Out of Bounds rule and water hazard

Cona · 13-09-2014 7:59pm #1

Hello,
could someone please explain the rules that should apply when you tee off and you lose the ball either in out of bounds or just bushes etc? My understanding was that you can play a provisional ball from the tee again which counts as your third shot which will be played provided you dont find your ball.

Do you also have the option of playing the ball right next to where it was lost taking a dropped shot? I didn't think this was allowed but google seems to throw up results which says it is. Could someone clarify for me please?

Also I presume the exact same rules apply also if you banish your ball into a lake i.e you go back to original place of shot and hit again after taking a penalty shot.

Thanks alot

mike12 · 13-09-2014 8:24pm

Cona wrote: »

Hello,
could someone please explain the rules that should apply when you tee off and you lose the ball either in out of bounds or just bushes etc? My understanding was that you can play a provisional ball from the tee again which counts as your third shot which will be played provided you dont find your ball.

Do you also have the option of playing the ball right next to where it was lost taking a dropped shot? I didn't think this was allowed but google seems to throw up results which says it is. Could someone clarify for me please?

Also I presume the exact same rules apply also if you banish your ball into a lake i.e you go back to original place of shot and hit again after taking a penalty shot.

Thanks alot

For a lost ball and ob play your 3rd from where u hit your first.
Water hazard same as above plus you have the options of dropping back in a line keeping the point of entry and the flag in line, that's for both a red and yellow hazard. For red u also have the option of dropping it within 2 club lengths from the point it entered the hazard.

whizbang · 13-09-2014 11:17pm

Generally you always hit a second from the tee, when you see the first get into trouble. Always declare it a provisional. (can we still call it a Gerry Adams?)

If you see the first ball goes Out Of Bounds, you are still hitting a second ball - but you cant call it a provo, as you know the first is gone.
For a lost ball,- but you don't know its lost, until you have spent 5 minutes looking for it... So therefore play a provo.

GreeBo · 14-09-2014 12:34am

whizbang wrote: »

Generally you always hit a second from the tee, when you see the first get into trouble. Always declare it a provisional. (can we still call it a Gerry Adams?)

If you see the first ball goes Out Of Bounds, you are still hitting a second ball - but you cant call it a provo, as you know the first is gone.
For a lost ball,- but you don't know its lost, until you have spent 5 minutes looking for it... So therefore play a provo.

You can call it a Provo for oob, you only can't when it's in a water hazard or likely in a water hazard.
Other than that you can Provo any shot without unduly delaying play.

Always declare it a Provo, even if you know it's oob, no penalty and you might just find it. If you don't declare it a Provo and you find the first one tough, ball was lost a soon as you put the other one in play (dropped it or Rehit from tee)

Cona · 14-09-2014 7:15pm

Thanks for replies but I'm still not crystal clear. are u entitled to play the ball from where it went out or do u HAVE to play it from where u hit it initially ie stroke and distance penalty?

As for the water hazard, is it a stroke and distance penalty also or are you entitled to play from the point of entry of hazard?

GreeBo · 14-09-2014 7:24pm

Oob the ball is gone, go back to where it was hit from, no other options.

Water hazard has stroke and distance, or back in line with flag and entry point.
Lateral hazard has additional option of 2 clubs from every point, no nearer hole.
There may also be a drop zone for water hazard.

Cona · 14-09-2014 7:37pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Oob the ball is gone, go back to where it was hit from, no other options.

Water hazard has stroke and distance, or back in line with flag and entry point.
Lateral hazard has additional option of 2 clubs from every point, no nearer hole.
There may also be a drop zone for water hazard.

perfect thanks greebo!!!

TheDoc · 15-09-2014 12:14pm

Am I right in saying you can declare a ball lost, and play another ball declaring it as your active.

Case in point, yesterday playing partner fired a massive slice into a deep treeline. He came back up to the tee and declared the first ball lost, and that he was declaring this his active ball.

I understood the point and thought it was fine, didn't think there was any rule breach. He wasn't arsed going looking, and from a playing point of view, it was going to be a severe hack and slash to get it out from that deep.

Another playing partner queried what he was doing. And said he couldn't do that. That he had to delcare the second ball a provisional, and we had to look for the first ball.

They quizzed my interpretation, and I felt that he was fine in declaring it a lost ball. If we can't find the ball (unlikely) he would be playing this secondary ball anyway. So if he wants to declare is lost, that's perfectly fine.

I've always been under the impression you can declare a ball lost without looking, and play a new active ball.

Norfolk Enchants_ · 15-09-2014 12:35pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Am I right in saying you can declare a ball lost, and play another ball declaring it as your active.

Case in point, yesterday playing partner fired a massive slice into a deep treeline. He came back up to the tee and declared the first ball lost, and that he was declaring this his active ball.

I understood the point and thought it was fine, didn't think there was any rule breach. He wasn't arsed going looking, and from a playing point of view, it was going to be a severe hack and slash to get it out from that deep.

Another playing partner queried what he was doing. And said he couldn't do that. That he had to delcare the second ball a provisional, and we had to look for the first ball.

They quizzed my interpretation, and I felt that he was fine in declaring it a lost ball. If we can't find the ball (unlikely) he would be playing this secondary ball anyway. So if he wants to declare is lost, that's perfectly fine.

I've always been under the impression you can declare a ball lost without looking, and play a new active ball.

Abit long winded but essentially you were/are correct, it's as simple as this though if you do not declare your second ball a provisional it automatically becomes the ball in play.

alxmorgan · 15-09-2014 12:36pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Am I right in saying you can declare a ball lost, and play another ball declaring it as your active.

Case in point, yesterday playing partner fired a massive slice into a deep treeline. He came back up to the tee and declared the first ball lost, and that he was declaring this his active ball.

I understood the point and thought it was fine, didn't think there was any rule breach. He wasn't arsed going looking, and from a playing point of view, it was going to be a severe hack and slash to get it out from that deep.

Another playing partner queried what he was doing. And said he couldn't do that. That he had to delcare the second ball a provisional, and we had to look for the first ball.

They quizzed my interpretation, and I felt that he was fine in declaring it a lost ball. If we can't find the ball (unlikely) he would be playing this secondary ball anyway. So if he wants to declare is lost, that's perfectly fine.

I've always been under the impression you can declare a ball lost without looking, and play a new active ball.

If he hits a second ball without declaring it provisional it is the ball in play and the first one is no longer the ball in play regardless if he finds it or not.

And he can declare the ball unplayable and retake the shot in any case as 3 off the tee. I knocked my drive 10 yards last week into heavy rough. Found it but decided to retee for my 3rd

GreeBo · 15-09-2014 12:41pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Am I right in saying you can declare a ball lost, and play another ball declaring it as your active.

Case in point, yesterday playing partner fired a massive slice into a deep treeline. He came back up to the tee and declared the first ball lost, and that he was declaring this his active ball.

I understood the point and thought it was fine, didn't think there was any rule breach. He wasn't arsed going looking, and from a playing point of view, it was going to be a severe hack and slash to get it out from that deep.

Another playing partner queried what he was doing. And said he couldn't do that. That he had to delcare the second ball a provisional, and we had to look for the first ball.

They quizzed my interpretation, and I felt that he was fine in declaring it a lost ball. If we can't find the ball (unlikely) he would be playing this secondary ball anyway. So if he wants to declare is lost, that's perfectly fine.

I've always been under the impression you can declare a ball lost without looking, and play a new active ball.

Nope, you cannot declare a ball lost, ever.
A ball is deemed lost if not found and identified within 5 mins or another ball is put into play.

You dont have to look for it, but you cannot stop someone else looking.

TheDoc · 15-09-2014 2:46pm

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Abit long winded but essentially you were/are correct, it's as simple as this though if you do not declare your second ball a provisional it automatically becomes the ball in play.

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, you cannot declare a ball lost, ever.
A ball is deemed lost if not found and identified within 5 mins or another ball is put into play.

You dont have to look for it, but you cannot stop someone else looking.

Norfolk thats why it was long winded. He didn't "fail to declare provisional". He very openly stated to us, his playing partners, he was not going to look for his first ball and was declaring it lost.

Therefore hit his second without declaring provisional, but had outlined he was not searching for his first.

Ergo the point Greebo is responding too. And that's interesting.

so to be clear exactly what happened

Player hits ball massively into deep treeline
After groups hits, he declares his first ball as lost. And that he intends to strike another ball, for his 3rd shot, and to be his active ball.
Another player disputes this. Saying he must play as provisional, and we need to go look for the first ball

I interpret the players lost ball call, as being that he wants to maintain the pace of play, or that he realises he has no chance of a score if he finds it.

I'm asked, and state while I'm not 100% sure, I would imagine he can declare that ball lost and re-tee, playing three, and carry on the hole.

On the basis that he could be sly about it, not call provisional, and then call himself up on a rulebreak and his second ball would be active. Therefore gaining the outcome he wants.

And I guess that begs the question from me here. If I hit a wonky shot into deep trees, can I just declare it lost, and re-tee playing my 3rd from the teebox, and carr yon?

TheDoc · 15-09-2014 2:51pm

As a somewhat seperate point. The player who objected, went and searched for the ball. To the somewhat disamusement of the player who's ball he was searching for.

He was having a horrible round, and I think he didn't want to hold up play anymore, and why he said he wasn't going to look for his ball. But it created a **** atmosphere for the rest of the round.

And the guy who went looking on his own, to try find another players ball, had some of the worst golf etiquitte I had ever seen on a course. So I pretty much to myself felt any rule call he made would be wildly incorrect and rubbish.

alxmorgan · 15-09-2014 3:15pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Norfolk thats why it was long winded. He didn't "fail to declare provisional". He very openly stated to us, his playing partners, he was not going to look for his first ball and was declaring it lost.

Therefore hit his second without declaring provisional, but had outlined he was not searching for his first.

Ergo the point Greebo is responding too. And that's interesting.

so to be clear exactly what happened
Player hits ball massively into deep treeline

After groups hits, he declares his first ball as lost. And that he intends to strike another ball, for his 3rd shot, and to be his active ball.

Another player disputes this. Saying he must play as provisional, and we need to go look for the first ball

I interpret the players lost ball call, as being that he wants to maintain the pace of play, or that he realises he has no chance of a score if he finds it.

I'm asked, and state while I'm not 100% sure, I would imagine he can declare that ball lost and re-tee, playing three, and carry on the hole.

On the basis that he could be sly about it, not call provisional, and then call himself up on a rulebreak and his second ball would be active. Therefore gaining the outcome he wants.

And I guess that begs the question from me here. If I hit a wonky shot into deep trees, can I just declare it lost, and re-tee playing my 3rd from the teebox, and carr yon?

Absolutely. (although you cannot declare it lost as Greebo says above). Proceed under this rule :

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Ball-Unplayable.aspx

Note : "play a ball from where your last shot was played"

And basically the guy who said you have to play a provisional and search is 100% wrong. Couldn't be more wrong

alxmorgan · 15-09-2014 3:16pm

TheDoc wrote: »

As a somewhat seperate point. The player who objected, went and searched for the ball. To the somewhat disamusement of the player who's ball he was searching for.

He was having a horrible round, and I think he didn't want to hold up play anymore, and why he said he wasn't going to look for his ball. But it created a **** atmosphere for the rest of the round.

And the guy who went looking on his own, to try find another players ball, had some of the worst golf etiquitte I had ever seen on a course. So I pretty much to myself felt any rule call he made would be wildly incorrect and rubbish.

Acting the muppet that was. Thing is, given he was wrong as established, even if he found it all he can do is return it to the player who lost it and allow him to carry on playing with the active ball i.e. his second off the tee.

slave1 · 15-09-2014 4:03pm

He should have said nothing and just hit a second, if the other guy wanted to go look then fine but it was not the ball in play and he could just pocket it and at least not have lost a ball...

GreeBo · 15-09-2014 4:44pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Norfolk thats why it was long winded. He didn't "fail to declare provisional". He very openly stated to us, his playing partners, he was not going to look for his first ball and was declaring it lost.

Therefore hit his second without declaring provisional, but had outlined he was not searching for his first.

Ergo the point Greebo is responding too. And that's interesting.

so to be clear exactly what happened
Player hits ball massively into deep treeline

After groups hits, he declares his first ball as lost. And that he intends to strike another ball, for his 3rd shot, and to be his active ball.

Another player disputes this. Saying he must play as provisional, and we need to go look for the first ball

I interpret the players lost ball call, as being that he wants to maintain the pace of play, or that he realises he has no chance of a score if he finds it.

I'm asked, and state while I'm not 100% sure, I would imagine he can declare that ball lost and re-tee, playing three, and carry on the hole.

On the basis that he could be sly about it, not call provisional, and then call himself up on a rulebreak and his second ball would be active. Therefore gaining the outcome he wants.

And I guess that begs the question from me here. If I hit a wonky shot into deep trees, can I just declare it lost, and re-tee playing my 3rd from the teebox, and carr yon?

So the only incorrect bit is that you dont have to declare it a provo. If you dont then the original ball *is* lost. But you dont declare it lost.
However you can also declare a provo, cream it and then just not look for the first one, but in a match for example, another player can look for your ball. If they do that before you make a stroke at the provo from a point past where the original is likely to be (whew!) then tough, either play it or declare it unplayable, the provo is no more.

TheDoc · 15-09-2014 4:45pm

Yeah that's what I thought. Sorry if it was originally ambiguous, the player who hit the shot said he wasn't going to look, no one else.

I was pretty sure I was right in saying he could do it. I've done it myself in the past. But the point is that it's being honest. As slave1 said he could have said nothing, fired away , and pulled himself up on the rule and go the same result. But I personally would prefer being honest about it rather then snake around it.

slave1 · 15-09-2014 4:48pm

Sounds like it was a time saving tactic too so rightly or wrongly there was no malicious intent

TheDoc · 15-09-2014 4:50pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So the only incorrect bit is that you dont have to declare it a provo. If you dont then the original ball *is* lost. But you dont declare it lost.
However you can also declare a provo, cream it and then just not look for the first one, but in a match for example, another player can look for your ball. If they do that before you make a stroke at the provo from a point past where the original is likely to be (whew!) then tough, either play it or declare it unplayable, the provo is no more.

It would be interesting to see a sprint down the fairway between two matchplay partners.

I take it he declared it lost, so that a) We knew not to bother looking and b) He was being clear in what his intentions were.

GreeBo · 15-09-2014 4:54pm

TheDoc wrote: »

It would be interesting to see a sprint down the fairway between two matchplay partners.

I take it he declared it lost, so that a) We knew not to bother looking and b) He was being clear in what his intentions were.

The only intention you need to be clear on is "provisional" or not.
If you don't make it clear that its a provisional then its a 2nd ball in play under stroke and distance penalty.

I have seen instances where spectators for the opposition go searching for an opponents ball and spectators for the team who hit the ball are all busy "looking" somewhere else.

whizbang · 15-09-2014 11:41pm

I think the wording you need to use is 'unplayable' rather than 'lost'

The rules clearly state a ball cannot be declared lost. It can be declared unplayable (anywhere, anytime, for any reason)

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 9:08am

whizbang wrote: »

I think the wording you need to use is 'unplayable' rather than 'lost'

The rules clearly state a ball cannot be declared lost. It can be declared unplayable (anywhere, anytime, for any reason)

Incorrect, you have to find a ball before you can declare it unplayable.
Decision 28/2

You don't use any wording or make any declaration, your actions are what make a ball lost or not.
Golf doesnt want a player to ever have two balls in play allowing them to choose, hence you make your provisional declaration (or not) before you go looking.

Slicemeister · 16-09-2014 9:55am

What is the right etiquette as playing your third off the box? I stand up, push it into the silage, walk off tee to let partners play their teeshots. They've all played and number 2 is 15 yards down the fairway only I want to play a third without looking a plum.

"I'm playing my third there lads!"
"A provisional?"
"No"
"But your first is over there?"

Must I deem it lost verbally? I don't want to, I want the satisfaction of him finding my ball so I can thank him and put it in my pocket.
Happened to me once where an obnoxious so and so found my first where I hadn't called provisional and unfortunately I played it to his rules.

newport2 · 16-09-2014 10:04am

GreeBo wrote: »

You can call it a Provo for oob, you only can't when it's in a water hazard or likely in a water hazard.
Other than that you can Provo any shot without unduly delaying play.

Always declare it a Provo, even if you know it's oob, no penalty and you might just find it. If you don't declare it a Provo and you find the first one tough, ball was lost a soon as you put the other one in play (dropped it or Rehit from tee)

A lot of players don't get the point above. Even some of the pros:

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html

"There was a high profile incident concerning this Rule back in 2004 when Greg Norman told his fellow competitors, Fred Couples and Charles Howell lll, that he was going to play a provisional tee shot for his original ball that he thought might be lost in a water hazard. As explained above the Rules only permit a provisional to be played if the original ball is believed to be lost or out of bounds, not when it is in a water hazard. Ironically, Norman found his original ball in a bunker. He then picked-up the ball that he thought was a provisional from the middle of the fairway and played from the bunker. The Rules Official accompanying the group, Slugger White, told Norman that he would have to return and drop a ball where his second tee shot had come to rest. Including the penalties for playing a wrong ball from the bunker and lifting a ball that was in play, he would have been playing his seventh shot to the green. "He chose not to do that," White said. "He said, 'I'm disqualified,' and left.” Surprisingly, Fred Couples said that he also was not aware of this Rule. Another case of tour professionals not knowing the Rules as well as they should, which always surprises me when I think about how much money can be riding on one or two extra strokes over a four-day competition."

alxmorgan · 16-09-2014 10:16am

Slicemeister wrote: »

What is the right etiquette as playing your third off the box? I stand up, push it into the silage, walk off tee to let partners play their teeshots. They've all played and number 2 is 15 yards down the fairway only I want to play a third without looking a plum.

"I'm playing my third there lads!"
"A provisional?"
"No"
"But your first is over there?"

Must I deem it lost verbally? I don't want to, I want the satisfaction of him finding my ball so I can thank him and put it in my pocket.
Happened to me once where an obnoxious so and so found my first where I hadn't called provisional and unfortunately I played it to his rules.

You do not (cannot) have to deem it lost. Your first line is correct. I'm playing my third is all you need say. You may get some questions due to people not knowing the rule but so be it.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 2:49pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

What is the right etiquette as playing your third off the box? I stand up, push it into the silage, walk off tee to let partners play their teeshots. They've all played and number 2 is 15 yards down the fairway only I want to play a third without looking a plum.

"I'm playing my third there lads!"
"A provisional?"
"No"
"But your first is over there?"

Must I deem it lost verbally? I don't want to, I want the satisfaction of him finding my ball so I can thank him and put it in my pocket.
Happened to me once where an obnoxious so and so found my first where I hadn't called provisional and unfortunately I played it to his rules.

If you hit another ball without declaring it a provisional then the first ball is gone, irrespective of finding it or not. You dont declare it a 3rd as there isnt such a thing, there is only a provisional or not.

If someone in my group says "I'm hitting another" I will always question if its a provisional or not before they hit.

Slicemeister · 16-09-2014 3:06pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If you hit another ball without declaring it a provisional then the first ball is gone, irrespective of finding it or not. You dont declare it a 3rd as there isnt such a thing, there is only a provisional or not.

If someone in my group says "I'm hitting another" I will always question if its a provisional or not before they hit.

Why wouldn't it be my third? I'm inadvertently deeming my first gone by not declaring a provisional.
If I say " I'm hitting another" it leaves the door open for your question. Try to keep it hospitable as opposed to strained.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 3:35pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be my third? I'm inadvertently deeming my first gone by not declaring a provisional.
If I say " I'm hitting another" it leaves the door open for your question. Try to keep it hospitable as opposed to strained.

I know that it would be, but I'm making sure that you know it would be too!
Otherwise people find the first ball and attempt to play it.

Slicemeister · 16-09-2014 3:46pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I know that it would be, but I'm making sure that you know it would be too!
Otherwise people find the first ball and attempt to play it.

Yeah there is that. In that instance I'd pull them after they've hit their " lost " ball. Or before if I think they genuinely don't know, or their first offence in the round...

Either way, " I'm hitting my third" suffices to deem a ball lost. An aul fella asked once were it a provisional I was playing I told him to turn up his hearing aids. He asked me what I said so I just said "no".

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 3:48pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Yeah there is that. In that instance I'd pull them after they've hit their " lost " ball. Or before if I think they genuinely don't know, or their first offence in the round...

Either way, " I'm hitting my third" suffices to deem a ball lost. An aul fella asked once were it a provisional I was playing I told him to turn up his hearing aids. He asked me what I said so I just said "no".

No point in waiting until its an issue, Id rather give them the chance to either learn the rule or realise that I know it.

Now in a match on the other hand...

Out of Bounds rule and water hazard

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