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Left old job/Started new job/New conditions after signing a contract...

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  • 16-07-2014 7:57pm
    #1
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭


    Hi, All

    My wife has Masters in Clinical Psychology obtained abroad and the degree has been recognised as level 9 by QQI(Quality and Qualifications Ireland).

    She applied for a job as a social care worker in <employer name mod-snipped>. She gave all documentation required by the future employer.
    She was informed 2 weeks a go that she got the job and signed her contract last Thursday. Meanwhile she left her prevoius work as a childcare assistant last Monday.
    Today she went for an introduction.
    Later this afternoon she got a call from the HR department in <employer name mod-snipped> that there is a problem with her qualification - it's not recognised by HSE.
    The HSE condition has not been discussed at any point of the process of getting the job. In the CV my wife applied with it was clearly stated that her diploma has been recognised by QQI. It has never been said or mentioned anything about the need of HSE qualification recognition.
    The HR girl said that if my wife's degree is not recognised by the HSE, she would loose her new job.

    Could anyone advise us where we stand?

    My wife left her previous work, started the new job and the new condition that has arised may lead to her losing her new job (there is nothing about the the HSE recognition condition in her contract of which we have a copy).

    What can we do here?
    If she's to loose the new job, would she be getting social welfare payments.This is something we do not want to happen, but she would not have any source of income having left old job and being let go by the new employer...

    And the situation gets even more complicated - my wife is 13 weeks pregnant and with no job, as far as we are aware, there would be no maternity leave...

    If you need more info to judge the situation I will provide anything I have.

    Thank you
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Is there ANYTHING in any of the documentation she got that says something like "subject to verification of qualifications/references"?


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    #3
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    Stheno wrote: »
    Is there ANYTHING in any of the documentation she got that says something like "subject to verification of qualifications/references"?

    In the contract and the hand book I can not see anything like "subject to verification of qualifications/references".

    If there has been something like that in the previous documentation, we are not 100% sure. We sent everything they asked for over the last 3 months prior to getting the contract, so it's hard to say. My wife says she would have noticed that. She did not apply for many other jobs because there was clearly stated that the qualification must be recognised by HSE. That's why she is always double checking.

    I wonder if they had the condition mentioned above in the application form and we've missed it... The application form was given to us directly from the Muriosa Foundation and it's not available online elsewhere so we can check...

    However in the Hand book is written that during the probationary period /which is 12 months/ the employment can be terminated without notice during the first 13 weeks...


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    #4
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    I suspect that if you ask, you will be provided paperwork that does mention the need for HSE acceptance of the qualification.

    The bad news here I'm afraid is that your wife has no recourse in that case

    I've no idea what her recourse is if it was never stated.

    Out of curiousity, would it be unusual for qualifications in her field not to be recognised by the HSE and recognised by an alternate authority?

    You've literally no rights in the first year of a job, so the probation clause is perfectly valid.


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    #5
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    Stheno wrote: »
    I suspect that if you ask, you will be provided paperwork that does mention the need for HSE acceptance of the qualification.

    The bad news here I'm afraid is that your wife has no recourse in that case

    I've no idea what her recourse is if it was never stated.

    Out of curiousity, would it be unusual for qualifications in her field not to be recognised by the HSE and recognised by an alternate authority?

    You've literally no rights in the first year of a job, so the probation clause is perfectly valid.

    I would agree with you re: additional paperwork

    The qualification she has can be recognised only by The Psychological Society of Ireland(PSI). It usually takes years to do so and a minimum of 4 months (That in case every single requirement is met).
    Once the recognition is given by PSI, HSE allows you to work in the public sector.
    In private sector you do not need any recognition as long as your employer is happy or you work for yourself.

    <snip> is a LTD company. If they get some funding by the state, we were not aware of it. Obviously they work with HSE if such requirement has come up.

    Had we known about it, my wife would have not applied for the job at all. And she would not have left the old job of course where she's been for the past 3 years.

    And we had a look again at the contract and it was actually prepared by the HR in <snip> on 02.07.2014. It only reached us and got signed by my wife last Thursday...

    On top of that she's at the beginning of the second trimester of her pregnancy...

    Such a mess.

    Tomorrow she's going to CIC to see if they can give her an advice.
    Should we talk to an employment solicitor?

    And OK, let say they let her go... What then... She can't go back to her old job, place is already taken.
    Would she be eligible for a social welfare? Again, we hate to use that option, but if it's the only one we'd have to take it...


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    #6
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,692 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    peposhi wrote: »
    Should we talk to an employment solicitor?

    I really don't see that there's any point.

    She's in the first year of employment and can be let go at any time for no reason at all. Employment contracts in Ireland really aren't worth much for the first year.

    Yes, she likely will be eligible for welfare if they give her a letter saying that her employment is terminated.


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    #7
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    This may be less about Employment Law and more about Contract Law. (I'm going to be careful not to stray into the realms of legal advice - which I am not qualified, or allowed, to offer.

    If the lady applied for a job, and was offered it, that's an Offer. If she accepted it, that's an Acceptance. Of course the offer was conditional, and the company laid out those conditions on the job advert, job spec and person spec - didn't they????

    If the job requires that a qualification be HSE-recognised, then the employer would state that at some stage during the selection process.

    If they didn't, and proceeded to make an offer which the lady relied on, then surely the employer is in some way liable - esp. when they then attempt to withdraw the offer.

    Me, I'd be marching down to see a solicitor - one who knows a contract inside out, and one who knows about Employment Law.

    I suspect the company would rather that the HSE didn't know about this.

    BTW - the lady is pregnant......most unfortunate situation given her condition - I hope she's not too stressed by all this.

    Finally, are there many quals not recognised in this way? Esp. UK ones....unless there are legal or regulatory reasons for it, I'm struggling to understand the difference between a Psychology degree from e.g. Nottingham University and e.g. NUIG?


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    #8
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    blindsider wrote: »
    This may be less about Employment Law and more about Contract Law. (I'm going to be careful not to stray into the realms of legal advice - which I am not qualified, or allowed, to offer.

    If the lady applied for a job, and was offered it, that's an Offer. If she accepted it, that's an Acceptance. Of course the offer was conditional, and the company laid out those conditions on the job advert, job spec and person spec - didn't they????

    If the job requires that a qualification be HSE-recognised, then the employer would state that at some stage during the selection process.

    If they didn't, and proceeded to make an offer which the lady relied on, then surely the employer is in some way liable - esp. when they then attempt to withdraw the offer.

    Me, I'd be marching down to see a solicitor - one who knows a contract inside out, and one who knows about Employment Law.

    I suspect the company would rather that the HSE didn't know about this.

    BTW - the lady is pregnant......most unfortunate situation given her condition - I hope she's not too stressed by all this.

    Finally, are there many quals not recognised in this way? Esp. UK ones....unless there are legal or regulatory reasons for it, I'm struggling to understand the difference between a Psychology degree from e.g. Nottingham University and e.g. NUIG?

    Hi, all

    My wife got a letter today dated 18.07.2014 that says:

    "Further to your call with ...., CNM2 and ..... , HR department, I wish to confirm that as your qualification is not recognised in Ireland and does not allow you to work in our services we must terminate your employment effective immediately.
    As per advertisement you must hold a recognised relevant qualification for the position of Social Care Worker( in line with HIQA).

    You will be paid for you ... hours manual handling training on 26th of June and ... hours induction training. This will be paid on...."

    Now, I am sorry - in the advertisement there was nothing about qualification recognised by the HSE.
    My wife's qualification is recognised by Quality and Qualification Ireland and she can work as self employed or in the private sector.

    The main reason we are upset is not the fact that my wife can not work for them based on their condition. It's the fact that a contract was offered without making clear what are the requirements regarding the recognition which eventually led to loosing the job, having left already her previous job...
    Arrgh...
    I got a phone for a solicitor from a friend who might be able to put this right for us...

    By the way, inthe manual training entry form, my wife had written she's pregnant. That means she did not hide the fact she's pregnant before she got the job...


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    #9
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,277 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    peposhi wrote: »
    Hi, all

    My wife got a letter today dated 18.07.2014 that says:

    "Further to your call with ...., CNM2 and ..... , HR department, I wish to confirm that as your qualification is not recognised in Ireland and does not allow you to work in our services we must terminate your employment effective immediately.
    As per advertisement you must hold a recognised relevant qualification for the position of Social Care Worker( in line with HIQA).

    You will be paid for you ... hours manual handling training on 26th of June and ... hours induction training. This will be paid on...."

    Now, I am sorry - in the advertisement there was nothing about qualification recognised by the HSE.
    My wife's qualification is recognised by Quality and Qualification Ireland and she can work as self employed or in the private sector.

    The main reason we are upset is not the fact that my wife can not work for them based on their condition. It's the fact that a contract was offered without making clear what are the requirements regarding the recognition which eventually led to loosing the job, having left already her previous job...
    Arrgh...
    I got a phone for a solicitor from a friend who might be able to put this right for us...

    By the way, inthe manual training entry form, my wife had written she's pregnant. That means she did not hide the fact she's pregnant before she got the job...

    Have you got a copy of the advertised position?


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    #10
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,260 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    The thing is your wife can be let go at a whim for the first year no matter the reason (short of the big 9)...


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    #11
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    blindsider wrote: »
    This may be less about Employment Law and more about Contract Law. (I'm going to be careful not to stray into the realms of legal advice - which I am not qualified, or allowed, to offer.

    If the lady applied for a job, and was offered it, that's an Offer. If she accepted it, that's an Acceptance. Of course the offer was conditional, and the company laid out those conditions on the job advert, job spec and person spec - didn't they????

    If the job requires that a qualification be HSE-recognised, then the employer would state that at some stage during the selection process.

    If they didn't, and proceeded to make an offer which the lady relied on, then surely the employer is in some way liable - esp. when they then attempt to withdraw the offer.

    Me, I'd be marching down to see a solicitor - one who knows a contract inside out, and one who knows about Employment Law.

    I suspect the company would rather that the HSE didn't know about this.

    BTW - the lady is pregnant......most unfortunate situation given her condition - I hope she's not too stressed by all this.

    Finally, are there many quals not recognised in this way? Esp. UK ones....unless there are legal or regulatory reasons for it, I'm struggling to understand the difference between a Psychology degree from e.g. Nottingham University and e.g. NUIG?

    Jobs for professionals are advertised with qualification requirements, until OP varifies what exactly was advertised, it is impossible for any of us to say for certain if legal recourse is an option.

    PSI is a professional society set up by psychologists in the 1970's to further the advancement of pshychology as a profession in Ireland. It is not a statutory/regulatory body, so recognition of OPs wife's qualifications only entitles her to become a member of PSI, this is not to be confused with state recognition of a qualification.

    UK and indeed EU qualifications from State accredited third level institutions are for the most part recognised here but the bar does tend to be set a little higher for qualifications which allow for graduates to obtain positions where they are responsible for the treatment/care of the vulnerable. The qualification must be from an accredited institution which provides education and training to a standard recognised and accepted by each State.

    If the state recognises the qualification, the first question the OPs wife should ask is why does the HSE not? If her qualification is not accepted here, then if there is an issue with her work at a future date, this would be very damaging to the child/adult, OPs wife, her employer and the HSE. We have all seen and read articles in the news where problems occurred in state hospitals/homes etc and the sensational bit for the media is always whether the state employed the person responsible and whether they actually had the necessary qualifications.

    OP did your wife do her undergraduate and postgraduate training in the EU and was it done in an accredited third level institution (like our universities/institutes)? Or was it done outside the EU or in a private college which was not State recognised?


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    #12
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,692 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The problem might also be that the qualification she has (clinical psych) is not a good match for the specific job (social care worker). It's possible that if the job was as a clinical psych, there might be less of an issue.

    Also, I'm wondering if a move to this forum might be a good idea: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1274
    The folks there might be able to suggest some words that can be said or process that can be followed to deal with the problem.

    I guess it depends if you want advice focussed on employment or health science issues. If you do want the post moved, then use the report-post function and one of the mod will do it for you.


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    #13
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    Nody wrote: »
    The thing is your wife can be let go at a whim for the first year no matter the reason (short of the big 9)...

    Nody - this is overly-simplistic. A case could still be taken under the Industrial Relations Act (1990). It would be worth asking advice from a HR pro or a solr.

    OP - if you have the original advert, I'd be taking it further - you could go so far as to request a copy of the original advert under FOI.

    If the QQI have recognised the Masters as L9, then their assertion as per your quote is factually incorrect.

    Davo10 mentioned the PSI - it might be worth investigating their membership criteria.

    BOL!


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    blindsider wrote: »
    Finally, are there many quals not recognised in this way? Esp. UK ones....unless there are legal or regulatory reasons for it, I'm struggling to understand the difference between a Psychology degree from e.g. Nottingham University and e.g. NUIG?
    Two different degrees from NUIG might be treated differently as I understand it:
    A BA in Psychological Studies (and another Arts subject) is not the same as a Denominated BA in Psychology.


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    #15
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    ted1 wrote: »
    Have you got a copy of the advertised position?

    I have found it.
    I tried to remove all info re my wife and the former employer

    ezd9b47bj



    Here is a picture of her qualification recognition by QQI (former NFQI). We called QQI before sending the papers to the HR department to make sure the recognition is still valid and we were told it is not necessary to go through the process again as the former NFQI is the current QQI.

    iq061704j

    km6cb118j


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    #16
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    Just found out that to see the pictures you need to right click and open image on a new page...


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    #17
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    davo10 wrote: »
    Jobs for professionals are advertised with qualification requirements, until OP varifies what exactly was advertised, it is impossible for any of us to say for certain if legal recourse is an option.

    PSI is a professional society set up by psychologists in the 1970's to further the advancement of pshychology as a profession in Ireland. It is not a statutory/regulatory body, so recognition of OPs wife's qualifications only entitles her to become a member of PSI, this is not to be confused with state recognition of a qualification.

    UK and indeed EU qualifications from State accredited third level institutions are for the most part recognised here but the bar does tend to be set a little higher for qualifications which allow for graduates to obtain positions where they are responsible for the treatment/care of the vulnerable. The qualification must be from an accredited institution which provides education and training to a standard recognised and accepted by each State.

    If the state recognises the qualification, the first question the OPs wife should ask is why does the HSE not? If her qualification is not accepted here, then if there is an issue with her work at a future date, this would be very damaging to the child/adult, OPs wife, her employer and the HSE. We have all seen and read articles in the news where problems occurred in state hospitals/homes etc and the sensational bit for the media is always whether the state employed the person responsible and whether they actually had the necessary qualifications.

    OP did your wife do her undergraduate and postgraduate training in the EU and was it done in an accredited third level institution (like our universities/institutes)? Or was it done outside the EU or in a private college which was not State recognised?

    It's in EU. And in the above letter from QQI(NFQI) is clearly stated that it is recognised by the state.


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    #18
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    Nody wrote: »
    The thing is your wife can be let go at a whim for the first year no matter the reason (short of the big 9)...

    We clearly understand that and have no issue with it.
    The problem is my wife has been offered and accepted a job she was told she's not qualified for after she had signed the contract.


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    #19
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    peposhi wrote: »
    It's in EU. And in the above letter from QQI(NFQI) is clearly stated that it is recognised by the state.

    Which then goes back to my question in the above post, did you contact the HSE and ask them why, if the state recognises the qualification, why do they not?


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    #20
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    peposhi wrote: »
    We clearly understand that and have no issue with it.
    The problem is my wife has been offered and accepted a job she was told she's not qualified for after she had signed the contract.

    OP, do you know for certain that the HSE refused to recognise your wife's qualification, did her employer show her the correspondence?

    But at the end of all this, though it was a crap thing for them to do, you are unlikely to get anywhere with a complaint.


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    #21
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    davo10 wrote: »
    Which then goes back to my question in the above post, did you contact the HSE and ask them why, if the state recognises the qualification, why do they not?

    We last contacted HSE 4 years a go and we were told it had to be recognised by PSI before they recognise it. As for the reasons - I have to ask my wife if she has kept letters or evidence of our contacts with HSE to be able to tell you.
    We may ring HSE tomorrow and have another meeting set up to see what we can do.


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    #22
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    davo10 wrote: »
    OP, do you know for certain that the HSE refused to recognise your wife's qualification, did her employer show her the correspondence?

    But at the end of all this, though it was a crap thing for them to do, you are unlikely to get anywhere with a complaint.

    Here is the letter of termination. It says that my wife's qualification is not recognised in Ireland?!?

    Bear in mind my wife worked for the same organisation as a volunteer for 2 years. And there was a selection before she got the volunteer work as she was looking after a mentally disabled person.

    pc18adb1j

    We are not aware of or being shown any correspondence...


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    #23
    Meirleach
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Meirleach


    That is a horrible situation to be in, and you have my sympathies. But I'd like to reiterate what some other posters have mentioned, you really need to be talking to a solicitor.

    I hope it all works out for you.


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    #24
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    We have an appointment with a solicitor for Monday morning and will have more info after that...


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    #25
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    davo10 wrote: »
    OP, do you know for certain that the HSE refused to recognise your wife's qualification, did her employer show her the correspondence?

    But at the end of all this, though it was a crap thing for them to do, you are unlikely to get anywhere with a complaint.

    The validation unit in HSE has informed us to contact PSI regarding about the recognition.
    No, no correspondence has been shown to us.
    In fairness the correspondence between the employer and HSE surely had to happen BEFORE they employ a foreign national, even though its an EU citizen. If the recognition was so important, why it has not been mentioned at any stage? Why bother giving someone a contract she's not "qualified"? The more I think about it, the more I feel it's got to do something with my wife being pregnant...


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    #26
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    davo10 wrote: »
    Which then goes back to my question in the above post, did you contact the HSE and ask them why, if the state recognises the qualification, why do they not?

    Because HSE says it's not for them to recognise a degree in Psychology...


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    #27
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    And here is another one for you:
    Because for the state my wife is highly qualified(not qualified enough for the employer though), when the means test was done for her social welfare payment calculation €124 was added on top of the €188 so she ended up with €16.80 a week.
    I have no comment.
    And when she wanted to do a course that might help her to get other type of job in social care, she was told she has to pay for the course as she's higher level of education than the level of the course she wanted to apply for and this course is provided for free for non-qualified applicants...
    Ridiculous!


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    #28
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    I cannot comment on PSI, but I do know that just because QQI recognise your qualification at a certain level on the framework, it does not mean you can practice as if you had a dedicated or recognised qualification here or abroad. Your wife would have needed to check with the regulatory body here, not just QQI.


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    #29
    peposhi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    We do understand and have no issue with that.
    The problem is my wife was given a contract without meeting (and being aware of) the requirements (HSE recognition apperantly) for the job and as a result she left her previous job and lost her new job and was left with no regular income which would not have happened.


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    #30
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    What does the person spec or advert say regarding qualifications? I cannot see the attachment.


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    #31
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,692 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    MouseTail wrote: »
    I cannot comment on PSI, but I do know that just because QQI recognise your qualification at a certain level on the framework, it does not mean you can practice as if you had a dedicated or recognised qualification here or abroad. Your wife would have needed to check with the regulatory body here, not just QQI.

    But she's not trying to practise as a psychologist here- - the job is for a social care worker! The type of job which until fairly recently required no qualification at all, according to what people tell me.


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