country with free travel, but it's a problematic model for Ireland, where for some bizarre reason everyone thinks public transport is failing off it isn't profitable. Hungary is at the other extreme, where their transport system is a massive drain on public finances. They have concessions for everyone, if you're a widow, it's free. Which I'm sure everyone would support. But I had a huge concession because I was a teacher when I lived there! There were concessions for virtually every public sector career. Nearly nobody paid full fare basically. I could travel three hours on the train for about five quid return.

more than likely a hangover from state socialism.

cdebru · 09-11-2014 1:34am

Gatling wrote: »

I'd still love to know what the 102,000 others represent

Wouldn't count for the 102,000 but, I would imagine asylum seekers in direct provision have one, also people with compassionate leave to remain ( I know a couple of people in that bracket) they definitely have one.
If its not included in the breakdown carers are entitled to one even if they Dont qualify for carers allowance, and probably like the medical card I would imagine that there is provision for supply them on need even if the person doesn't otherwise qualify, like people with an illness requiring hospital visits but who Dont qualify for a social welfare payment etc.

Free travel passes in the Indo

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