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Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »Is there road space available?
The only space available along the N1 is the existing bus lane which if shared with DB will be no faster than the existing DB services. If the bus lane is to be given over to BRT then many DB services will need to be rerouted and BRT lane will still be susceptible to obstruction from traffic turning on/off from the many junctions along the route. Segregation is a basic element of BRT.
You're asking the wrong questions -- it's not a matter of is there road space available, but: Can road space be allocated? The answer is clearly yes.
The project includes dealing with current NTA routes which are opperrated on contract by Dublin Bus, including merging some of the routes with the BRT. One of the reasons Dublin Bus is to opprate the BRT seems to be helping with this transition.
In any case, slow buses are hardly a notable issue on the corridor compared to buses getting stuck in traffic.Pete_Cavan wrote: »We need to see proper road layout drawings to see the level of separation but I cant see how a decent level of service can be provided along the route.
We do indeed. And until we see such we don't know what kind of BRT we are being sold by the NTA.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Many of the benefits of BRT (off board ticketing, multiple doors, traffic light priority, fewer stops) could be implemented on DB. We seem to be reinventing the wheel but not even bothering to make it round.
If that counts as "reinventing the wheel" -- the NTA are just following the "reinventing" which has happened with BRT projects around the world.0 -
You're asking the wrong questions -- it's not a matter of is there road space available, but: Can road space be allocated? The answer is clearly yes.
Are you suggesting that there is space for BRT lane, a normal bus lane, normal traffic lane plus any necessary turn off lanes on Drumcondra Road? Obviously there isnt so either some of these are removed from the road altogether or some have to share space, as you say it is a question of how the available space is allocated. The images on the NTA website suggest BRT and DB will be allocated the same space, which is pointless.
Bus can be slow for a number of reasons (dwell time at stops due to passengers boarding having to wait for passengers alighting, passengers purchasing tickets from driver, frequency of stops, obstructions caused by other traffic), my point is if BRT and DB are sharing a lane, those factors will hamper BRT by virtue of the fact that the DB in front has to contend with them, even if BRT doesnt. Basically a shared lane wont work because the DB buses will hold up the BRT.In any case, slow buses are hardly a notable issue on the corridor compared to buses getting stuck in traffic.
What I mean is we are reinventing the city's bus service when we could be applying the principles of BRT to DB. And again I have to come back to the point that unless the BRT has a dedicated lane we are leaving out one of vital components of the design (a bit like making a wheel but not making it round). Other BRT projects around the world have a dedicated lane, otherwise they would just call it a bus service.If that counts as "reinventing the wheel" -- the NTA are just following the "reinventing" which has happened with BRT projects around the world.0 -
The project includes dealing with current NTA routes which are opperrated on contract by Dublin Bus, including merging some of the routes with the BRT
Why are you being so obtuse? It's very simple- if the BRT infrastructure is to be shared with existing DB services, and not all the existing DB services are converted to BRT, the system will very simply not work due to mode conflicts.
From your cryptic post do you believe all DB services on the corridors will be converted to BRT?0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »Are you suggesting that there is space for BRT lane, a normal bus lane, normal traffic lane plus any necessary turn off lanes on Drumcondra Road? Obviously there isnt so either some of these are removed from the road altogether or some have to share space, as you say it is a question of how the available space is allocated.
I'm suggesting there's room for a two footpath, two cycle paths, two general travel lanes, and two BRT lanes (preferably in between the general traffic lanes (shared or not).
In some locations there will still be room for parking/loading, and some turning lanes can be retained, but turning restrictions and single lanes for turning and straight movements is also possible.Pete_Cavan wrote: »The images on the NTA website suggest BRT and DB will be allocated the same space, which is pointless.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Bus can be slow for a number of reasons (dwell time at stops due to passengers boarding having to wait for passengers alighting, passengers purchasing tickets from driver, frequency of stops, obstructions caused by other traffic), my point is if BRT and DB are sharing a lane, those factors will hamper BRT by virtue of the fact that the DB in front has to contend with them, even if BRT doesnt. Basically a shared lane wont work because the DB buses will hold up the BRT.
What kind of BRT are you familiar with? Just the very high-end larger-scale BRT (ie China, South America). At its very best, BRT in Dublin will be more like French or Dutch BRT. At this point, you're being overly negative. It seems there's only problems, but the reality is that there's a whole host solutions:- Yes, there's loads of reasons for delay, but the reality is that the number one reason for delay -- by a long shot -- is traffic / a lack of bus priority. That's a problem which will be largely fixed for all buses when the infrastructure changes go in and bus priority is given at lights.
- Another infrastructure fix is likely to be removing frequent stops for all on any section shared with BRT -- and/or the extra 'local' stops could be out of the way of the BRT buses.
- Centre-of-road BRT allows for overtaking.
- You can have bus stops long enough for two buses.
- You can also have restrictions on passengers purchasing tickets from driver while in the BRT corridor.
Pete_Cavan wrote: »What I mean is we are reinventing the city's bus service when we could be applying the principles of BRT to DB. And again I have to come back to the point that unless the BRT has a dedicated lane we are leaving out one of vital components of the design (a bit like making a wheel but not making it round). Other BRT projects around the world have a dedicated lane, otherwise they would just call it a bus service.
I think it's a bit more than contradictory talking about rolling out the some of the principles of BRT to DB as an alternative to BRT while also talking about BRT needing dedicated lanes.
The fact is that the NTA's BRT project is a major move to applying the principles of BRT to Dublin's bus routes.TheBandicoot wrote: »Why are you being so obtuse?... From your cryptic post
Not sure what part of the post you quoted is obtuse or cryptic?TheBandicoot wrote: »It's very simple- if the BRT infrastructure is to be shared with existing DB services, and not all the existing DB services are converted to BRT, the system will very simply not work due to mode conflicts.
In the context of bus priority measures such as bus lanes right up to junctions and bus priority traffic lights, what exactly does "not work" mean? Will it be less reliable than the current offering?0 - Yes, there's loads of reasons for delay, but the reality is that the number one reason for delay -- by a long shot -- is traffic / a lack of bus priority. That's a problem which will be largely fixed for all buses when the infrastructure changes go in and bus priority is given at lights.
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Join Date:Posts: 19093
Why not practice the princilpes of BRT with the Luas. Priority at lights should be a given, but Luas trams appear to wait at all junctions, with no priority at all. I was on a Luas goimg from Connolly to Long Mile Road and would have arrived at least 10 mins earlier if the tram had priority at all lights (not stopping). After Museum, we were sat for 4 mins waiting for the light to change to cross into Heuston. Trams should know the light will change in their favour before reaching a junction.
A simple improvement that would add a bit of credability to the BRT project.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »Is there road space available?
The only space available along the N1 is the existing bus lane which if shared with DB will be no faster than the existing DB services. If the bus lane is to be given over to BRT then many DB services will need to be rerouted and BRT lane will still be susceptible to obstruction from traffic turning on/off from the many junctions along the route. Segregation is a basic element of BRT.
We need to see proper road layout drawings to see the level of separation but I cant see how a decent level of service can be provided along the route. Many of the benefits of BRT (off board ticketing, multiple doors, traffic light priority, fewer stops) could be implemented on DB. We seem to be reinventing the wheel but not even bothering to make it round.
It doesnt fill me with confidence that the emerging preferred route maps on the NTA website do not match the map on the information which was posted out.
Until we see the EIS we are not going to able to judge exactly what this scheme proposes in terms of how road space will be shared, and how regular bus services will integrate with the BRT service.
My earlier comment was in the context that the Swords QBC has more roadspace available along the entire route than any of the other corridors.
As for the last paragraph - the website hasn't been updated yet and still reflects the first round of consultations (I assume it will be updated next week) so I think you're putting the cart before the horse.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Why not practice the princilpes of BRT with the Luas. Priority at lights should be a given, but Luas trams appear to wait at all junctions, with no priority at all. I was on a Luas goimg from Connolly to Long Mile Road and would have arrived at least 10 mins earlier if the tram had priority at all lights (not stopping). After Museum, we were sat for 4 mins waiting for the light to change to cross into Heuston. Trams should know the light will change in their favour before reaching a junction.
A simple improvement that would add a bit of credability to the BRT project.
The Red line LUAS does not have any priority at traffic lights in the city centre from Benburb Street to Beresford Place - it was switched off as it caused mayhem with traffic.
There is a balance to be struck - the knock-on impact on all of the routes that it crossed was deemed to be too great.
It does however still retain priority at other junctions.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19093
The Red line LUAS does not have any priority at traffic lights in the city centre from Benburb Street to Beresford Place - it was switched off as it caused mayhem with traffic.
There is a balance to be struck - the knock-on impact on all of the routes that it crossed was deemed to be too great.
It does however still retain priority at other junctions.
I noticed Parkgate St travelling towards Heuston was a long delay and this is outside the area you cite. There clearly is no priority there, nor at the BlackHorse. It appeared to me that the tram stopped at every junction.
Will the same effect not apply to the BRT project - no priority because of the effect on other traffic? Is that not the proof that BRT is a waste of money if it cannot be seperated? Garret Fitzgerald wanted the Luas to go underground for this very reason but too many objected because underground was too scary, etc.0 -
It normally does have priority at those junctions - not sure why it wouldn't have worked. Even with the priority it can stop for a short time depending on the traffic light cycle.
The impact of priority for BRT at junctions will not be as great as it will be already on the major thoroughfare rather than crossing them as the red line LUAS does.0 -
Until we see the EIS we are not going to able to judge exactly what this scheme proposes in terms of how road space will be shared, and how regular bus services will integrate with the BRT service.
My earlier comment was in the context that the Swords QBC has more roadspace available along the entire route than any of the other corridors.
As for the last paragraph - the website hasn't been updated yet and still reflects the first round of consultations (I assume it will be updated next week) so I think you're putting the cart before the horse.
Lxflyer is correct here,as the divil will be in the detail,suitably deep within it so as to be overshadowed by more "Important" stuff such as vehicle colour,interior ambience and multi-lingual signage etc etc.
The REAL issue with the BRT schemes,as currently proffered by the NTA,is the reality of significant lessening of access to the City Centre by Private Car.
As with all State sponsored schemes,there will be much Jesuitical wording and a great dollop of high-end PR effort into calling spades by other names,but make no mistake,this €600,000,000 project is the first FULLY focused Public Transport project in which Private Motoring will be significantly restricted solely by the new BRT's right of access.
The relevant agencies,DCC,NTA,Dept of Environment,Gardai and Dublin Bus have,individually and co-operatively done the number-crunching with as many volumes of Statistics as could be required all at the end of a finger.
The relevant Traffic Census figures,traditionally gathered manually each year,are now backed up by a significant amount of electronically gathered data,via mobile CCTV/ANPR arrays,Garda Traffic Corps Obs and contracted aerial obs.
The same agencies,again,individually and collectively,all know the requirements to allow the BRT scheme to deliver reliably on it's target figures.
All that is now required is for the Leadership to say Yea or Nay....that remains an imponderable,perhaps even more so after the electoral and public protest events if the past 48 hours.
Monument is quite correct in his take on it....BRT can perform as it is designed,and can do so within current road curteilage as well....however,to do so,has to involve a very significant reduction in current Private Vehicle access to that same Roadspace.....This remains the core difficulty...How to market this reduction to a Public now not keen to embrace any more "Impositions" on their percieved "Freedoms".Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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So this won't be run by dublin bus?0
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isn't that not a case of tough? luas is a light rail system, so it should get priority over all other trafficThe Red line LUAS does not have any priority at traffic lights in the city centre from Benburb Street to Beresford Place - it was switched off as it caused mayhem with traffic.
There is a balance to be struck - the knock-on impact on all of the routes that it crossed was deemed to be too great.
It does however still retain priority at other junctions.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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conor.hogan.2 wrote: »So this won't be run by dublin bus?
It is expected to be operated by Dublin Bus.
However you have to remember that slowly but surely the NTA are taking over responsibility for the design and management of the public transport network and that the operating companies are becoming precisely that, operators.0 -
It is expected to be operated by Dublin Bus.
However you have to remember that slowly but surely the NTA are taking over responsibility for the design and management of the public transport network and that the operating companies are becoming precisely that, operators.
Ok grand, I thought I read it won't be managed by DB and thought that meant there would be a new operator.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19093
So if Luas cannot get priority at road junctions, how is BRT expected to get it? The Luas should not even slow down at junctions, let alone stop. BRT will have to compete with buses, coaches and taxis on their own lane, together with cars turning, pedestrians wandering, and still get through every two minutes. Not going to happen - and that is before we consider the inpact of those bendy buses trying to get round corners. However, I expect that they will be painted very nice colours.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »So if Luas cannot get priority at road junctions, how is BRT expected to get it? The Luas should not even slow down at junctions, let alone stop. BRT will have to compete with buses, coaches and taxis on their own lane, together with cars turning, pedestrians wandering, and still get through every two minutes. Not going to happen - and that is before we consider the inpact of those bendy buses trying to get round corners. However, I expect that they will be painted very nice colours.
LUAS does get priority except at the junctions in the city centre that I referred to above, along with Cuffe Street / St Stephen's Green, all of which are where it's crossing major trunk routes.
As I mentioned above the BRT (in the main) will already be on the major trunk route. In the city centre it is likely that we are going to see whole scale traffic realignments to prioritise public transport, with the NTA due to publish plans later this year for revised traffic management during LUAS construction and when it becomes operational.
Until we see the detailed EIS it's impossible to make judgements such as yours. You keep mentioning articulated buses turning corners. Again (at the risk of repeating myself), the problems that Dublin Bus encountered in operating these vehicles in the past were mainly down to effectively zero measures being put in place to operate them properly, such as retreated stop lines (allowing space for the vehicle to swing out as it turned the corners) and extended bus stop cages / bays. This sort of basic road engineering is essential to their operation.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »So if Luas cannot get priority at road junctions, how is BRT expected to get it? The Luas should not even slow down at junctions, let alone stop. BRT will have to compete with buses, coaches and taxis on their own lane, together with cars turning, pedestrians wandering, and still get through every two minutes. Not going to happen - and that is before we consider the inpact of those bendy buses trying to get round corners. However, I expect that they will be painted very nice colours.
Amsterdam's tram lanes are shared with buses and taxis. Shocker: Amsterdam also has a line where metro trains and trams share tracks and stations. The systems still work.
Luas has to stop at many city centre junctions due to red light runners and/or junction blockers. Red light cameras hopefully will cut down on these. A lot of the time people away from one side of the tram or at the back won't see the junction blockers.0 -
There are a few points where the Red line trams must stop that give a poor impression of the service. One in particular is when the tram pulls out of Heuston inbound in the morning and sits on the bridge while traffic on Parkgate Street goes by. It will sit there for several minutes, by which time many people will have 'overtaken' the tram on foot, and you're left stuck standing on a stationary tram like a gobber!0
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There are a few points where the Red line trams must stop that give a poor impression of the service. One in particular is when the tram pulls out of Heuston inbound in the morning and sits on the bridge while traffic on Parkgate Street goes by. It will sit there for several minutes, by which time many people will have 'overtaken' the tram on foot, and you're left stuck standing on a stationary tram like a gobber!
Is that a recent change, because I can certainly recall being stopped there regularly on buses while trams crossed the junction?
The problem is that the red line has to cross several major thoroughfares between Heuston and Busaras, and giving it total priority at junctions caused serious knock on problems to both the cross streets and the Quays (which are parallel), affecting the standard traffic light sequences. This wasn't just affecting cars but also the buses also, which were carrying far greater numbers of passengers.
It's not as simple as some people may think - there is a balancing act to be struck.0 -
end of the road wrote: »isn't that not a case of tough? luas is a light rail system, so it should get priority over all other traffic
Much as I'd like to see that too, you have to keep in mind the impact that that policy would have on all other traffic including Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann and general road traffic. Given the limited road space in the city centre, I'd imagine causing too much congestion would cause problems for the emergency services too.0 -
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Trams also have to yield to pedestrians crossing at junctions, like all other road traffic, if all junctions had pedestrian crossings, then this would eliminate this delayLuas has to stop at many city centre junctions due to red light runners and/or junction blockers. Red light cameras hopefully will cut down on these. A lot of the time people away from one side of the tram or at the back won't see the junction blockers.
The Nta will have to explain away any new/modified cycling infrastructure on the bus route, as they've a 2.5m cycle way min width spec end in their own documentation
At the minute, assuming the cat and cage/st pats is fixed; thee is a pinch point at the Tolka, at Morton stadium, between quick park and the r132 dual carriageway, at the boro image/airside crossroads, and at the bottom of pinnock hill southbound.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19093
If they are to use the bendy bus concept, then it should have at least four sets of wheels to remove the bounce you get from the trailer design used by the previous disasterous design. It also need to be painted bright colours to look like a tram.
Better still, get a tram.0 -
I'm not saying that the tram should have priority at every junction. The one at Heuston is just a bit demoralising since it stops for ages immediately after boarding. Generally when you hop on the tram you want to get the feeling that you're going somewhere fast. I don't know about the traffic light signalling, but I get the impression that unless the tram arrives at the lights within a certain window, it must wait for the sequence to start over.
With BXD, trams will be ubiquitous across the city centre and perhaps this is an opportune time to give full priority to trams. In Zurich trams can control the sequences, and in Brussels trams have priority over every road user. Perhaps we're not yet at that stage in Dublin but given that Luas users will make up a greater mode share in future it might be something to consider.0 -
I would tend to agree with posters here that trams should get priority over any other crossing traffic. The Red line crosses 4 bus corridors in the city centre. Granted the combined flow of those corridors may surpass the red line in terms of passenger numbers, however, the luas doesn't cross all 4 at once each corridor is crossed in isolation, and I would hazard a guess that passenger numbers on the red line in the central area exceed any single bus corridor.
The luas also crosses a number of general traffic lanes but I think at this stage we need to accept that, within the canals anyway, private cars now must be assigned to the bottom of the pecking order.0 -
I would tend to agree with posters here that trams should get priority over any other crossing traffic. The Red line crosses 4 bus corridors in the city centre. Granted the combined flow of those corridors may surpass the red line in terms of passenger numbers, however, the luas doesn't cross all 4 at once each corridor is crossed in isolation, and I would hazard a guess that passenger numbers on the red line in the central area exceed any single bus corridor.
The luas also crosses a number of general traffic lanes but I think at this stage we need to accept that, within the canals anyway, private cars now must be assigned to the bottom of the pecking order.
I would doubt that - bus passenger numbers O'Connell Street alone would outweigh the numbers on the red line, as would the numbers along the Quays which were being adversely affected by knock on effects from traffic attempting to cross the LUAS line.0 -
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The truth is the Red Luas Line should have been built underground in the city center.
Nothing fancy, just cut and cover along it's current route so that it wouldn't have to crawl through the city center.
It will be less of an issue for Luas BXD and Swords BRT as they will naturally follow the main route, so would typically have priority anyway.
Of course all of this would be less of an issue if Metro North and Dart Underground were built.
As for BRT interacting with Dublin Buses, I don't think it will be much of an issue as long as the existing Dublin Bus routes are rearranged to match BRT. For instance:
- 16, 41 will clearly go away, their routes are almost totally duplicated by BRT and these are the most frequent buses on the route
- 1 change it to route it down Ballymun Road
- 11 Redirect it down St Mobhi Road
- 13 Redirect it down Ballymun Road
- 44 Just kill it off!
- Another alternative would be for a mini bus service from the Swords Road BRT servicing the locations the 1 and the 44 do. This bus service could also be extended to serve the east side of the Swords Road, along Griffith Avenue and Grace Park Road, serving the many homes, schools and Colleges that currently have zero bus service.
- Also another alternative for the 11 and 13 (and maybe 1) is to make them direct, non stop to and from town once they hit the Swords Road BRT route. As long as integrated ticketing is made to work properly, people can change to and from the BRT for stops along the route.
Or maybe just not allow them to stop at BRT stops, but only DB stops along the route. Redeisgn these DB bus stops so that they are only at locations where the bus can pull in out of the way of the BRT.
If you do all the above, then their should be little issue with BRT sharing road space with Dublin Bus. It is DB very slow loading times at every little bus stop that is the issue. Eliminate that and there should be little issue with them sharing space.
The one important thing I do think is making sure their is a separate, segregated cycling lane, so bikes aren't in the BRT lane.0 -
I agree that certain bus corridors probably carry more people per hour than the Luas does. But that fact alone doesn't mean that the Luas shouldn't get priority. Luas has been conceived from the get-go as a fast mode of public transport, the hint being in the name. Having it stop many times along its route undermines that. Perhaps at O'Connell St it should wait for bus traffic to pass, but for everywhere else I don't see why it shouldn't have complete priority.0
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This is something that worries me a lot. Bike infrastucture always seems to be an afterthought and tacked on at the end, rather than being integrated from the start.The one important thing I do think is making sure their is a separate, segregated cycling lane, so bikes aren't in the BRT lane.
I wonder if there might be any sense in having the car-bus-bike segregation done in such a way that BRT goes down the middle of the street, with a two-way bike track on one side, and two-way vehicular carriageway on the other. Obviously with the BRT slightly offset from the centreline. This might make biking far more attractive as it would be entirely segregated from other traffic other than at junctions. Side roads would be easier to cross, and right-hand-turns easier to make too.0 -
The truth is the Red Luas Line should have been built underground in the city center.
Nothing fancy, just cut and cover along it's current route so that it wouldn't have to crawl through the city center.
It will be less of an issue for Luas BXD and Swords BRT as they will naturally follow the main route, so would typically have priority anyway.
Of course all of this would be less of an issue if Metro North and Dart Underground were built.
As for BRT interacting with Dublin Buses, I don't think it will be much of an issue as long as the existing Dublin Bus routes are rearranged to match BRT. For instance:
- 16, 41 will clearly go away, their routes are almost totally duplicated by BRT and these are the most frequent buses on the route
- 1 change it to route it down Ballymun Road
- 11 Redirect it down St Mobhi Road
- 13 Redirect it down Ballymun Road
- 44 Just kill it off!
- Another alternative would be for a mini bus service from the Swords Road BRT servicing the locations the 1 and the 44 do. This bus service could also be extended to serve the east side of the Swords Road, along Griffith Avenue and Grace Park Road, serving the many homes, schools and Colleges that currently have zero bus service.
- Also another alternative for the 11 and 13 (and maybe 1) is to make them direct, non stop to and from town once they hit the Swords Road BRT route. As long as integrated ticketing is made to work properly, people can change to and from the BRT for stops along the route.
Or maybe just not allow them to stop at BRT stops, but only DB stops along the route. Redeisgn these DB bus stops so that they are only at locations where the bus can pull in out of the way of the BRT.
If you do all the above, then their should be little issue with BRT sharing road space with Dublin Bus. It is DB very slow loading times at every little bus stop that is the issue. Eliminate that and there should be little issue with them sharing space.
The one important thing I do think is making sure their is a separate, segregated cycling lane, so bikes aren't in the BRT lane.
I very much doubt that the 41 will be killed off. There are large swathes of Swords nowhere near the revised BRT route (all estates south of Rathbeale Road and River Valley are up to 25 minutes walk away) and unless people don't have to pay twice, I can't see them all switching. Added to that you will still need a bus service serving the stops in between the BRT stops along the corridor. The 41 group will be significantly decreased in frequency, but like the bus routes along the LUAS routes I suspect that they will be retained.
There are still long sections (Airside to ALSAA and ALSAA to Northwood) with no stop, along with the Swords Road through Santry.
I think you're probably over-estimating what BRT can deliver. It would be complemented by a reduced 41 service.0 -
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The truth is the Red Luas Line should have been built underground in the city center.
Nothing fancy, just cut and cover along it's current route so that it wouldn't have to crawl through the city center.
shhhhhhhhhhh. suggesting something that would make sense isn't welcome in ireland!!!!!!!!!ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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