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Expendables 3 leaked three weeks before release. What can be done to counter this?

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    #92
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,179 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    The free version of spotify just got pretty great in the last while too, they've lifted pretty much all the restrictions on it bar a few minor ones. I've been listening to it on the web browser for about 8 hours straight now and haven't heard a single ad.


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    #93
    Jimbloggs
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Jimbloggs


    I would be shocked and stunned if there isn't a movie equivalent of Spotify within the next ten years.
    Apart from cashing in on new movies, the movie companies could also stream their back catalogues. They could have a captive audience eating out of their hands.

    Ten Euro sounds pretty reasonable to me for a same day release that I get to keep.
    Five Euro would be fair for a weekend.

    The only certainty in this whole debate is that things will not go back to the way they were.


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    #94
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Jimbloggs wrote: »
    I would be shocked and stunned if there isn't a movie equivalent of Spotify within the next ten years.
    Apart from cashing in on new movies, the movie companies could also stream their back catalogues. They could have a captive audience eating out of their hands.

    Ten Euro sounds pretty reasonable to me for a same day release that I get to keep.
    Five Euro would be fair for a weekend.

    The only certainty in this whole debate is that things will not go back to the way they were.

    If netflix allowed you spotify style downloads to your device but still just played through the app it'd be great, be so handy to just stick stuff on a phone or table and watch it in places without wifi or not eating into your phone data.


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    #95
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    krudler wrote: »
    If netflix allowed you spotify style downloads to your device but still just played through the app it'd be great, be so handy to just stick stuff on a phone or table and watch it in places without wifi or not eating into your phone data.

    Being unable to play stuff offline is the only caveat with Netflix and the like. My parents just got a broadband connection but a few years ago, I had no way of watching films on the bus short of bringing the laptop and a few DVDs home which was a bit awkward.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #96
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The great thing about music is that there's little need for anyone to pirate it. When you look at something such as Spotify and what it offers you can't but love it. I've been paying for Spotify for the last few years and find myself using little else to listen to music on the go, I don't think I've used itunes on my ipod in years.

    There was an idea floated about a few years back in the UK that seemed like the ideal solution to piracy. The idea was that ISP would charge customers an additional £100-150 a year and that would then be divided amongst copy right holders and users would be able to download what they want free from fear of prosecution.

    How do you mange to distribute that money fairly between all the copyright holders in the world? Or do you just throw it at a few big record labels to shut them up a bit?


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    #97
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    pickarooney wrote: »
    How do you mange to distribute that money fairly between all the copyright holders in the world? Or do you just throw it at a few big record labels to shut them up a bit?

    How does it work with music?


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pickarooney wrote: »
    How do you mange to distribute that money fairly between all the copyright holders in the world? Or do you just throw it at a few big record labels to shut them up a bit?

    I'd imagine out would work in much the same way as Spotify distributes it. It's not a perfect solution but it seems to be one that could work and make everyone happy.


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    #99
    Jumboman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭Jumboman


    Copyright is an obsolete concept in the 21st century.


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    #100
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Jumboman wrote: »
    Copyright is an obsolete concept in the 21st century.

    How so?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #101
    Dman001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,534 ✭✭✭Dman001


    I was thinking the other day, how funny it is that we must go to the cinema to see the latest movies, and is something that hasn't really moved with the times. We've all the latest technology common in our households to stream/download the latest films, in a variety of mediums (3D, 4K) and quality. Hell, even the studios could deliver them directly to the consumer if they wanted to, and cut out the middle man that is the cinema. Charge €8-€10 for the latest release, with 24 Hour access of the film on multiple devices.

    Sure, piracy will be a bigger concern through this method. But CAM version of films, along with DVD rips (such as The Expendables 3 example) are common as it is.

    As much as I enjoy the cinema experience, we shouldn't be limited to the cinema to enjoy the latest movies.


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    #102
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The Cinema's an experience though, it's like the difference between a bath and the local swimming pool. Sure, if you've the cash for surround sound, a massive TV and so on then good for you but for a lot of people this is the best way. In addition, it adds an extra point of sale to the product so it is in the studio's interest to start with box office sales before moving to DVDs, TV and streaming services.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #103
    Dman001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,534 ✭✭✭Dman001


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The Cinema's an experience though, it's like the difference between a bath and the local swimming pool. Sure, if you've the cash for surround sound, a massive TV and so on then good for you but for a lot of people this is the best way. In addition, it adds an extra point of sale to the product so it is in the studio's interest to start with box office sales before moving to DVDs, TV and streaming services.
    I'm not saying get rid of the cinema, but have an additional source to legally watch new films. There will always be a market for the cinema experience, i reckon. Although, to introduce such a service that I propose, I'm sure the cinemas would attempt to boycott it.


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    #104
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dman001 wrote: »
    I'm not saying get rid of the cinema, but have an additional source to legally watch new films. There will always be a market for the cinema experience, i reckon. Although, to introduce such a service that I propose, I'm sure the cinemas would attempt to boycott it.

    I don't think there's a way to do that without eliminating a point of sale which is the last thing the industry wants.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #105
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,187 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Jumboman wrote: »
    Copyright is an obsolete concept in the 21st century.

    Copyright, barring fundamental societal changes, will never be an obsolete concept. A creator should always have the opportunity to protect their work and profit from it. Current copyright laws, on the other hand, certainly could do with some 21st century revisions, but the core concept is rock solid and vitally important to protect the livelihoods and careers of the artists we love (after all, most great filmmakers aren't making corporate-sponsored blockbusters!).
    Dman001 wrote:
    As much as I enjoy the cinema experience, we shouldn't be limited to the cinema to enjoy the latest movies.

    The tide is shifting in this regard, but a total change is unlikely barring radical shifts in viewer habits. Curzon on Demand and Volta offer many world and independent releases at the same time as their theatrical screenings. iTunes especially in the US regularly has independent releases 'day-and-date' with cinemas, sometimes even 'advance', pre-theatrical availability. A Field in England received a concurrent cinema / TV / BluRay / DVD / VOD release.

    But it's testament to the importance of theatrical releases that we haven't seen a complete shift. Those willing to pay for dedicated VOD releases (and I don't mean Netflix, which would be well down the line in terms of financial significance) are still a small minority - there are few definitive figures for these things, but I'd say the takings of the UK and Irish streaming alternatives are miserable compared to theatrical revenues. The cinema / DVD / BluRay paradigm remains dominant as these are still, by far, the most marketable, popular and financially feasible ways to release film. Even the awareness caused by even a limited theatrical release boosts other sources of income.

    The independent sector that has been most experimental in terms of different release patterns, even though they're still so reliant on theatrical releases. With Hollywood? Well, unless we get to the days when a digital release will rake in $500 million plus in a couple of weeks, then we're quite far away yet.

    On a different note, there has been the argument in this thread and others that disc releases are a waste of plastic. That's IMO not the case for several reasons. High quality releases, such as Criterion and Masters of Cinema, offer a wealth of worthwhile supplementary material that makes the physical product a superior alternative. BluRay discs means that classic films are very often restored and remastered in aid of a new commercial release - a major benefit for all viewers. The markets enjoyed by niche distributors of independent, world and classic films are maintained by DVD sales - that means there's a wider range of films available because of the commercial viability, however small, of these releases. Without the benefit of physical releases and the exposure they provide, many of these films would likely end up unknown, untranslated, neglected or forgotten.


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    #106
    Agent Coulson
    Registered Users Posts: 60,398 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    Court approves request for expedited third party discovery so Lionsgate can discern the identities and locations of the defendants in their case against sites offering pirated versions of the action sequel

    Lions Gate has been granted expedited discovery in their ongoing case against a variety of websites that began offering pirated torrents of “The Expendables 3” weeks before its upcoming theatrical release.

    In a document filed on Wednesday, the U.S. District Court authorized expedited third party discovery to discern the identities and locations of the defendants. These are the owners and operators of several websites including limetorrents.com, billionuploads.com, hulkfile.eu, swankshare.com and dotsemper.com.

    http://www.thewrap.com/lionsgate-granted-expedited-discovery-to-confirm-identities-of-expendables-3-pirates/


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    #107
    ps3lover
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ps3lover


    Well, it looks like The Expendables 3 is going to be a massive box office disaster. Early weekend numbers have it doing about 44% worse than the last one in America for its opening weekend.
    In places like the UK and Austrilia it's opening weekend numbers are down 45% from The Expendables 2. Also in those two places it had 4 day weekends (starting on Thursday) while part 2 started on Friday.
    The numbers are very confusing considering the rating is much lower than Expendables 2 so shouldn't it me making more not less?
    I think some people here in the thread said the leak wouldn't effect business much so what's to blame for the awful box office performance?


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    #108
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    ps3lover wrote: »
    Well, it looks like The Expendables 3 is going to be a massive box office disaster. Early weekend numbers have it doing about 44% worse than the last one in America for its opening weekend.
    In places like the UK and Austrilia it's opening weekend numbers are down 45% from The Expendables 2. Also in those two places it had 4 day weekends (starting on Thursday) while part 2 started on Friday.
    The numbers are very confusing considering the rating is much lower than Expendables 2 so shouldn't it me making more not less?
    I think some people here in the thread said the leak wouldn't effect business much so what's to blame for the awful box office performance?

    The reviews would have an affect. Word of mouth also. I haven't seen a good review for it anywhere.

    The leak will have affected the box office. If it's a turkey then word of mouth is hardly going to increase sales.

    I enjoyed the first one. I saw the second in the cinema and thought it was boring. Wave after wave of bad guys just gets tedious for me. After that if never pay to see the next ones without a great review.

    These actors appeal to people who loved their movies in the 80s. The studios could assume that we're over 12 so and make an action movie like the ones in the 80s. I think the rating works against it. Do 12 year olds want to see a pile of old action heroes. Do the original audience of the 80s movies want to see action that has been tamed down for younger audiences? Id guess the answer to both is no.


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    #109
    ps3lover
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ps3lover


    Loads of movies get terrible reviews and end up doing well. No one seems to like Grown Ups 2 yet it was a big hit. Everyone seems to hate the Transformers movies yet they all earn a hell of a lot of money. Even the number 1 movie at the moment, Turtles, got awful reviews.


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    #110
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    ps3lover wrote: »
    Loads of movies get terrible reviews and end up doing well. No one seems to like Grown Ups 2 yet it was a big hit. Everyone seems to hate the Transformers movies yet they all earn a hell of a lot of money. Even the number 1 movie at the moment, Turtles, got awful reviews.

    The thing is here, they've decided to "grow the brand" by throwing in younger actors, CGI, ditching the gore to get younger people viewing it, etc and thus, jettisoning the 80s nostalgic element which was the appeal of the franchise to begin with.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Expendables franchise is one that largely got along based on the good will of fans whom have fond memories of growing up with Rambo, Terminator, Die Hard and so on. It's not a series which will appeal all the much to teenagers or many young adults who weren't raised on the older action stars, as such dropping that rating to try and appeal to them was counter productive.

    It's estimated that when Rambo came out a few years back there was a lot of talk of how in the US, thousands and thousands of teenagers were buying tickets for other films and then walking into Rambo. It's believed that the loss was between $8-12 million and the lower rating for this was done as they hoped it would entice teenagers in completely missing the point that the reason people teenagers wanted to see Rambo was because of the R rating and the talk of how violent it was.

    Expendables 3 not doing the same business as the past films is hardly surprising but to write it off as a flop after less than 3 days in the cinema is ridiculous. In the US if your film doesn't make double it's budget back it's instantly written off as a flop in most peoples books, doesn't matter if it makes hundreds of millions in profit in the rest of the world. Expendables 3 will end it's theatrical run with a decent figure and when DVD/Blu-Ray sales, television sales and streaming are factored in it's not going to be one of those legendary flops.


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    #112
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    ps3lover wrote: »
    Well, it looks like The Expendables 3 is going to be a massive box office disaster. Early weekend numbers have it doing about 44% worse than the last one in America for its opening weekend.
    In places like the UK and Austrilia it's opening weekend numbers are down 45% from The Expendables 2. Also in those two places it had 4 day weekends (starting on Thursday) while part 2 started on Friday.
    The numbers are very confusing considering the rating is much lower than Expendables 2 so shouldn't it me making more not less?
    I think some people here in the thread said the leak wouldn't effect business much so what's to blame for the awful box office performance?

    Bad films with bad reviews do bad. If it was a good film it would have still done well. Of course piracy is the problem though, there could never be anything wrong with the film.


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    #113
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    ps3lover wrote: »
    Loads of movies get terrible reviews and end up doing well. No one seems to like Grown Ups 2 yet it was a big hit. Everyone seems to hate the Transformers movies yet they all earn a hell of a lot of money. Even the number 1 movie at the moment, Turtles, got awful reviews.

    I'm sure the leak did affect the movie during the opening weekend. People who might not have heard a review and given it the benefit of the doubt have probably heard reviews from people who downloaded it and so avoided it.

    Movies have been available before they're out in the cinema before and they've still done well. Look at Oscar season.

    This movie was leaked before release + is not good = not gonna make money.

    The companies will blame the leak. They have to. They're not going to say "our movie was crap"


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    #114
    ps3lover
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ps3lover


    Deleted User wrote: »

    Expendables 3 not doing the same business as the past films is hardly surprising but to write it off as a flop after less than 3 days in the cinema is ridiculous. In the US if your film doesn't make double it's budget back it's instantly written off as a flop in most peoples books, doesn't matter if it makes hundreds of millions in profit in the rest of the world. Expendables 3 will end it's theatrical run with a decent figure and when DVD/Blu-Ray sales, television sales and streaming are factored in it's not going to be one of those legendary flops.

    It's not just in America it's doing badly, it opened in 40 countries over the weekend and only managed to pull in 15 million which is really bad.
    I think it opens everywhere else next weekend so that will be the real teller but at the moment it's doing very badly.

    I'm sure Lionsgate are going to be going after torrent sites in a big way next week. Have they found out where the initial leak came from yet?


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    #115
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ps3lover wrote: »
    It's not just in America it's doing badly, it opened in 40 countries over the weekend and only managed to pull in 15 million which is really bad.
    I think it opens everywhere else next weekend so that will be the real teller but at the moment it's doing very badly.

    I'm sure Lionsgate are going to be going after torrent sites in a big way next week. Have they found out where the initial leak came from yet?

    It's not doing badly at all, it may be down on what previous entries made but until it's final box office take is seen we can't say if it's a flop or not. Lowering the age rating was a huge mistake and is part of the reason for people not going to see the film. A lot of people will look at the reports of an extended R rated cut coming to Blu-Ray and simply not bother paying to see it in the cinema when they'll be able to buy the film the director intended them to see for only a few euro more.


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    #116
    cloud493
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Bad films with bad reviews do bad. If it was a good film it would have still done well. Of course piracy is the problem though, there could never be anything wrong with the film.

    Thats not true at all. Some of the best reviewed movies do very poorly at the box office. As people have already pointed out, transformers, teenage mutant ninja turtles.


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    #117
    ps3lover
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ps3lover


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Lowering the age rating was a huge mistake and is part of the reason for people not going to see the film.

    That's not what you said earlier.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    Box office won't be hurt that poorly and I would imagine that given the rating this may be the biggest of the series to date.


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    #118
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Was this going against Guardians of the Galaxy on release date?


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    #119
    cloud493
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    No guardians came out 2 weeks earlier, on the 31st July.


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ps3lover wrote: »
    That's not what you said earlier.

    Yes I said I would imagine so but back then there hadn't been interviews with the director talking about the R rated extended cut that he wants to release. If the PG13 version was the definitive version then the dozen or so people I know holding out for the Blu-Ray would being going to see it in the cinema.


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    #121
    ps3lover
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ps3lover


    It looks like they are how going after those who downloaded the movie illegally.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/expendables-3-torrent-downloaders-being-733831


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