How the teaching unions and the DES will conspire to force teachers into the JCSA.

Peter Flynt · 18-09-2014 10:54pm #1

We've seen it all before - The teaching unions are in fierce opposition to something.

But it's all for show you see. In the past the unions (ASTI & TUI) have delivered nothing but pay cuts and worse terms and conditions of employment for their members to the effect that they have previously signed up with the DES to conspire to denigrate the job of teaching.

So why the opposition to the JCSA? - As it provides an outlet for the unions to make it appear as if they have their members interests at heart. It's also an easier option as it doesn't involve fighting against pay cuts and they feel they can win the support of parents.

So how and when will the unions fall into line and force their members, yet again, into ignoring the results of their own ballots.

Well one need to look no further than what the teaching unions did on Haddington Road and Croke Park.

The procedure is this:

1 - Denounce proposed cuts (or in this case marking your own students in the JCSA) with a series of emails to union members and publications to the media and on the union website.

2 - Organise a ballot on a directive (including a possible strike - which won't occur) on non cooperation with the demands of the DES.

3 - The ballot is passed. The union leaders then go in for more "talks" with a "mandate". The talks have to be seen to be serious . . . que some bluff midnight walkout if necessary.

4 - The union, after months of "negotiating" (if that is the proper term), come out of talks with basically the original demands of the DES intact with some minor slight amendment. For the JCSA this could involve a delay for a year or some form of external supervision of the JCSA from the DES yet with teachers still marking their own students.

5 - The union will then state that "this is the best offer we could get". Sound familiar?

6 - The DES/Government will then issue Croke Park 3 - with, yes you've guessed it, a demand for teachers to mark their own students. A small reduction in the pension levy could be used as the carrot to give to the unions to force their members into the JCSA.

7 - This time the union will recommend a YES vote to Croke Park 3 whilst it will be conveniently forgotten that the terms and conditions of employment of second level teachers in particular are being made much worse.

8 - Regardless of the ballot results on Croke Park 3 the ballots will be run until a YES vote is secured.

Result: Teachers are doing the JCSA

endakenny · 18-09-2014 11:10pm

Pat King said that the JCSA would mean that teachers would no longer be advocates for their students; that they would be judge and jury over their students. Obviously, you have no faith in him. Having said that, I don't believe that his statement on the JCSA reflects the reality in schools.

Teachers already judge their students by reprimanding students and giving them punishment exercises for breaches of discipline. In other words, the relationship between teacher and student in primary and secondary schools is, in many cases, more like a court case in which the lawyer on one side discredits the witness on the other side. Therefore, in many cases, the relationship between teacher and student is adversarial.

Furthermore, the fact that there is still a terminal exam in JCSA English means that students will still be prepared for LC English. I'm aware that there already is project work in some Senior Cycle subjects and there is already critical thinking in written exams in many subjects, i.e. Compare, contrast, discuss.

If a student's answers to exam questions are riddled with errors, i.e. grammar, getting historical names and dates wrong, and the answers are photocopied, then the student and his or her parents will recognise that the answers have been marked fairly.

km79 · 18-09-2014 11:16pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

We've seen it all before - The teaching unions are in fierce opposition to something.

But it's all for show you see. In the past the unions (ASTI & TUI) have delivered nothing but pay cuts and worse terms and conditions of employment for their members to the effect that they have previously signed up with the DES to conspire to denigrate the job of teaching.

So why the opposition to the JCSA? - As it provides an outlet for the unions to make it appear as if they have their members interests at heart. It's also an easier option as it doesn't involve fighting against pay cuts and they feel they can win the support of parents.

So how and when will the unions fall into line and force their members, yet again, into ignoring the results of their own ballots.

Well one need to look no further than what the teaching unions did on Haddington Road and Croke Park.

The procedure is this:

1 - Denounce proposed cuts (or in this case marking your own students in the JCSA) with a series of emails to union members and publications to the media and on the union website.

2 - Organise a ballot on a directive (including a possible strike - which won't occur) on non cooperation with the demands of the DES.

3 - The ballot is passed. The union leaders then go in for more "talks" with a "mandate". The talks have to be seen to be serious . . . que some bluff midnight walkout if necessary.

4 - The union, after months of "negotiating" (if that is the proper term), come out of talks with basically the original demands of the DES intact with some minor slight amendment. For the JCSA this could involve a delay for a year or some form of external supervision of the JCSA from the DES yet with teachers still marking their own students.

5 - The union will then state that "this is the best offer we could get". Sound familiar?

6 - The DES/Government will then issue Croke Park 3 - with, yes you've guessed it, a demand for teachers to mark their own students. A small reduction in the pension levy could be used as the carrot to give to the unions to force their members into the JCSA.

7 - This time the union will recommend a YES vote to Croke Park 3 whilst it will be conveniently forgotten that the terms and conditions of employment of second level teachers in particular are being made much worse.

8 - Regardless of the ballot results on Croke Park 3 the ballots will be run until a YES vote is secured.

Result: Teachers are doing the JCSA

you won't be far wrong ...

Icsics · 19-09-2014 11:52am

Apparently JMB are putting a proposal to minister that teachers mark 40% of students work & terminal exam marked externally 60%. JMB are as 'anti teacher' as ASTI

Pwpane · 19-09-2014 1:00pm

We wouldn't be in the dreadful position we're in if the JMB weren't anti-teacher.

Behind the scenes, they have done an awful damage to the teaching profession and to student education.

aratsarse101 · 19-09-2014 1:48pm

I would think that the OP is almost entirely correct.
I think though that there probably will be one token day of strike. Just to expose us to a bit of ridicule.
And I think that Recent Graduates and those close to retirement will be used to carry Croke Park 3 over the line.
But the JCSA will definitely be brought in by the unions. In fact, I imagine they'll negotiate an extra bit of internal moderation just to increase the workload.

acequion · 19-09-2014 3:11pm

The negativity on this thread is in no way helpful to anybody. The JCSA has NOT come in yet. I teach English,have a first year English group this year and it's business as usual with the same course. Nothing is in until the teachers are actually teaching it in spite of what may be spun to the media. And if the teachers stick to their guns and refuse to implement it then it cannot go ahead.End of story. All this talk of Croke Park 3 is quite frankly sensationalist at this point and teachers have enough stress and worries without bidding the devil good morrow!

I have no time whatsoever for Pat King, the JMB or indeed the DES and I'd go so far as to say I despise them for what they've done and are doing to education. But I stayed in the union so that I can fight and at least get some say in the future. Those who left basically threw down their weapons and negative predictions which may or may not come to pass,are no substitute for constructive resistance.

2011abc · 19-09-2014 3:13pm

You got it perfect apart from

9 :'Key' union head office staff are awarded lucrative Quango / Expert Group etc seats .

Jamfa · 19-09-2014 3:34pm

The new Junior Cycle English course has come in for first years and the unions have instructed that teachers should teach it or they are in breach of their contract. The assessment of students school-based work in 2nd & 3rd year is the area where the issues remain.

acequion · 19-09-2014 4:22pm

Jamfa wrote: »

The new Junior Cycle English course has come in for first years and the unions have instructed that teachers should teach it or they are in breach of their contract. The assessment of students school-based work in 2nd & 3rd year is the area where the issues remain.

Kindly provide the link to where the unions have "instructed" members to teach it.Because I have heard nothing about such an instruction since we voted not to cooperate last May and are now voting to widen our non cooperation to include strike action.

And,if by some chance I have missed something and you are right and I am in breach of contract,then so be it! There are several first year English teachers in my school also in breach of contract and no doubt many in the country at large.

Personally I am prepared to do everything in my power to resist being bullied into teaching something which is so fundamentally flawed and ill thought out.

Chilli Con Kearney · 19-09-2014 5:06pm

@acequeen
But you ARE teaching the new course. It's just that they gave so little direction at the one-day workshops that it is still the same as the old course. It is still the NEW course however. And that is how it has been and may continue to be slid in.

I have not seen the unions telling us to teach it either. So I am not sure about contractual issues. Anyway, the issue is not the curriculum change, it is the marking. We should never lose sight of this.

@endakenny
Student-teacher relationships are not adversarial. We work with and for our students. That is why we go in to work - to help them.

Jamfa · 19-09-2014 5:24pm

The Union directives are to not cooperate with training and planning meetings but there is no directive to not teach the new curriculum. Www.juniorcycle.ie has a section for English teachers & there are new textbooks available. In every article about the Junior Cycle recently it has mentioned that English teachers are to teach the new course. I'd check with your union & be careful about saying you are not teaching the new course as that would be a breach of contract.

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

@acequeen
But you ARE teaching the new course. It's just that they gave so little direction at the one-day workshops that it is still the same as the old course. It is still the NEW course however. And that is how it has been and may continue to be slid in.

I have not seen the unions telling us to teach it either. So I am not sure about contractual issues. Anyway, the issue is not the curriculum change, it is the marking. We should never lose sight of this.

@endakenny
Student-teacher relationships are not adversarial. We work with and for our students. That is why we go in to work - to help them.

Jamfa · 19-09-2014 5:46pm

This is from the ASTI website: 'The Framework for Junior Cycle English syllabus will be implemented for first year students in September 2014. The ASTI Directive does not prohibit teachers from teaching the syllabus/ specifications prescribed by the Department for first year English students from September 2014.'

acequion · 19-09-2014 7:13pm

Jamfa wrote: »

The Union directives are to not cooperate with training and planning meetings but there is no directive to not teach the new curriculum. Www.juniorcycle.ie has a section for English teachers & there are new textbooks available. In every article about the Junior Cycle recently it has mentioned that English teachers are to teach the new course. I'd check with your union & be careful about saying you are not teaching the new course as that would be a breach of contract.

Jamfa I'm sure you mean well,but you seem to misunderstand my stance.I honestly couldn't give a flying fcuk about being in breach of contract and the last thing I'll do is be a good little girl and go running to my union,who I don't trust, to have them tell me what to do. This being careful and looking over our shoulder fearful of this,that and the other is precisely what has herded teachers down a dark road,the road of CP, HR and now,perhaps JCSA Like I said earlier, I am prepared to go as far as it takes in my resistance. I am simply horrified that Jan O Sullivan is basically following in Ruari Quinn's footsteps and trying to force this in despite the well documented and perfectly reasonable concerns of the teachers and also the parents.

acequion · 19-09-2014 7:18pm

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

@acequeen
But you ARE teaching the new course. It's just that they gave so little direction at the one-day workshops that it is still the same as the old course. It is still the NEW course however. And that is how it has been and may continue to be slid in.

I have not seen the unions telling us to teach it either. So I am not sure about contractual issues. Anyway, the issue is not the curriculum change, it is the marking. We should never lose sight of this.

@endakenny
Student-teacher relationships are not adversarial. We work with and for our students. That is why we go in to work - to help them.

Everything is a matter of interpretation and as far as I am concerned no I am NOT teaching a new course. I am teaching exactly what I taught last year and using the exact same book along with the other English teachers in the school. We made that decision after the ballot result in May. It's so typical of the ASTI under Pat King not to rock the boat. And I agree with a lot of what the OP and others say about the unions, but I'd prefer to be in and try to influence,in however small a way, than out.

endakenny · 19-09-2014 9:51pm

acequion wrote: »

Jamfa I'm sure you mean well,but you seem to misunderstand my stance.I honestly couldn't give a flying fcuk about being in breach of contract and the last thing I'll do is be a good little girl and go running to my union,who I don't trust, to have them tell me what to do. This being careful and looking over our shoulder fearful of this,that and the other is precisely what has herded teachers down a dark road,the road of CP, HR and now,perhaps JCSA Like I said earlier, I am prepared to go as far as it takes in my resistance. I am simply horrified that Jan O Sullivan is basically following in Ruari Quinn's footsteps and trying to force this in despite the well documented and perfectly reasonable concerns of the teachers and also the parents.

Jan O'Sullivan is more diplomatic than Ruairí Quinn was and she hasn't made threats.

evolving_doors · 19-09-2014 10:20pm

We had this issue about the new English texts in our school, our union rep said the texts were couched in terms of teacher assessment/student outcomes etc. so as such, went against the spirit of non-cooperation with JCSA....
books went 'on ice' ...back to old course...everyone happy.

In saying that I havn't actually read any of these textbooks myself ... but rep said it was what union office advised him.

Only way is teacher solidarity... but the question remains... will teachers relent if theres sweeties on the table ...we know its going to be vote after vote so will we hold 'solely' to the principal of anonymous assessment? I'm thinking that it's a little bit different to CP/HR in that it hinges on one issue (mainly) where's the CP/HR battle included the kitchen sink in concessions and punishments to different groups of teachers (like phone company charges- it was a confusopoly).

I can't see the Unions 'buying off' teacher assessment with other stuff.. maybe we'll be sold 'a little bit of teacher assessment' as a trial ..(say 10%).

Game on though.

acequion · 19-09-2014 11:04pm

Armelodie wrote: »

We had this issue about the new English texts in our school, our union rep said the texts were couched in terms of teacher assessment/student outcomes etc. so as such, went against the spirit of non-cooperation with JCSA....
books went 'on ice' ...back to old course...everyone happy.

In saying that I havn't actually read any of these textbooks myself ... but rep said it was what union office advised him.

Only way is teacher solidarity... but the question remains... will teachers relent if theres sweeties on the table ...we know its going to be vote after vote so will we hold 'solely' to the principal of anonymous assessment? I'm thinking that it's a little bit different to CP/HR in that it hinges on one issue (mainly) where's the CP/HR battle included the kitchen sink in concessions and punishments to different groups of teachers (like phone company charges- it was a confusopoly).

I can't see the Unions 'buying off' teacher assessment with other stuff.. maybe we'll be sold 'a little bit of teacher assessment' as a trial ..(say 10%).

Game on though.

Agree Armelodie. What makes me a bit more hopeful is the non fragmentation of this issue. While English may now be in the firing line,all other subjects are due to follow suit, so this affects everybody equally except those retiring in the relatively near future. And I am hoping that the majority will put shoulder to the wheel to keep out teacher assessment of our own pupils.The rest is negotiable and we have always been open to dialogue and compromise.

endakenny · 20-09-2014 12:08pm

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/school-bodies-back-longer-time-frame-for-junior-cycle-reform-287511.html

But ASTI president, Philip Irwin, yesterday urged members to vote in their ballot for power to escalate industrial action, saying it would give the minister a clear message on their concerns about abolishing the state exam at the end of the junior cycle. “Without an independent state exam, like we have with the Junior Certificate, it is highly likely that an A in one school will differ from an A in another school,” he said.

Employers are generally interested in job applicants' Leaving Cert, further education and third-level results and not in Junior Cert results. Therefore, the issue of whether an A in a JCSA subject in one school carries more or less weight than one in another school doesn't arise.

Furthermore, the number of students leaving school after the Junior Cert is much smaller than it used to be.

evolving_doors · 20-09-2014 1:44pm

endakenny wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/school-bodies-back-longer-time-frame-for-junior-cycle-reform-287511.html

Employers are generally interested in job applicants' Leaving Cert, further education and third-level results and not in Junior Cert results. Therefore, the issue of whether an A in a JCSA subject in one school carries more or less weight than one in another school doesn't arise.

Furthermore, the number of students leaving school after the Junior Cert is much smaller than it used to be.

It's not about the almighty employers/economy/jobs enda its much deeper and more important than that... It's about education

endakenny · 20-09-2014 6:00pm

Armelodie wrote: »

It's not about the almighty employers/economy/jobs enda its much deeper and more important than that... It's about education

The purpose of being educated is to do well in life. Therefore, the issue of qualifications is relevant to this debate.

spurious · 20-09-2014 7:13pm

Of course the Leaving will follow suit - the dogs in the street know that.

endakenny · 20-09-2014 8:13pm

If a pupil or his or her parents has doubts about how the pupil's JCSA exam is marked, then photocopying of the pupil's answers to the exam questions will disprove those doubts.

acequion · 20-09-2014 9:01pm

endakenny wrote: »

The purpose of being educated is to do well in life. Therefore, the issue of qualifications is relevant to this debate.

No enda,the purpose of education is much deeper and wider than to "do well in life" on a superficial and / or economic basis.

acequion · 20-09-2014 9:06pm

endakenny wrote: »

If a pupil or his or her parents has doubts about how the pupil's JCSA exam is marked, then photocopying of the pupil's answers to the exam questions will disprove those doubts.

And where does that leave the teacher as marker of that exam if the parents disagree with the way it is marked?

Currently,markers at both JC and LC level are protected by anonymity,as are the candidates [students],which in no way precludes appeal by the candidate,where the paper is re assessed by a different marker,yet still anonymous.

The dogs in the street can see what the subject teacher will now be exposed to! Do you really think that is fair?

endakenny · 20-09-2014 9:29pm

acequion wrote: »

And where does that leave the teacher as marker of that exam if the parent's disagree with the way it is marked?

Currently,markers at both JC and LC level are protected by anonymity,as are the candidates [students],which in no way precludes appeal by the candidate,where the paper is re assessed by a different marker,yet still anonymous.

The dogs in the street can see what the subject teacher will now be exposed to! Do you really think that is fair?

If the answers are riddled with mistakes, i.e. errors in grammar and spelling, getting historical names and dates wrong, then it'll be obvious why the result is poor. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to dispute that.

endakenny · 20-09-2014 9:30pm

acequion wrote: »

No enda,the purpose of education is much deeper and wider than to "do well in life" on a superficial and / or economic basis.

What's wrong with making it easier for pupils?

2011abc · 20-09-2014 10:27pm

endakenny wrote: »

The purpose of being educated is to do well in life.

Jeez ,even the REAL Enda Kenny wouldnt say that !I suppose its important not to marry below ones socio economic status also ?

2011abc · 20-09-2014 10:28pm

endakenny wrote: »

If the answers are riddled with mistakes, i.e. errors in grammar and spelling

That will be the teachers fault TOO!'Loose , loose' scenario !

man_no_plan · 20-09-2014 10:53pm

2011abc wrote: »

That will be the teachers fault TOO!'Loose , loose' scenario !

IF there was the same projetc and same marking scheme nationallythere might be obvious errors or whatever.

the fact is that every kid will do a different project a different course and have a different assessment criteria applied to their work because the DES dont give a ****, they just want to save money.

crunch the numbers, get the grades to look right, everything is rosy.

nobody is watching. This is why you might call deregulation of exams, make it up as you go along. I dont think deregulation has worked wellin any area in the past. I can't see why this would be different.

endakenny · 20-09-2014 11:25pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

the fact is that every kid will do a different project a different course and have a different assessment criteria applied to their work because the DES dont give a ****, they just want to save money.

Jan O'Sullivan has denied that.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/o-sullivan-rejects-criticism-of-reforms-1.1924569

“It isn’t going to save any money that I know of,” Ms O’Sullivan said. “I’ve never been told that it’s going to save money.”
Speaking to The Irish Times as this year’s Junior Cert results were released, she said: “The curriculum reform is something that has been in embryo for a long, long time and I’m committed to it.

km79 · 20-09-2014 11:29pm

endakenny wrote: »

Jan O'Sullivan has denied that.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/o-sullivan-rejects-criticism-of-reforms-1.1924569

oh well if the Minister for Education says so it must be true sure ministers always the truth. They never have any other agendas. Honestly.......

endakenny · 20-09-2014 11:44pm

Have secondary teachers on this thread asked themselves the following question?: Is it fair to expect 15- and 16-year old pupils to sit 14 or 15 exams in a fortnight? The Junior Cycle exam system would be in a much better state than it is at present if the unions hadn't scuppered Gemma Hussey's attempt to reform it when she was Minister for Education.

mirrorwall14 · 20-09-2014 11:49pm

Endakenny it is clear you are completely in support of the proposed changes. Others are not.

In response to you I can say that the majority of my students find continuous assessment far more taxing than the exam weeks themselves. Projects, practical etc are very stressful for them too. There is no one correct answer here

Jamfa · 21-09-2014 2:18am

As a parent of a son in first year I am far more concerned about what my son is being taught every week than an exam in 3 years. The quality of teaching & learning is more important & I don't want my sons teachers to be his advocates or judges just professional educators. I am frustrated when he is coming home from school with homework which his teachers have poorly prepared him for. His English teacher gives the class lots of written exercises but doesn't model or teach them the skills necessary to complete them & hasn't taken up any homework yet. I feel teachers must focus on assessment for learning & not 2 sets of state exams.

evolving_doors · 21-09-2014 7:18am

endakenny wrote: »

The purpose of being educated is to do well in life. Therefore, the issue of qualifications is relevant to this debate.

As you said yourself ...the issue of qualifications does not arise

seavill · 21-09-2014 10:52am

endakenny wrote: »

Have secondary teachers on this thread asked themselves the following question?: Is it fair to expect 15- and 16-year old pupils to sit 14 or 15 exams in a fortnight? The Junior Cycle exam system would be in a much better state than it is at present if the unions hadn't scuppered Gemma Hussey's attempt to reform it when she was Minister for Education.

It would be a maximum of 11 exams I believe unless someone decided to take subjects outside if school. 11 is a lot in fairness but it does prepare them for what the leaving cert will be like.

Ireland's education system is a mess. People give out about teaching to the test but in reality that is what our education system is about in the leaving cert. if I am getting terrible lc results because I don't to a certain extent teach to the test I will be called a bad teacher no matter how rounded an education I give them. In my opinion they need to change the lc first before the jc because the jc prepares in more ways than one for the lc.

People have said here and many other places that we are not against the jcsa. We are against how it us being rushed and forced in without the proper systems in place to support it. It's current version doesn't reflect the actual proposals that the experts the ncca put to the minister at the time.

In relation to exams v continuous assessment. I teach woodwork so have 60% of my subject already on project work. Project work does not help the weaker students. They struggle with independent work and meeting deadlines including handing up portfolios. Now multiply one project for woodwork by maybe 9 more subjects I feel they won't cope, again without the proper structure and support in place.

We had someone from jcsa in for a talk with us last year before the union issues. The 2 hour talk could be summed up in the idea that for the jcsa you start with the final outcomes (exams and continuous assessment) then work back to your objectives of how you are going to achieve this. Which is a fine idea
Until you take this years first years with English. There is still no plan (apart from the 60%) for how exactly things are going to be assessed. What things will the students have to be able to do by end of 3rd year we have no idea. So the basis for the structure if the entire jcsa that I just set out already falls flat on its face in the first month. And before anyone says that's the unions fault there's no plan due to our action they are wrong. This is why we have the action because of the lack if plan and supports.

Jamfa · 21-09-2014 11:13am

What do you mean there is no plan for the assessment of junior cycle English? The specification for the school-based tasks was published in April & all the details are on the juniorcycle.ie website. Inservice & in-school supports for teachers are available but currently blocked by the union directive.

seavill · 21-09-2014 11:24am

That's what I meant apologies posting from my phone not the easiest.

They are available now they were not available until the end of last year with originally one in service planned for this year until an issue was made and they increased it to two.

When the new DCG course came in there was at least 8 in services before the course was implemented and another 6 or so after just for one subject. Now we change the entire jc and English gets 2 after they have already started to implement it. One last year that if you search back threads here had no answers just more questions from those who took part. That's what I meant about things not being in place. That one in service with very little detail plus publish a document then work away that's hardly proper planning

2011abc · 21-09-2014 11:35am

The Project Maths 'rollout' was far from impressive in many respects but at least there seemed to be some kind of thought gone into it -along with millions of Euro , this yoke seems to be destined to fail spectacularly even WITH teachers on board .In the wake of Phil Hogan being PROVED to be a blatant liar (said he wasnt 'micromanaging' Irish Water when he personally signed off on 'Consultancy' millions)"Jan" says theyre not even saving money on it .CLEARLY thats the intention -along with looking as if theyre 'adopting best international practice'-change for change sake without the slightest thought to anything except maybe how much their external private sector /ex union head office buddies are going to make .One of the 'expert speakers' at the recent 'talking shop' who spoke in favour of scrapping the JC runs an assesment company .You dont need to be that bright to join these dots...

2011abc · 21-09-2014 11:38am

seavill wrote: »

Ireland's education system is a mess..

Disagree completely .There is still plenty of what made us one of the best systems in the world alive and kicking despite continuous onslaught from politicians and 'experts' .But is HAS been turned into more of a mess in last five years.

Third or fourth out of thirty four OECD countries at Reading despite comedy funding and an utter revolution in the cohort of students in front of us in last ten years Id say makes us far from a mess .

endakenny · 21-09-2014 11:41am

Armelodie wrote: »

As you said yourself ...the issue of qualifications does not arise

I didn't convey my point correctly. I meant that the status of a JCSA qualification would be irrelevant because employers would be interested only in LC and FE and third-level qualifications and not interested in the JC qualification.

endakenny · 21-09-2014 11:44am

seavill wrote: »

It would be a maximum of 11 exams I believe unless someone decided to take subjects outside if school. 11 is a lot in fairness but it does prepare them for what the leaving cert will be like.

Ireland's education system is a mess. People give out about teaching to the test but in reality that is what our education system is about in the leaving cert. if I am getting terrible lc results because I don't to a certain extent teach to the test I will be called a bad teacher no matter how rounded an education I give them. In my opinion they need to change the lc first before the jc because the jc prepares in more ways than one for the lc.

People have said here and many other places that we are not against the jcsa. We are against how it us being rushed and forced in without the proper systems in place to support it. It's current version doesn't reflect the actual proposals that the experts the ncca put to the minister at the time.

In relation to exams v continuous assessment. I teach woodwork so have 60% of my subject already on project work. Project work does not help the weaker students. They struggle with independent work and meeting deadlines including handing up portfolios. Now multiply one project for woodwork by maybe 9 more subjects I feel they won't cope, again without the proper structure and support in place.

We had someone from jcsa in for a talk with us last year before the union issues. The 2 hour talk could be summed up in the idea that for the jcsa you start with the final outcomes (exams and continuous assessment) then work back to your objectives of how you are going to achieve this. Which is a fine idea
Until you take this years first years with English. There is still no plan (apart from the 60%) for how exactly things are going to be assessed. What things will the students have to be able to do by end of 3rd year we have no idea. So the basis for the structure if the entire jcsa that I just set out already falls flat on its face in the first month. And before anyone says that's the unions fault there's no plan due to our action they are wrong. This is why we have the action because of the lack if plan and supports.

Changes are being made to the LC.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/students-to-get-points-for-fail-grade-in-leaving-cert-revamp-30497985.html

It might have been argued that the abolition of the Primary Cert would leave pupils unprepared for second level. But it didn't. The same logic can be applied with regard to the JCSA and the LC. Ruairí Quinn said that he believed that the critical thinking associated with the JCSA would work its way through to the LC.

seavill · 21-09-2014 11:47am

2011abc wrote: »

Disagree completely .There is still plenty of what made us one of the best systems in the world alive and kicking despite continuous onslaught from politicians and 'experts' .But is HAS been turned into a mess in last five years.

Third out of thirty four OECD countries at Reading despite comedy funding and an utter revolution in the cohort of students in front of us in last ten years Id say makes us far from a mess .

So you disagree completely that it IS a mess, yet you say for the last 5 years it has been turned into a mess so it IS a mess, I completely miss how you disagree completely and then agree.

I clearly wasn't referring to the standard of our education system we are talking about the LC teaching to the test, the colleges don't want this so keep trying to change things, bonus points etc. We have a new JCSA which isn't planned and is causing massive problems, we have teachers who are fighting with the minister about it yet ploughing ahead regardless. We had a minster who completely disregarded the recommendations from teh NCCA on how the JCSA should look and goes off and does his own thing with no supporting evidence its just what he decided to do. I think that along with our other long list of problems, resources cuts, guidance counselor cuts, SNA cuts, extra hours for PR purposes with no educational benefit etc. etc. etc.
Oh yea we are in a fine state currently.

km79 · 21-09-2014 11:48am

endakenny wrote: »

Changes are being made to the LC.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/students-to-get-points-for-fail-grade-in-leaving-cert-revamp-30497985.html

changes are being made to the names of grades and points awarded NOT to the courses or more importantly the mode of assessment which stays the same while the JC changes completely.
But I'm positive you already knew this.......

2011abc · 21-09-2014 11:48am

Yes Enda , giving points for fail grades is a 'major revamp' !

seavill · 21-09-2014 11:49am

endakenny wrote: »

Changes are being made to the LC.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/students-to-get-points-for-fail-grade-in-leaving-cert-revamp-30497985.html

It might have been argued that the abolition of the Primary Cert would leave pupils unprepared for second level. But it didn't. The same logic can be applied with regard to the JCSA and the LC. Ruairí Quinn said that he believed that the critical thinking associated with the JCSA would work its way through to the LC.

Changing how points are allocated is not changing the system like the JCSA is. The JCSA is a complete overhaul of how teachers teach and how kids learn. Changing points around to make fails worth marks, or reducing the number of grades or giving bonus marks is hardly changing the system as we are referring to the changes in the JCSA, your article is irrelevant the context of the point I was making

endakenny · 21-09-2014 11:51am

seavill wrote: »

Changing how points are allocated is not changing the system like the JCSA is. The JCSA is a complete overhaul of how teachers teach and how kids learn. Changing points around to make fails worth marks, or reducing the number of grades or giving bonus marks is hardly changing the system as we are referring to the changes in the JCSA, your article is irrelevant the context of the point I was making

There is still a terminal exam that constitutes 60% of JCSA English, thus still leaving students prepared for LC English.

seavill · 21-09-2014 11:52am

endakenny wrote: »

There is still a terminal exam that constitutes 60% of JCSA English, thus still leaving students prepared for LC English.

Again go back to what I actually said, my point was that sitting 11 exams in 2 weeks does prepare kids for what the leaving cert is like sitting a similar number of exams in the space of 2 weeks

Jamfa · 21-09-2014 11:55am

seavill wrote: »

So you disagree completely that it IS a mess, yet you say for the last 5 years it has been turned into a mess so it IS a mess, I completely miss how you disagree completely and then agree.

I clearly wasn't referring to the standard of our education system we are talking about the LC teaching to the test, the colleges don't want this so keep trying to change things, bonus points etc. We have a new JCSA which isn't planned and is causing massive problems, we have teachers who are fighting with the minister about it yet ploughing ahead regardless. We had a minster who completely disregarded the recommendations from teh NCCA on how the JCSA should look and goes off and does his own thing with no supporting evidence its just what he decided to do. I think that along with our other long list of problems, resources cuts, guidance counselor cuts, SNA cuts, extra hours for PR purposes with no educational benefit etc. etc. etc.
Oh yea we are in a fine state currently.

The unions didn't support the NCCA proposals in 2011 either.

km79 · 21-09-2014 11:56am

endakenny wrote: »

There is still a terminal exam that constitutes 60% of JCSA English, thus still leaving students prepared for LC English.

and what change has been made to the LC English .......this was the point the poster was responding too! The one you made about these changes to the LC!
Never mind actually. I won't be replying or posting on this thread again.
It has been completely derailed......like others before it

How the teaching unions and the DES will conspire to force teachers into the JCSA.

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